What is it like as an FO in the first years? (when you are from the North)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is it like as an FO in the first years? (when you are from the North)
Hi,
Just hoping to get any advice and words from the wise regarding taking the step into pilot training and the initial life afterwards.
I would appreciate any guidance on the few years after training. My circumstances are as follows:
Good job, home owner, married with one child and live in the Yorkshire area. My wife is supportive of this and I/we are used to shift work, long hours, away from home time to time, etc. I appreciate that this is expected in the early years and I fully expect it. Just how much of an impact is it though?
I am trying to explore more on base postings and commuting in these first few years. Is it more than likely that first few years of FO life will be at one of the bases down south or is there now equally a chance of being based up north? Is there a north/south divide (excuse the term!).
This would not mean as much if I was single, but with more commitments and a young family, this also needs to be considered. Following this, may it be dependant on the training program completed (such BA FPP Program, Easyjet MPL, etc), and are any programs better suited for people in my circumstances?
I would appreciate any advice regarding the above or anyone who has had similar experiences in the above circumstances to pass on their guidance.
Just hoping to get any advice and words from the wise regarding taking the step into pilot training and the initial life afterwards.
I would appreciate any guidance on the few years after training. My circumstances are as follows:
Good job, home owner, married with one child and live in the Yorkshire area. My wife is supportive of this and I/we are used to shift work, long hours, away from home time to time, etc. I appreciate that this is expected in the early years and I fully expect it. Just how much of an impact is it though?
I am trying to explore more on base postings and commuting in these first few years. Is it more than likely that first few years of FO life will be at one of the bases down south or is there now equally a chance of being based up north? Is there a north/south divide (excuse the term!).
This would not mean as much if I was single, but with more commitments and a young family, this also needs to be considered. Following this, may it be dependant on the training program completed (such BA FPP Program, Easyjet MPL, etc), and are any programs better suited for people in my circumstances?
I would appreciate any advice regarding the above or anyone who has had similar experiences in the above circumstances to pass on their guidance.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The sandpit
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
im impressed at your confidence getting a job, it took me 8 years to finally get one.
I was a sponsered cadet as well.
Bases you will take what ever job you get, if your lucky near home,im not even in the same country.
I was a sponsered cadet as well.
Bases you will take what ever job you get, if your lucky near home,im not even in the same country.
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: EU
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This might sound pessimistic but as with what has been said above, I think the strictest filter you really ought to put on your own 'job filter' is of a continental scale. If location is a major enough factor to have you asking about North and South of England then you are going to need more than your fair share of luck, but hey, it's happened before.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Around the world.
Age: 42
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From those that start pilot training, there are relatively few that will achieve a good airline job. I have seen friends of mine who have made it all the way through to fATPL and never worked as a pilot. I have seen friends who have made it as far as jet FO and been chopped because they haven't quite 'got it' in the small amount of time an airline will give you to improve.
In your position, if you haven't started, I wouldn't touch aviation as a job. You say you have a house, a family and a good job. I would go and fly for fun.
Your question shouldn't be can I get a job north or south. It should be can I get a job which actually pays? If so, which country is the job in? The rest is all luck, ability is assumed if you manage to get that far.
In your position, if you haven't started, I wouldn't touch aviation as a job. You say you have a house, a family and a good job. I would go and fly for fun.
Your question shouldn't be can I get a job north or south. It should be can I get a job which actually pays? If so, which country is the job in? The rest is all luck, ability is assumed if you manage to get that far.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Up north
Age: 35
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I got my fATPL 15 months ago, did my training on a non-tagged integrated course. Out of the 13 people on my course, not one have found a job, even though almost all of us would be happy to accept a job anywhere in the world. I just love paying back my 85 000 euro loan working 22-06 five days a week in a warehouse.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Planet Claire
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A chum of mine expressed interest. I encouraged him.
He spent the £100,000 that his father had left him.
Eventually, he had a CPL ( frozen Atpl) and no money.
Never got a job.
I wish I'd talked him out of it now....
He spent the £100,000 that his father had left him.
Eventually, he had a CPL ( frozen Atpl) and no money.
Never got a job.
I wish I'd talked him out of it now....
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was in a similar situation - up north (even further north than you), young family, and I started training in the hope of eventually getting a flying job comutable from home. I accepted the fact that the first few years might be spent away at a base down south.
