Non Punitive reporting in EK. Does it exist?
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Non Punitive reporting in EK. Does it exist?
I heard some very disturbing rumours today and feel compelled to ask if they are true. I hope not, but here goes:
a. Raising an ASR can lead to a formal letter against you.
b. Having said formal letter on file can mean loss of profit share for the period that it is on file (if HR agree to punitive punishment)?
c. If you've been 'charged' with an offence, the disciplinary '5 days before' to prepare for your 'case/defence' can NOW be reduced to 24hrs (for Pilots only, not for the remainder of the company staff)?
Any truth in any of these rumours please?
They are disturbing if true, but I offer my apologies if they are rubbish and for taking up you time.
Thanks
KD
a. Raising an ASR can lead to a formal letter against you.
b. Having said formal letter on file can mean loss of profit share for the period that it is on file (if HR agree to punitive punishment)?
c. If you've been 'charged' with an offence, the disciplinary '5 days before' to prepare for your 'case/defence' can NOW be reduced to 24hrs (for Pilots only, not for the remainder of the company staff)?
Any truth in any of these rumours please?
They are disturbing if true, but I offer my apologies if they are rubbish and for taking up you time.
Thanks
KD
Have heard same, rumour has it both the JNB go-around guys have had disciplinary hearings , with letters going on file.... could be BS , and it does go against whats written in FOM...
Penalty-Free Reporting of Occurrences or
Incidents
◊ Flight Safety fully supports the Corporate
‘Penalty Free Safety Reporting Policy’ in
pursuit of an open and non-threatening
reporting culture.
but then.......................
Penalty-Free Reporting of Occurrences or
Incidents
◊ Flight Safety fully supports the Corporate
‘Penalty Free Safety Reporting Policy’ in
pursuit of an open and non-threatening
reporting culture.
but then.......................
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I believe there is more to the JNB incident than just a go-around, including a severe altitude bust which the SA authorities are looking in to. However, I believe the ASR issue at EK is being incorrectly handled leading to a fear of being hauled in,and therefore weekly some ridiculous reports which is counterproductive to the true intention.
You are correct, it was not a simple go-around. The question should be asked tho' why should a crew who make an error, or is that a slip, get disciplinary action??? surely penalty free reporting is to try and find out reason for error,or slip..Not too prosecute or is that persecute crew ??
Have also heard that HR are working out a fine system for naughty pilots..ie forget to sign tech-log ---- 500dhs please..ker ching...hope someone is having a larf....
Have also heard that HR are working out a fine system for naughty pilots..ie forget to sign tech-log ---- 500dhs please..ker ching...hope someone is having a larf....
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The rumour about the Jo'burg guys is true. They both had a warning letter put on file. Apparently the Captain had his removed after some lobbying. I don't know about the F/O.
This has naf all to do with reporting though. With the amount of monitoring 'big brother' does at EK, it was going to be discovered anyway, not to mention the SA authorities looking into it. We do have a caveat in the FOM about non punitive reporting which basically says that if you make a stupid/deliberate screw up, writing an ASR won't absolve you of the responsibility, which is fair enough I think.
Still it says a lot about EK's culture. Remebering the debacle after the last Jo'burg incident where the company immediately tried to use the tech crew as scape goats.
The recent incident had something to do with the peculiarities of the 'bus and intercepting G/S from above. I am not familiar, but apparently it is one of those airbus things that can get you if you are not careful. Once again I would suggest that the first point of call should be the training department for both the crew involved and the investigating committee.
This has naf all to do with reporting though. With the amount of monitoring 'big brother' does at EK, it was going to be discovered anyway, not to mention the SA authorities looking into it. We do have a caveat in the FOM about non punitive reporting which basically says that if you make a stupid/deliberate screw up, writing an ASR won't absolve you of the responsibility, which is fair enough I think.
Still it says a lot about EK's culture. Remebering the debacle after the last Jo'burg incident where the company immediately tried to use the tech crew as scape goats.
