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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

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Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

Old 3rd Oct 2019, 22:20
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by vp89 View Post
Yap,
I finished my flight training six years ago, fortunately without any debts. I have applied to numerous companies, even attended interviews at the same companies for couple of times during this six year period. Revalidate my ratings every year. And still nothing - fail final interviews usually. It looks recruiters do not like me. But having a backup plan is a good idea and allows me to develop myself in other topic. And most important!!! Telling everyone else (apart of aviation industry) that you are a pilot still drops their jaw and opens many doors.

As couple of people said before, piloting is not necessary very interesting job, unless you enter flight testing industry. From the money perspective, there are plenty of jobs requiring decision making skills (that you as a pilot possess) that would allow you to earn much more than pilots do. Just open your mind.

All the best
If you fail the final interview then maybe an idea to go to interview training. Or do more research about aviation interviews.
I did do research and found many questions. Then find for yourself answers how you would answer them.

But those trainings might help. Because the rest you seem to do ok then.

Dont give up and improve your weeknesses. There are techniques. I did and managed to pass interviews this way.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 18:02
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: London
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vp89 try this for final interviews AIRLINE PREP CO UK or go to a local Uni and and join their career fares. Plenty of schools, colleges offer free interviewing at graduation time in particular. Practice at home at the kitchen table with a suit on so ur relaxed and comfortable with friends and family, write your answers out for questions etc. There is some technical book that everyone has, cant remember the name of it, read that ace pilot technical maybe or similar name.

yap800 here is free pilot event: PILOT CAREERS LIVE

Same as anything in life if you quit you defo wont get it, ideally you should get a job within 1 or 2 renewals. I still keep my licence and renewed my IR a while back, am rusty, takes time and money to keep it current at £350 an hr, even a solicitor doesnt charge that much!

I will do everything in my power to stop my children to pursue this career, I would be very disappointed if they did want to do it, as I have seen the chaos and instability it creates and I dont want to deal with that in retirement!
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Old 5th Oct 2019, 18:46
  #43 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
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Originally Posted by Bryan_Air View Post
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I will do everything in my power to stop my children to pursue this career, I would be very disappointed if they did want to do it, as I have seen the chaos and instability it creates and I dont want to deal with that in retirement!
I am curious. What was the appeal in the first place to embark on this occupation?
Only BA being LHR based gives stability. The roster style however is something you need to adapt to.
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Old 5th Oct 2019, 22:02
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 5
About how much do medical and Ir renewals cost?
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Old 6th Oct 2019, 18:03
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: London
Posts: 13
@parkfell mix of childhood dream/early mid life crisis/grass is greener....

@andyh009 medical annual cost of £200-300 and IR £400- well £3,000 (if you let a school rip you off), can alternate between SIM and aircraft each year and sim often cheaper. As always shop around.....
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Old 7th Oct 2019, 00:21
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 2
I canít quite work out this thread.

people whoíve spent a fortune learning to fly saying , ď actually there are many other things pay better ď. Is this just bitterness or was getting into flying only to earn a ď reasonable ď salary ? If so your motivation was way off. If money is where itís at do ^^^^ what he said and fix gutters - sounds really exciting and for filling doesnít it ?

A lot of pilots ď self select ď then spent an obscene amount on training TR etc. Bear in mind, you may also the tests but you may not ah e the personality a company wants . That being said Iíve noticed more pilots who donít fit the ď stable extrovert ď persona sneaking into aviation.

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Old 10th Oct 2019, 14:13
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Gods Own Country
Posts: 116
I started flying at 16 And finished all my training at 24 with first time flight test passes and a low 80’s average pass mark on the ATPL’s including 3 failures.

£70k & 100% self funded the training by working 70-90 hour weeks over 3 jobs.

3 months later I was shotdown in flames at a Ryanair interview after lying about passing all my exams first time over the phone (not sorry I did it, who wants to be assessed by an admin person on the phone from Amsterdam?)