(f)ATPL for 6 years now and not a sniff of a job anywhere. At least not one I could afford to take!....others will be happy to work in ops/admin for 12 months for an airline on minimum wage just to get an opportunity (eg jet2 pilot apprentice, and thomsons latest 'internal' recruitment) - but if you've got a house and kids that's not an option.
A surprise medical issue recently made my decision to pack it all in. (CAA withdrew my medical out of the blue for 6 months- now issued with a restricted medical), that coupled with a large number of redundancies at airlines such as FlyBe highlight just how insecure any flying job would be.
If you're not prepared to move (and I mean move country!), and you're not prepared to work on minimum wage for a year or two, and you're not prepared for redundancy and having to move to the Far East, then you should think twice!
Don't convince yourself that you've got something different to offer and the airlines will see your potential because you're "different"....you'll just be another cpl in a line of thousands of unemployed cpls...except you'll be restricted by location and £££, whereas hundreds are not.
If your wife knew the reality I bet she wouldn't be as supportive.
And I bet she could find something better to do with that 80k you're thinking of spending...
(f)ATPL for 6 years now and not a sniff of a job anywhere. At least not one I could afford to take!....others will be happy to work in ops/admin for 12 months for an airline on minimum wage just to get an opportunity (eg jet2 pilot apprentice, and thomsons latest 'internal' recruitment) - but if you've got a house and kids that's not an option.
A surprise medical issue recently made my decision to pack it all in. (CAA withdrew my medical out of the blue for 6 months- now issued with a restricted medical), that coupled with a large number of redundancies at airlines such as FlyBe highlight just how insecure any flying job would be.
If you're not prepared to move (and I mean move country!), and you're not prepared to work on minimum wage for a year or two, and you're not prepared for redundancy and having to move to the Far East, then you should think twice!
Don't convince yourself that you've got something different to offer and the airlines will see your potential because you're "different"....you'll just be another cpl in a line of thousands of unemployed cpls...except you'll be restricted by location and £££, whereas hundreds are not.
If your wife knew the reality I bet she wouldn't be as supportive.
And I bet she could find something better to do with that 80k you're thinking of spending...
Last edited by clunk1001; 2nd Mar 2014 at 09:45.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mbwings,
I would give you my hard luck story but I'd just be repeating what has already been posted here several times.
If you get a 'tagged' cadetship then you might get lucky with a UK base. Equally you might not get a job at all.
If you're going it alone, you must be fully aware of these 2 points that have already been made;
1) If you think the biggest problem you will face once qualified is the hassle of commuting down south then you really need re assess your expectations in a big way.
You will have done extremely well to get EU. UK jobs are lottery wins.
2) Do not fall into the trap of thinking you're different and that the airlines will see that you 'shine'.
You'll just be another one of a sobering number of unemployed fATPLs.
I trained with someone who's dad is a training Captain at a major UK airline. He's not even had an interview in 6 years.
Thousands of people really have spent 50K-100K with no job and no realistic chance of getting one.
Since I've qualified, 2 friends have asked my opinion on flight training. Both would make excellent pilots. I discouraged both. One took my advice and one didn't. You can guess the outcome I'm sure.
I would not recommend flight training to anyone. Full stop.
I would give you my hard luck story but I'd just be repeating what has already been posted here several times.
If you get a 'tagged' cadetship then you might get lucky with a UK base. Equally you might not get a job at all.
If you're going it alone, you must be fully aware of these 2 points that have already been made;
1) If you think the biggest problem you will face once qualified is the hassle of commuting down south then you really need re assess your expectations in a big way.
You will have done extremely well to get EU. UK jobs are lottery wins.
2) Do not fall into the trap of thinking you're different and that the airlines will see that you 'shine'.
You'll just be another one of a sobering number of unemployed fATPLs.
I trained with someone who's dad is a training Captain at a major UK airline. He's not even had an interview in 6 years.
Thousands of people really have spent 50K-100K with no job and no realistic chance of getting one.
Since I've qualified, 2 friends have asked my opinion on flight training. Both would make excellent pilots. I discouraged both. One took my advice and one didn't. You can guess the outcome I'm sure.
I would not recommend flight training to anyone. Full stop.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly, it is right. Starting training now is risky. I did it and I was lucky to find a job within a year but would I do it again if I had to? My answer is no. Way to risky. I often say it is like playing poker.
