LION AIR(Merged 2011 - 12)
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LION AIR(Merged 2011 - 12)
Hi all,
I would like to gather as much information as possible regarding this program. I mean real information from people that is there or has already been there. I have the following questions:
What is the final price of the whole thing? Any hidden costs?
Is the employment opportunity real? If so what is the salary during the one year contract? (Ones say 2000, others say 3500)
Any chance to stay longer than the year?
For those who have completed the program:
Have you manage to get a job in other airline afterwards?
What is the market situation there? Garuda...
I think some of us would be very grateful if someone would describe his/ her experience there.
Thank you!
I would like to gather as much information as possible regarding this program. I mean real information from people that is there or has already been there. I have the following questions:
What is the final price of the whole thing? Any hidden costs?
Is the employment opportunity real? If so what is the salary during the one year contract? (Ones say 2000, others say 3500)
Any chance to stay longer than the year?
For those who have completed the program:
Have you manage to get a job in other airline afterwards?
What is the market situation there? Garuda...
I think some of us would be very grateful if someone would describe his/ her experience there.
Thank you!
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Its true.. If you are good helper slave..meaning not causing trouble, they keep you on, with its new salary offer
for extension of contract to stay in this company for another year or two..it is like taking a anal probe without ky. Its so uncivilised..
I guess lion, will lose a few more european pilots after christmas...again.. Due to a fact that a agency (NZ) are looking for NG pilots(FO & capt) for european ops. Next feb. Thats if they havent jumped ship already.
for extension of contract to stay in this company for another year or two..it is like taking a anal probe without ky. Its so uncivilised..I guess lion, will lose a few more european pilots after christmas...again.. Due to a fact that a agency (NZ) are looking for NG pilots(FO & capt) for european ops. Next feb. Thats if they havent jumped ship already.
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2 friends?
Do these 2 friends work for lion air or have done the Eagle jet course? Come on guys there are so many people on here basing decisions which cost huge amounts of money (the eagle jet/AMD/CAE course) and the only thing they take into account is what 2 friends said? There are threads on this section about the eagle jet programme and similar. Read them. The USA forum has a good thread on eagle jet also.
Also, unless you have been there and done it, don't give advice to other people on wether a programme is good or bad.
Also, unless you have been there and done it, don't give advice to other people on wether a programme is good or bad.
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I said i know two friends that told me so, I'm not saying wether it's good or bad and im not giving any advice to anyone, i was just asking for more info becaus i obviosly don't rely only on 2 friends opinion
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Ok... guys. Eaglejet candidates... after 500hrs, which is 5mths and no more than 6mth of flying after line training. since you be flying minimum of 100hrs of month. after which Lionair will offer you a contract which is similar to local employee get.. 21million rupiah basic and 105000 rupiah per hr.. BUT reaching above 85hrs there is an increase of pay via percentage. (APPROX..EX.. 105% of your flt pay per hr. between 85-100hrs then 110% of between 110-115hrs and so on...) Tax free.. and that is it. other things they offer is medical, 12days off a year..
THey do offer eaglejet pilots further employment on 1yr contracts if they wish. the ones who do not being offer further employment have issues with the company, maybe with scheduling etc. BUT trust me they squeeze everything out of you, they leave you as dry as a prune, you have no social life, for the duration of your stay.. you work 5/6/7days and 1 day off. I know you saying "I am here to fly not too play"...thats BU@L. That saying normally wears out after a month.. or earlier.
when you come here leave all that western superior attitude behind. I have seen a few of 1/2 stripe expat drama queens in the office and flight ops, screaming and waving there hands about, it makes me smile before a 4 day trip..even the grumpy capts has a grin seeing this drama. Pilots forget that the management base your extension of contract/upgrades to the feedback of the captain's that you have flown with and if you have a bad attitude to work..unsafe flt ops the company will not extend...OOPS.. before hords accusations.. I have seen and touched the contracts offer to eaglejet pilots..
But the contract a few months ago was better for the expat extending there contracts.. USD pay. 6000usd per month.. 10 weeks on 2 weeks off for all eaglejet, CAE, now since there is no competition for pilots by indonesian airlines, this offer has been scrapped
I guess there no going back to this plan since there is not going to be a shortage of first officers..