The recent incident had something to do with the peculiarities of the 'bus and intercepting G/S from above. I am not familiar, but apparently it is one of those airbus things that can get you if you are not careful. Once again I would suggest that the first point of call should be the training department for both the crew involved and the investigating committee.
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The reduction to 24hrs is correct. You will be invited in for further investigation of an incident to find the panel of 2 or 3 for your disciplinary hearing. Any defence you offer will more than likely be ignored. Keep discovering.
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What a load of BS some of you guys spout!
Having read the ASR, the guys screwed up plain and simple, the SA authorities had already MOR'd the flight, so the guys had no choice but to file an ASR.
Remember, just because you file an ASR, does not absolve you from responsibility!
ie. Yes I know I ran out of fuel and glided onto a motorway, only killing 5 pax, but its alright because I filed an ASR so I should be let off and given a medal and an immediate pay rise!! And if the company lambasts me for it, well then they must have a shyte safety culture.........
Come on peeps grow up, real life isn't like that........Take some responsibility (and before anyone says it, yes I do screw from time to time up like the best of them!)
Having read the ASR, the guys screwed up plain and simple, the SA authorities had already MOR'd the flight, so the guys had no choice but to file an ASR.
Remember, just because you file an ASR, does not absolve you from responsibility!
ie. Yes I know I ran out of fuel and glided onto a motorway, only killing 5 pax, but its alright because I filed an ASR so I should be let off and given a medal and an immediate pay rise!! And if the company lambasts me for it, well then they must have a shyte safety culture.........
Come on peeps grow up, real life isn't like that........Take some responsibility (and before anyone says it, yes I do screw from time to time up like the best of them!)
Ok I'll bite,
Olbsaplop -- I think you have missed the idea of what a flight safety culture is.....the more pressure you put on people not to bolloex up the more
a-- better they get , or
b-- more likely to screw up worrying about what
will happen to them if they get something
wrong...or
c-- couldnt care less as they are already working
there notice...
I think you will find that the answer is probably b, or at least that is what I think happens with a punitive method of "flight safety".
Either way this does not come from the Flight Safety boys, this comes long after they have done there analysis.....
Olbsaplop -- I think you have missed the idea of what a flight safety culture is.....the more pressure you put on people not to bolloex up the more
a-- better they get , or
b-- more likely to screw up worrying about what
will happen to them if they get something
wrong...or
c-- couldnt care less as they are already working
there notice...
I think you will find that the answer is probably b, or at least that is what I think happens with a punitive method of "flight safety".
Either way this does not come from the Flight Safety boys, this comes long after they have done there analysis.....
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Oblaaspop
Couldn't agree more. There are some people out there quick to blame others for their own mistakes. To be honest, I don't know WHAT the policy is regarding calling in people to ask questions but when there is a major balls up, the sooner the Company gets the answers the better it is for all concerned. When the phone calls start coming in, Emirates needs to give answers and they can only do that when they know what's happened.
With regards to the safety culture in this Company, well, there are a lot worse out there. In the time i've spent here, i've had no feeling of fear regarding any reports and some of the rumours above are just that. "Filing ASR gives you a warning on your file". Are you for real? Complete utter tosh. As are the idiots out there filing ASR's for nothing other than " just to cover my back".
Greater than 250kt below 5000 in the CLIMB at ATC request?
Forgetting to put the landing lights on below 10,000ft?
Where are the safety implications? Stick it on the voyage report.
Perhaps more effort should be placed on these issues during Command interviews than on recalling the max ZFW/MTOW/MLW of every aircraft!
BYMONEK
Couldn't agree more. There are some people out there quick to blame others for their own mistakes. To be honest, I don't know WHAT the policy is regarding calling in people to ask questions but when there is a major balls up, the sooner the Company gets the answers the better it is for all concerned. When the phone calls start coming in, Emirates needs to give answers and they can only do that when they know what's happened.
With regards to the safety culture in this Company, well, there are a lot worse out there. In the time i've spent here, i've had no feeling of fear regarding any reports and some of the rumours above are just that. "Filing ASR gives you a warning on your file". Are you for real? Complete utter tosh. As are the idiots out there filing ASR's for nothing other than " just to cover my back".