Another 3 months went by and I had an interview for the Jet2 pilot apprentice. Passed then interview no problem but messed up the sim. My fault, but I didn’t have the cash to pay for sim prep

After another 3 months of no joy and listening to “oh my neighbours grandson went to CTC and now he’s got a job with EasyJet” I left the UK with £3k in my pocket and went travelling for, what was supposed to be, 6 months which turned into the best 2 years of my life in New Zealand. I was offered visa sponsorship in a non flying role but turned it down to come home and restart my job search.

After 10 months back in the UK I finally got my break and now I fly Turbo props for an airline in the UK.

I know of a few training mates who are still unemployed 5 years after qualifying.

The main reasons why is because they’re:
not prepared to move away from their hometown
not prepared to take a pay cut
not prepared to flying anything less than a 737
family life has taken over the dream

If you have the passion you’ll get there. The reason why so many succeed is because others can’t be bothered to put the effort in which leaves more opportunities for those who can.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 18:14
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: South East.
Posts: 715
I've been in the flying business all my life and, seeing the wriggling that you young guys are having to go through these days, I would hate to part of it today.

My career started with failing an RAF interview. It was at the time of the Duncan Sandys White paper. They call them SDRs now. It was the first real failure I'd had. I was a (then) state grammar school lad who had played a decent game of rugby, achieved good exam results and helped out at the local airfield.
I had to get a job as it was too late to go to uni that year, stayed in it and hated it.
I was actually doing a bit of Auster flying with a neighbour and he never ceased prodding me to try again but I was in my late teens and just didn't want to fail again.
Later the Royal Navy were advertising for pilots. I still had the PASSION and applied in the December. I was more PREPARED this time and, after the hoops, was in uniform by April !
I then fully trained, got my Wings and, in 30 months in all, was ready for FJ carrier ops. on a frontline aeroplane. Amazing these days !
Then another SDR and the politicians decided to scrap all the carriers !

OK, get some civvie licences and an 1179 - not as expensive as today - and instruct.
Then, 2 years later, instruct at an airline training school. They paid for my IR ! 4 years later and an airline came knocking !
I didn't even have a proper interview or have to pay for a type Rating. I took quite a drop in salary though - for 6 months.
As I had jet time, another Type Rating was all paid for and I was put up for a Command after a couple of years.
I did 25 years of it with little appreciation but lots of experience of our environment, people and what (hand) flying was all about.
After retirement I set up a company and did all the things I had wanted to do. To teach at an advanced level - instrument, aerobatics, formation and the icing on the cake - maintenance test flying (14 years of it) !
I've retired again after 18 years and I'm still flying but only for me now.

It's all about PASSION; the NEED, not the money. It is a tightrope but GIVE IT YOUR ALL - the MONEY will come anyway !

Good luck.
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Old 13th Oct 2019, 00:38
  #49 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: EU
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Originally Posted by Captain-Random View Post
3 months later I was shotdown in flames at a Ryanair interview after lying about passing all my exams first time over the phone (not sorry I did it, who wants to be assessed by an admin person on the phone from Amsterdam?)
Classic! -The bit about lying about passing all your exams was hilarious.
Did you keep a straight face over the phone saying that?

Originally Posted by Captain-Random View Post

After 10 months back in the UK I finally got my break and now I fly Turbo props for an airline in the UK.

I know of a few training mates who are still unemployed 5 years after qualifying.

The main reasons why is because they’re:
not prepared to move away from their hometown
not prepared to take a pay cut
not prepared to flying anything less than a 737
family life has taken over the dream

Great to hear you got there in the end. Thank you for sharing some reasons about the difference between making it and not, that is really helpful. Know any who were prepared to do all that and still didn't get there just out of interest?
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 09:07
  #50 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
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Originally Posted by Captain-Random View Post
After 10 months back in the UK I finally got my break and now I fly Turbo props for an airline in the UK.

I know of a few training mates who are still unemployed 5 years after qualifying.

The main reasons why is because they’re:
not prepared to move away from their hometown
not prepared to take a pay cut
not prepared to flying anything less than a 737
family life has taken over the dream

If you have the passion you’ll get there.
Those contemplating flying as a career need to take careful note of what appears in the QUOTE

1. You might think that going straight from a light twin to a Airbus/Boeing etc is the best move. For those who regard themselves as “an ace of the base” then the choice may well be valid.
For the ordinary Joe, two years on a TP, multi sector days flying ILS, LOC, VOR, NDB approaches is the ideal apprenticeship. You build a solid foundation, with a fair amount of hand flying, visual approaches etc. Now ready to make that move to a medium size jet.