HONESTLY guys lion is always short on flightcrew, they will offer you a contract after the 500hrs.. . Otherwise expat pilot would not complain about the excess flight hours they fly. and the locals are going to Garuda airlines with T &C and life...
Good luck... btw I am not Kush. or Stephane
just angry and over worked....
THey do offer eaglejet pilots further employment on 1yr contracts if they wish. the ones who do not being offer further employment have issues with the company, maybe with scheduling etc. BUT trust me they squeeze everything out of you, they leave you as dry as a prune, you have no social life, for the duration of your stay.. you work 5/6/7days and 1 day off. I know you saying "I am here to fly not too play"...thats BU@L. That saying normally wears out after a month.. or earlier.
when you come here leave all that western superior attitude behind. I have seen a few of 1/2 stripe expat drama queens in the office and flight ops, screaming and waving there hands about, it makes me smile before a 4 day trip..even the grumpy capts has a grin seeing this drama. Pilots forget that the management base your extension of contract/upgrades to the feedback of the captain's that you have flown with and if you have a bad attitude to work..unsafe flt ops the company will not extend...OOPS.. before hords accusations.. I have seen and touched the contracts offer to eaglejet pilots..
But the contract a few months ago was better for the expat extending there contracts.. USD pay. 6000usd per month.. 10 weeks on 2 weeks off for all eaglejet, CAE, now since there is no competition for pilots by indonesian airlines, this offer has been scrapped
I guess there no going back to this plan since there is not going to be a shortage of first officers..HONESTLY guys lion is always short on flightcrew, they will offer you a contract after the 500hrs.. . Otherwise expat pilot would not complain about the excess flight hours they fly. and the locals are going to Garuda airlines with T &C and life...
Good luck... btw I am not Kush. or Stephane
just angry and over worked....
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At least one normal guy providing useful information...thank you.
BTW.how much do you make a month?? (USD)
And, can you take housing allowance instead of living in shared apartment??
BTW.how much do you make a month?? (USD)
And, can you take housing allowance instead of living in shared apartment??
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ok... take home is depending how much you work between 4-5500usd. because the pay structure. you keep 100% no tax..
As Eaglejet you get NO housing allowance until you sign the contract after 500hrs. After which you get 2.5million... which is 275usd for housing. Eaglejet guys find there own housing shared or single. Only CAE has free shared company housing, but most move out to be closer to the airport called BSD..Tangerang... check it out. when you join just ask the many expats for advice where you stay, but when you come here dont expect much... leave the 1st world behind.
Housing here is depending where you live.. in city center of jkt... a expat place can cost you.. 800-2800usd per month, btw these place the housing is provided by the rich companies to there expat managers, consultance etc..
Most pilots live near the airport for about 300-400usd per month.. dont forget the bills. and you need to pay 12mth rent in advance.. so make sure your got the $$$... first. and CAUTION... if you white..(expat) expect to pay the expat value added tax...or the bule tax. So negotiate everything until you are happy to give away a years rent... NON REFUNDABLE... and no you cant take the landlord to court etc.. dont exist. Trust me here... the mob justice first, then police justice.
I am not a TOTAL lover of p2F.. but you have to wake up, the world has changed. There many people, things to blame.. i guess that human nature.. Airlines are going bankrupt over night..as we speak. Good example AMR and thomson etc.. the good days and the hiring low hours are PRACTICAL no more. Now it the fitness airlines wins. You can wait for the industry to pick up so to chose thousands of low hours pilots.but WHEN??
I learn in aviation you have to be lucky and to be in the right place at the right time... Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.. so be prepared with jet hours. My friend (Eaglejet) my training partner..he competed his 2 yrs with lion, now flies B777 with qatar. a few more expats gone to hong kong airlines and a few went home to europe and found jobs.
and that no BU@L. i promise you... I wish i can join him.
though who couldnt find jobs after there time with lion, probably left with 500hrs or a bit more... thats not going to cut it. just look at job sites. you need a target... get as much hours as you can physically and mentally can fly. But make you sure when you leave lion you have more than 1000hrs jet... especially if your TOTAL TIME is low
. Common sense...