On the other hand, if you don't try, you will never know the answer. Is that really something you want to do? If you answer is yes, I would suggest that you try to apply to airlines that provide cadet training like KLM, BA, Air France, etc.
If you decide to try, be always sure to have an alternative option.
Good luck!
On the other hand, if you don't try, you will never know the answer. Is that really something you want to do? If you answer is yes, I would suggest that you try to apply to airlines that provide cadet training like KLM, BA, Air France, etc.
If you decide to try, be always sure to have an alternative option.
Good luck!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: wolves
Age: 46
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Completed fATPL (modular thank God) late 2008ish, MCC and FI. No sniff of an airline job but lucky enough to get some weekend work instructing early 2009 and still do.
Also an experienced aero systems engineer (contracting now) so got the technical background, demonstrated teamworking ability bla bla bla.
Wind on 6 years - sill no sniff of a job, *married and with a child, mortgage etc so need some level of reasonable pay....so thats never going to happen then.
Would love to instruct full time but see (*) above.
Also an experienced aero systems engineer (contracting now) so got the technical background, demonstrated teamworking ability bla bla bla.
Wind on 6 years - sill no sniff of a job, *married and with a child, mortgage etc so need some level of reasonable pay....so thats never going to happen then.
Would love to instruct full time but see (*) above.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth
Age: 33
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all the guys above who trained are you allowed to say where you trained exactly? I'm curious to see whether going to schools other than CTC/ Oxford will not land you a job?
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all new recruits including cadets, the bases on offer depend on the local demand. Preferences may be expressed and noted, and of course it is always going to be satisfying to be able to offer somebody the choice they want, but the job location is what it is. For most airlines the majority of vacancies are likely to be either at a main base, a new base, or a base that is expanding.
Of the cadets we have taken on over the last few years the placement demographic has been about a third each to the South, midlands, and Northern bases, with a slight bias towards the midlands. There can be opportunities for people to move base as vacancies arise, and there are instances of mutual swapping (with the companies approval). The majority of people (with us) do seem to find it works out eventually. Of course the very nature of this job may mean you need to consider making a move to an area that is likely to offer you better prospects within your chosen career.
The intake course I followed about 2 years ago, all started their training 15 months prior to that (Autumn 2010). None were pre-selected by the airline prior to the completion of their integrated training courses. They all now have their ATPL (unfrozen licences). They all have around 1500 hours on modern jet aircraft. They can look forward to meeting the requirements for command qualification in around 3 years from now. They all gross around £60K per annum plus benefits.
Of the cadets we have taken on over the last few years the placement demographic has been about a third each to the South, midlands, and Northern bases, with a slight bias towards the midlands. There can be opportunities for people to move base as vacancies arise, and there are instances of mutual swapping (with the companies approval). The majority of people (with us) do seem to find it works out eventually. Of course the very nature of this job may mean you need to consider making a move to an area that is likely to offer you better prospects within your chosen career.
The intake course I followed about 2 years ago, all started their training 15 months prior to that (Autumn 2010). None were pre-selected by the airline prior to the completion of their integrated training courses. They all now have their ATPL (unfrozen licences). They all have around 1500 hours on modern jet aircraft. They can look forward to meeting the requirements for command qualification in around 3 years from now. They all gross around £60K per annum plus benefits.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Integrated? You must have missed the wife/kids/mortgage bit bealzebub 
But it probably is your best chance of getting a job which will pay your mortgage each month mbwings...
I was modular.
Integrated would around 86k on an 18 month full time course hundreds of miles from home. A further 20-30k on a type rating (IF you get offered a cadet position), another 3 months away from home, then spend perhaps 2 years before getting your preferred base.
I'd say you're looking at an outlay of £100k+ over 2 years with no income in that period, minimal chances of a job, and if you do get a job a further 2 years away from home.
60k after 2 years is all well and good but my understanding is that some cadets get paid very little in the first few years (not enough to pay for a mortgage/wife/child/loan repayments etc).
Pilotman330 makes an important point about having an alternative option in case you don't get a job at the end. Heed that advice if nothing else... But don't make the alternate option "sell the house". I saw two people I trained with sell their homes in order to keep current after training (with the wife and kids still in them! I
you not)...one is now divorced, the other is in a caravan with the wife and kids. And THAT is the reality at the moment.
Good luck anyway...
But it probably is your best chance of getting a job which will pay your mortgage each month mbwings...