Greater than 250kt below 5000 in the CLIMB at ATC request?
Forgetting to put the landing lights on below 10,000ft?
Where are the safety implications? Stick it on the voyage report.
Perhaps more effort should be placed on these issues during Command interviews than on recalling the max ZFW/MTOW/MLW of every aircraft!
BYMONEK
BYMONEK
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BYMONEK, to clarify my above reply, my answer was regarding the revised disciplinary hearing regulations. It was not a comment on ASR filing or otherwise, and the results of doing that. I have also heard of incidents, but do not know enough regarding them to comment.
Got to say I agree with you about the spurious ASR filing. Many are just rubbish. I have also heard the comments that people file them to 'cover their a***'. That being the case, I guess the question needs to be asked why individuals feel like that. I have not seen that behaviour in previous companies. I think some of that comes from the QAR programme where the line drivers are not told what parameters are being recorded. In other organisations, the QAR parameters are known, not hidden.
As for command interviews, you are spot on. A couple of individuals running those really are in need of a reality check, but that is a whole other topic.
Got to say I agree with you about the spurious ASR filing. Many are just rubbish. I have also heard the comments that people file them to 'cover their a***'. That being the case, I guess the question needs to be asked why individuals feel like that. I have not seen that behaviour in previous companies. I think some of that comes from the QAR programme where the line drivers are not told what parameters are being recorded. In other organisations, the QAR parameters are known, not hidden.
As for command interviews, you are spot on. A couple of individuals running those really are in need of a reality check, but that is a whole other topic.
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Oblaaspop and Bymonek,
Hear Hear!! It never ceases to amaze me how often I read about someone being nearly unstable due to ATC vectors. Or an 'unexpected' tailwind on 12L at midnight lead to us going round.
Now we all screw up but if it is trivial it goes on the voyage report. If it is more serious and an ASR is called for then the company legally have to get involved to get to the bottom of the matter. It is their responsibility!!
As to preparing a defence if it is a really serious event, can you not just 'lawyer up' at the appropriate moment if things are starting to go awry? That might make for more careful and thoughtful handling from the management.
Ghost
Hear Hear!! It never ceases to amaze me how often I read about someone being nearly unstable due to ATC vectors. Or an 'unexpected' tailwind on 12L at midnight lead to us going round.
Now we all screw up but if it is trivial it goes on the voyage report. If it is more serious and an ASR is called for then the company legally have to get involved to get to the bottom of the matter. It is their responsibility!!
As to preparing a defence if it is a really serious event, can you not just 'lawyer up' at the appropriate moment if things are starting to go awry? That might make for more careful and thoughtful handling from the management.
Ghost
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Ever heard of Ocean Air they have ASR's. If you submit one to their safety department they will ponder it then call you in for a chat to get all the facts. They then send a summary to their operations management who decide if more needs to be done. If so they may call you in for another chat, if you have been negligent, delibrately careless or just plain incompetent you will face discipline or even the sack. But...if its one of those switch pigs that gets every one from time to time they will ask the question how can we stop our boys from doing this again? They look at training, SOPs and ask the offender to write about it in their Safety mag and they send the mag to all the other major airlines so their guys can learn as well.
There's another airline, Desert Air similar to Ocean Air in a lot of ways, their Safety Dept works pretty much the same, it is staffed by dedicated guys who believe in what they are doing. They too will send an ASR summary to their operations management, who may call you in for a chat. "I see you got caught by that old switch pig son" "Pressure from above, you know the deal, so I am going to have to punish you" So the offender loses some pay/leave and wonders why he didn't know about the switch pig if it has happened before. Desert Air don't print it in their safety mag because they don't have one, but they tell their guys that last month we only had 4 switch pigs. They don't tell other airlines as that would look bad.
Both airlines have very good safety departments, but which one has the safety culture?