Just ask yourself how much manual flying will you get flying a big silver bird a month compared to a TP?
Just how competent are you when it comes to hand flying, raw data without that TP foundation?
Why not ask to fly a few 1500’ visual circuits early on during your MCC course? Good introduction if a circling approach is part of the syllabus later on.


2. At the very outset, if you are not prepared to move, accept FO pay, fly a TP, then why bother with the training in the first place?
These are all overcome without question if you really have the passion. The acid test.

If you are not 100% certain that this is what you have a burning desire to do, then forgot it; choose something else as an occupation as you are simply wasting your money.

Last edited by parkfell; 15th Oct 2019 at 09:49. Reason: Circuits on MCC course ~ addition
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Old 16th Oct 2019, 10:24
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Gods Own Country
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by yap800 View Post
Classic! -The bit about lying about passing all your exams was hilarious.
Did you keep a straight face over the phone saying that?



Great to hear you got there in the end. Thank you for sharing some reasons about the difference between making it and not, that is really helpful. Know any who were prepared to do all that and still didn't get there just out of interest?
When I was interviewed by Ryanair and the truth came out the crinkly old captain (paddy I think his name was) actually said good man and admired my courage (he bombarded me with tech questions just to make sure I knew the stuff). However the HR guy was not having any of it. You could tell he wasnít impressed because he only asked me a couple of questions why Ryanair and my base choice.

i donít know of anyone who gave it 100% and didnít make it. I know of a lot more that quit either mid way or after their ATPLís
I also know of people who said they were prepared to do anything but havenít because of the reasons I mentioned above

Good luck everyone
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 02:17
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: n.hemisphere
Posts: 19
My story,
I got my EASA frozen in 2012 and could't find a job. In 2013 i wen't to Nepal to fly a tiny ultralight sightseeing flights for food but was not successful as they required some experience in fixing things - including the airplane. After returning home i was lucky to secure a job on a little turboprop for a demonstration flights. In 2015 this whole thing went belly up and i shifted to freelance flying - light singles and multi turboprops on demand. Later in 2017 I took a loan and bought myself a real type rating on a regional turboprop and got a job in EU(I am a 3rd world citizen) . Recently i had unsuccessful attempt on getting a jet job but was ditched 24 hours before the sim. I have about 1500 hours tt and all jet offers i get are equivalent to my total time in euro. Turboprops on the other hand pay triple but hours are almost worthless.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 09:24
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: attitude is nominal
Posts: 635
I have a friend who after a lot of PPL and CPL flying finally did his ATPL parallel to some other job. Being some "old" newbie now seems to kick him out of many airline tests. Maybe it's combined with not being a 20 year old and airlines feel he is not so flexible for their company style anymore? Just meant as a word of caution for non-standard career choices. So he ends up flying business jets partly with their low proficiency owners on the left seat...
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 10:24
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 104
I always laugh when I hear people in mainly western Europe that have the perfect picture that they will finish flight school and immediately join a major airline flying the big jets!

Some tips for those people:
Take any job anywhere in the world. Accept the low pay (at least for a few years). Be prepared to take further loans in the case you get an offer from the likes of Ryanair... NO you are not selling out or bending over for them, you are investing in your future.

Once you have that first job the road to better jobs is a paved one!

A friend of mine paid for his flight training from his semi professional music career. After he got his EASA licences he moved to Namibia to fly Cessna Caravans. A year later he was offered a job in Europe flying freight in an ATR. 2 years later he joined an airline in the UK flying Airbus 320's and has recently joined one of the Middle East 3 flying A380's.

A 'bad' job in Africa paved the way for his career, not to mention a few great stories for the pub!
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 10:38
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Italy
Age: 30
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by flyingmed View Post
Some tips for those people:
Take any job anywhere in the world. Accept the low pay (at least for a few years). Be prepared to take further loans in the case you get an offer from the likes of Ryanair... NO you are not selling out or bending over for them, you are investing in your future.