I was modular.
Integrated would around 86k on an 18 month full time course hundreds of miles from home. A further 20-30k on a type rating (IF you get offered a cadet position), another 3 months away from home, then spend perhaps 2 years before getting your preferred base.
I'd say you're looking at an outlay of £100k+ over 2 years with no income in that period, minimal chances of a job, and if you do get a job a further 2 years away from home.
60k after 2 years is all well and good but my understanding is that some cadets get paid very little in the first few years (not enough to pay for a mortgage/wife/child/loan repayments etc).
Pilotman330 makes an important point about having an alternative option in case you don't get a job at the end. Heed that advice if nothing else... But don't make the alternate option "sell the house". I saw two people I trained with sell their homes in order to keep current after training (with the wife and kids still in them! I
you not)...one is now divorced, the other is in a caravan with the wife and kids. And THAT is the reality at the moment.Good luck anyway...
Last edited by clunk1001; 4th Mar 2014 at 18:21.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really am baffled by all these horror stories. I've met a few people in similar situations, but none quite as bad as some listed here and on other threads.
What on earth are they doing at Oxford etc that convinces all these people to part with so much cash? I've never actually visited an integrated flight school, but they must have a very impressive sales department.
From the unemployed integrated graduates I have met, the common theme seems to be a total lack of research, and no proper plan B. Just because someone once told them they would hopefully get a job with Easyjet or Ryanair, they just took that as a fact, and thought if they stumped up enough cash then it would all sort itself out.
My plan A was to go modular, delay the IR and get an instructor rating instead, then do the IR when I had more hours, and worry about looking at airlines then. While I was instructing for 3 years I made some amazing contacts, saved a load of cash not having to do 2 IR renewals, and when the airline job offer came (while I was actually on my MCC course) I was in the perfect position to accept.
This plan was set on the basis that I would be instructing and basically earning minimum wage for at least 2 years, it ended up being 3 so even my worst case planning wasn't up to much.
But the people I've met where Ryan air was their plan A with no proper thought to plan B is ridiculous, I just struggle to understand how people who are smart enough to get their hands on £100k are so bad at judging how to spend it!
What on earth are they doing at Oxford etc that convinces all these people to part with so much cash? I've never actually visited an integrated flight school, but they must have a very impressive sales department.
From the unemployed integrated graduates I have met, the common theme seems to be a total lack of research, and no proper plan B. Just because someone once told them they would hopefully get a job with Easyjet or Ryanair, they just took that as a fact, and thought if they stumped up enough cash then it would all sort itself out.
My plan A was to go modular, delay the IR and get an instructor rating instead, then do the IR when I had more hours, and worry about looking at airlines then. While I was instructing for 3 years I made some amazing contacts, saved a load of cash not having to do 2 IR renewals, and when the airline job offer came (while I was actually on my MCC course) I was in the perfect position to accept.
This plan was set on the basis that I would be instructing and basically earning minimum wage for at least 2 years, it ended up being 3 so even my worst case planning wasn't up to much.
But the people I've met where Ryan air was their plan A with no proper thought to plan B is ridiculous, I just struggle to understand how people who are smart enough to get their hands on £100k are so bad at judging how to spend it!
mbwings
There's very little I can add to the excellent advice and warnings you have received so far. Given your domestic situation and the fact you say that you have a "good job" IMHO I think you'd be mad to chuck it away and set off down the road of an "untagged" integrated course.
If you insist in a career change but want/need some sort of domestic stability then yes, then BA might work for you, after all there's certainly base stability, i.e. only LGW & LHR, there are many from "up north" who work for BA who do manage to commute to/from London. Be aware that with BA, just like most other airlines, if you are flying shorthaul (which you would be initially) and you don't move your family home closer to the base you won't be"..away from home time to time... ", you will be away from home most of the time, certainly in your early days in the company..
The "down side" of the BA FPP option is that I suspect
it is much much, much..... etc, etc...., more difficult to get selected for a place on the FPP than buying your own slot on an "untagged" integrated course at an FTO of your choice.
with more commitments and a young family, this also needs to be considered. Following this, may it be dependant on the training program completed (such BA FPP Program, Easyjet MPL, etc), and are any programs better suited for people in my circumstances?
The "down side" of the BA FPP option is that I suspect
it is much much, much..... etc, etc...., more difficult to get selected for a place on the FPP than buying your own slot on an "untagged" integrated course at an FTO of your choice.