(This post is entirely fiction, any resemblance to an airline either currently operating or previously so, is pure coincidence)
There's another airline, Desert Air similar to Ocean Air in a lot of ways, their Safety Dept works pretty much the same, it is staffed by dedicated guys who believe in what they are doing. They too will send an ASR summary to their operations management, who may call you in for a chat. "I see you got caught by that old switch pig son" "Pressure from above, you know the deal, so I am going to have to punish you" So the offender loses some pay/leave and wonders why he didn't know about the switch pig if it has happened before. Desert Air don't print it in their safety mag because they don't have one, but they tell their guys that last month we only had 4 switch pigs. They don't tell other airlines as that would look bad.
Both airlines have very good safety departments, but which one has the safety culture?
(This post is entirely fiction, any resemblance to an airline either currently operating or previously so, is pure coincidence)
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MAX AB
True, where it not for the fact that every week we receive feedback via crew portal and about 60 ASR s. That is if people still bother to read and learn from them.
However,I do egree that the Company could do more to improve the culture that exsists. The Company has its own findings from last years Jburg, yet we are left in the dark as to its conclusions. Perhaps if we dont say anything the problem will go away. This is when Pilots faith in the system is tested. This is simply not good enough. Emirates should have enough confidence in its training to get these guys back on line flying. Why do we need to wait for the S.A. authorities to publish their own findings. Because if they find fault with E.K then pilots are dissmissed and if it's not Emirates fault, then guys are re-instated. Simple! But wrong!
BYMONEK
Agree with your posting. The problem is that Behaviour breeds behaviour so you get many guys putting in unnecessary ASR's because they want to cover their backsides.
Believe Brother
Personally, I don't feel that we need to know what the parameters are regarding the QAR. If we follow the sop's, that's our guidance. If we don't then you have to justify that.
Safe flying
Harry
True, where it not for the fact that every week we receive feedback via crew portal and about 60 ASR s. That is if people still bother to read and learn from them.
However,I do egree that the Company could do more to improve the culture that exsists. The Company has its own findings from last years Jburg, yet we are left in the dark as to its conclusions. Perhaps if we dont say anything the problem will go away. This is when Pilots faith in the system is tested. This is simply not good enough. Emirates should have enough confidence in its training to get these guys back on line flying. Why do we need to wait for the S.A. authorities to publish their own findings. Because if they find fault with E.K then pilots are dissmissed and if it's not Emirates fault, then guys are re-instated. Simple! But wrong!
BYMONEK
Agree with your posting. The problem is that Behaviour breeds behaviour so you get many guys putting in unnecessary ASR's because they want to cover their backsides.
Believe Brother
Personally, I don't feel that we need to know what the parameters are regarding the QAR. If we follow the sop's, that's our guidance. If we don't then you have to justify that.
Safe flying
Harry
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What safety culture apart from the odd discipline shock, mate I can't see any safety culture, all I see is flight deck raising major issues and f all done about them.
If the training does not emulate the limits an operation can be subbjected to, there is no way anyway will know where the switch pig is.
And as long as limits are limited by insurance and not by operational limits, managed by imbeciles who marry right and fly like pigs, you will never get the right idea.
JNB was a perfect example of that and until now little has come out along this line to clarify, it s all hush hush as usual, the lights are on but no one is home.
We call it the wodden tongue, toc, toc, toc.
Bymonek,
Comparing standards here to lower ones elswhere does not bring us any closer to the answer!
If the training does not emulate the limits an operation can be subbjected to, there is no way anyway will know where the switch pig is.
And as long as limits are limited by insurance and not by operational limits, managed by imbeciles who marry right and fly like pigs, you will never get the right idea.
JNB was a perfect example of that and until now little has come out along this line to clarify, it s all hush hush as usual, the lights are on but no one is home.
We call it the wodden tongue, toc, toc, toc.
Bymonek,
Comparing standards here to lower ones elswhere does not bring us any closer to the answer!
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amx10 - seems you've got the wooden tongue this afternoon, not sure what you're trying to say
Harry you're right - complete nonsense some of these ASR's, and if you follow SOP's, you'll never have a problem.
Harry you're right - complete nonsense some of these ASR's, and if you follow SOP's, you'll never have a problem.