A friend of mine paid for his flight training from his semi professional music career. After he got his EASA licences he moved to Namibia to fly Cessna Caravans. A year later he was offered a job in Europe flying freight in an ATR. 2 years later he joined an airline in the UK flying Airbus 320's and has recently joined one of the Middle East 3 flying A380's.

A 'bad' job in Africa paved the way for his career, not to mention a few great stories for the pub!
Don't assume anyone has the same priorities in life.
Take a job anywhere... No thanks
Accept low salary... Depending on how much is the salary difference between my actual salary and the one proposed, taking into account expenses for living abroad and maybe commuting. Anyway any salary reduction more than 700Ä/months --> thanks but no thanks

About the "paved career", that's how it appears to my eyes: left home to fly Caravans, sounds a lot of fun flying, good if you're young and planning to stay for a few years. Come back and worked night shift...doing that on rotation, no way I'm working nights only. Got a position I'd probably not left. Moved to Middle East on long range, no useful pension, high living costs, again away from home.
Would I do that? No way, I'd just keep my current job.

As you see it's just a matter of personal priorities, there are no "general rules".
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 10:57
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by bulldog89 View Post


Don't assume anyone has the same priorities in life.
Take a job anywhere... No thanks
Accept low salary... Depending on how much is the salary difference between my actual salary and the one proposed, taking into account expenses for living abroad and maybe commuting. Anyway any salary reduction more than 700Ä/months --> thanks but no thanks

About the "paved career", that's how it appears to my eyes: left home to fly Caravans, sounds a lot of fun flying, good if you're young and planning to stay for a few years. Come back and worked night shift...doing that on rotation, no way I'm working nights only. Got a position I'd probably not left. Moved to Middle East on long range, no useful pension, high living costs, again away from home.
Would I do that? No way, I'd just keep my current job.

As you see it's just a matter of personal priorities, there are no "general rules".
Why would anyone get into flying commercially if they are not prepared to move away from their home town? That just sounds like a ridiculous argument when getting into a career in aviation!

A pay cut to get into the right job is a short term pain to a long term issue. I have taken a 50% paycut more than 8 years into my flying career, I am now better off than I would have been if I had stayed with my previous company...

Taking a job with unfavorable working rotations - it's a stepping stone to a job with better lifestyle conditions.

I know of a few pilots who joined Ryanair with the standard fATPL and minimum flight hours, then left during line training as they got based somewhere else in Europe and they wanted to live at home. (they are still unemployed now.) They potentially blocked other pilots willing to do anything to get their foot in the door to a flying job, that is the worst part!

The main point I was trying to make to people is basically don't complain and moan that you don't have a job if you are not AS WILLING as the next guy. It simply comes down to what you are willing to do to create a career for yourself, no one will make your career for you. If you want a 9 - 5 job working in your home town then it's probably better join the local flying school and work at a more regular job or by all means work as a flight instructor!
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:49
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Italy
Age: 30
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by flyingmed View Post
Why would anyone get into flying commercially if they are not prepared to move away from their home town? That just sounds like a ridiculous argument when getting into a career in aviation!
"Town" is different than "continent" and by the way one has the right what he thinks is better for his own life.
Anyway there are "lucky" cities located near airline hubs, so again: are you narrowing your chances? Yes. Is it impossible? No. Is a risk worth taking? It depends on what you have to lose/gain.

Originally Posted by flyingmed View Post
A pay cut to get into the right job is a short term pain to a long term issue. I have taken a 50% paycut more than 8 years into my flying career, I am now better off than I would have been if I had stayed with my previous company...
Your call. Again, it depends on your starting condition: for example after a quick check I've found out that becoming a CPT in the company I was aiming at (and no, it's not a low cost carrier, it's in the LH group) would only give me a 500€/month total net gain (after 10 years, assumed time to command; as FO I'd lose money) compared to my current job. Add to that the TR cost, the number of OFF days (I currently have 12/month) and the overnights...is it worth it? Probably not.
Nevermind about Lauda and similar...