Last edited by wiggy; 5th Mar 2014 at 09:51. Reason: deleting duplication/spelling.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: somewhere warm and wet
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am still not sure if this post is for real...... or a troll.....
A320 type rated myself, and cannot get an interview from here (UK) to the South Pacific. I think you need a serious reality check. You don't choose a base. If you are incredibly lucky, you take the offer that turns up, somewhere far from home. And your partner / wife / husband will be thrilled with that. Skype is a wondeful prelude to separation....
Good luck in whatever you do though...
A320 type rated myself, and cannot get an interview from here (UK) to the South Pacific. I think you need a serious reality check. You don't choose a base. If you are incredibly lucky, you take the offer that turns up, somewhere far from home. And your partner / wife / husband will be thrilled with that. Skype is a wondeful prelude to separation....
Good luck in whatever you do though...
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think I know any pilot who would recommend you to leave what you have for a possible career in aviation. If you're worried about north or south the aviation business is not for you. Just getting a job in Europe is difficult these days 
If you love aviation you could still fly just for fun. Join a local flying club and get a PPL
If you love aviation you could still fly just for fun. Join a local flying club and get a PPL
A middle option 'twixt fly-for-fun and mortgage-the-family-in-the-faint-hope is to keep your current job and gradually train for the various licences & ratings - including instructor rating - for *fun*. Get known around your local schools by training there and becoming a known quantity. Eventually you'll be in a likely spot for part time instructing structured around your breadwinning job. Include part time ground jobs at a school too.
Be prepared for this to take years. Over that time you'll be surprised how often it leads to contacts that lead to further flying. One day your hobby might become your real job.
Be prepared for this to take years. Over that time you'll be surprised how often it leads to contacts that lead to further flying. One day your hobby might become your real job.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: newcastle upon tyne
Age: 48
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mb wings
In a similar position to you live up North wife and one child have completed PPL and a chunk of the hour building. However I have been in this position for about two years haven't borrowed any money yet or even gone for a class 1 medical. I would also be limited to a base up North.
When I started training people were getting jobs I have seen local instructors move on to local TP operators and are now at bases of there choice up North. I even know one guy who was lucky enough to secure a job with a well known Northern airline.
What is stopping me is I know how hard it will be to get a job, the strain the rest of training will put on my family and being based near home are all factors. I have a well paid job and unlike you a wife that thinks I live in cloud cook coo land when it comes to flying. I hate my job with a passion and want nothing else to change career and get a flying job but at age 38 it is also starting to look doubtful. If I decide to make a break for it I would have to do it soon. The way I see it I am ten paces further towards the goal than I was five years ago and don't have any debt, also enjoyed flying as an expensive hobby, as my wife says.
The way I have done it is as a hobby and put myself in a position if it does suddenly by some sort of miracle change tomorrow and there is a chance of the job market picking up. I would be able to finish training in a reasonable length of time. I do study bits of the ATPL course but find this helps expand knowledge of flying. My only advice is to tread carefully, if it does happen to me hopefully I will finish with only about 25k worth of debt unless I have to buy a type rating. That would send the Mrs over the edge good luck with what ever you decide.
When I started training people were getting jobs I have seen local instructors move on to local TP operators and are now at bases of there choice up North. I even know one guy who was lucky enough to secure a job with a well known Northern airline.
What is stopping me is I know how hard it will be to get a job, the strain the rest of training will put on my family and being based near home are all factors. I have a well paid job and unlike you a wife that thinks I live in cloud cook coo land when it comes to flying. I hate my job with a passion and want nothing else to change career and get a flying job but at age 38 it is also starting to look doubtful. If I decide to make a break for it I would have to do it soon. The way I see it I am ten paces further towards the goal than I was five years ago and don't have any debt, also enjoyed flying as an expensive hobby, as my wife says.
The way I have done it is as a hobby and put myself in a position if it does suddenly by some sort of miracle change tomorrow and there is a chance of the job market picking up. I would be able to finish training in a reasonable length of time. I do study bits of the ATPL course but find this helps expand knowledge of flying. My only advice is to tread carefully, if it does happen to me hopefully I will finish with only about 25k worth of debt unless I have to buy a type rating. That would send the Mrs over the edge good luck with what ever you decide.
Last edited by phdixon; 12th Mar 2014 at 19:00.