Originally Posted by flyingmed View Post
Taking a job with unfavorable working rotations - it's a stepping stone to a job with better lifestyle conditions.
Again, depending on your starting condition. It's a stepping stone to HOPE to get a better lifestyle, which in my case is worse than the one I'm enjoying now anyway. Is it worth it to me? Probably not.

Originally Posted by flyingmed View Post
I know of a few pilots who joined Ryanair with the standard fATPL and minimum flight hours, then left during line training as they got based somewhere else in Europe and they wanted to live at home. (they are still unemployed now.) They potentially blocked other pilots willing to do anything to get their foot in the door to a flying job, that is the worst part!
A legitimate choice. Pilot selection should be merit based, not "flexibility" based as you seem suggesting. They performed better than others during selection and gained the right to leave the job at their will.

Originally Posted by flyingmed View Post
The main point I was trying to make to people is basically don't complain and moan that you don't have a job if you are not AS WILLING as the next guy. It simply comes down to what you are willing to do to create a career for yourself, no one will make your career for you. If you want a 9 - 5 job working in your home town then it's probably better join the local flying school and work at a more regular job or by all means work as a flight instructor!
Being "AS WILLING" is the base to lower salary and lifestyle conditions in the industry. It rhymes with "flexibility".
I agree that being a flight instructor could lead to a more "regular" lifestyle. Anyway it's not a really stable industry...maybe a good choice as a second job, but training costs are high and salary quite low...only for truly motivated people.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 15:13
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: In a house
Posts: 104
@ bulldog89 It sounds like you are already set into the market. You seem to have a job which although you may not be 100% satisfied with you still are not an unemployed pilot with minimal experience. I am referring to the subject of this forum "Unemployed pilots fATPL holders". There are many pilots in this category that wonder why they get left behind, sometimes it is simply because they are not as willing to move in order to secure a job. They then complain on PPRuNe and other sites that the market is unfair and make excuses for their own lack of enthusiasm and willingness to fight for their goals.

There are only very few who are lucky enough to stay close to home throughout an aviation career. I have only been flying commercially for 15 years now and have already lived in over 5 countries, moved my family to 4 different countries (2 continents), 3 different schools for my kids.... I guess I am trying to say that there are people out there who are very willing and capable, this determination is very apparent at interviews, hence why some people really stand out amongst the crowd of fATPL holders. Especially when the interviewers can't count on experience, they will grade you on what you can bring to the company.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 15:33
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Italy
Age: 30
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by flyingmed View Post
@ bulldog89 It sounds like you are already set into the market. You seem to have a job which although you may not be 100% satisfied with you still are not an unemployed pilot with minimal experience. I am referring to the subject of this forum "Unemployed pilots fATPL holders". There are many pilots in this category that wonder why they get left behind, sometimes it is simply because they are not as willing to move in order to secure a job. They then complain on PPRuNe and other sites that the market is unfair and make excuses for their own lack of enthusiasm and willingness to fight for their goals.

There are only very few who are lucky enough to stay close to home throughout an aviation career. I have only been flying commercially for 15 years now and have already lived in over 5 countries, moved my family to 4 different countries (2 continents), 3 different schools for my kids.... I guess I am trying to say that there are people out there who are very willing and capable, this determination is very apparent at interviews, hence why some people really stand out amongst the crowd of fATPL holders. Especially when the interviewers can't count on experience, they will grade you on what you can bring to the company.
If your post is aimed to unemployed people then I pretty much agree with your points, even if the part about "lowering industry T&C" and "the right to leave the industry at any time" is still valid.

And you're right, I'm quite satisfied with my job.
The only thing that I miss is flying, as I think private flying in the free time is just a big waste of money. But I have to admit that if I'd ever be able to do some para-launching in my spare time I won't even think about becoming an airline pilot.

What I can say to unemployed students is: make sure this is what you really want, because with that amount of money you could also set up a small aviation company, which probably it won't make you rich, but it will give you an honest salary and a good amount of free time. BUT if at anytime you feel this is not the right path for you just find something else and move on.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 17:08
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Unknown
Posts: 28
I finished in 2013, one interview in 15, a couple last year, got nothing, just under 800hrs total time.
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