(OK I expect hords to gonna say.... you dont hve common sense if you have p2f..
) guys life short... pilots always look after no1..... dog eat dog world.. reality.... so who gives a F...........
As Eaglejet you get NO housing allowance until you sign the contract after 500hrs. After which you get 2.5million... which is 275usd for housing. Eaglejet guys find there own housing shared or single. Only CAE has free shared company housing, but most move out to be closer to the airport called BSD..Tangerang... check it out. when you join just ask the many expats for advice where you stay, but when you come here dont expect much... leave the 1st world behind.
Housing here is depending where you live.. in city center of jkt... a expat place can cost you.. 800-2800usd per month, btw these place the housing is provided by the rich companies to there expat managers, consultance etc..
Most pilots live near the airport for about 300-400usd per month.. dont forget the bills. and you need to pay 12mth rent in advance.. so make sure your got the $$$... first. and CAUTION... if you white..(expat) expect to pay the expat value added tax...or the bule tax. So negotiate everything until you are happy to give away a years rent... NON REFUNDABLE... and no you cant take the landlord to court etc.. dont exist. Trust me here... the mob justice first, then police justice.
I am not a TOTAL lover of p2F.. but you have to wake up, the world has changed. There many people, things to blame.. i guess that human nature.. Airlines are going bankrupt over night..as we speak. Good example AMR and thomson etc.. the good days and the hiring low hours are PRACTICAL no more. Now it the fitness airlines wins. You can wait for the industry to pick up so to chose thousands of low hours pilots.but WHEN??
I learn in aviation you have to be lucky and to be in the right place at the right time... Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.. so be prepared with jet hours. My friend (Eaglejet) my training partner..he competed his 2 yrs with lion, now flies B777 with qatar. a few more expats gone to hong kong airlines and a few went home to europe and found jobs.
and that no BU@L. i promise you... I wish i can join him.
though who couldnt find jobs after there time with lion, probably left with 500hrs or a bit more... thats not going to cut it. just look at job sites. you need a target... get as much hours as you can physically and mentally can fly. But make you sure when you leave lion you have more than 1000hrs jet... especially if your TOTAL TIME is low
. Common sense... (OK I expect hords to gonna say.... you dont hve common sense if you have p2f..
) guys life short... pilots always look after no1..... dog eat dog world.. reality.... so who gives a F...........
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I do have a silly question.
Why do you guys do this P2F scheme? Do you really expect to be called a professional? I mean, really... you're supposed to be paid to be an FO, not be the highest-fare-paying passenger onboard.
I guess FO's paying to be a required crew member (
) is another way to increase revenue to an airline... kudos to these airlines for exploiting the stupid...
Why do you guys do this P2F scheme? Do you really expect to be called a professional? I mean, really... you're supposed to be paid to be an FO, not be the highest-fare-paying passenger onboard.
I guess FO's paying to be a required crew member (
) is another way to increase revenue to an airline... kudos to these airlines for exploiting the stupid...
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well maybe we wanna join this stupid disgraceful scheme cause we get a JOB afterwards...and just imagine how up this world is when there are hundreds of us applying to it...
jetjockey696 I appreciate the info you shared with us...
and now...let the show begin...again (hords, your turn)
up this world is when there are hundreds of us applying to it...jetjockey696 I appreciate the info you shared with us...
and now...let the show begin...again (hords, your turn)
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Very useful information jetjockey696. As I've posted before the whole flight training scenario these days are geared towards pay2fly. Oxford & CTC with their prohibitively expensive Integrated courses due to their connections with airlines after which you have to pay for your TR anyway. Or a modular route combined with a line training programme. The cost works out the same at roughly £100,000. And if you go modular and decide to try and wait it out instructing or doing another job, that's years of potential earnings as a pilot wasted.
It's a numbers game, an airline's market and either way you pay the same price. Sure you can argue the standard of flying differs but, experience makes up for it and any pilot could make a mistake at any time. That's why we become first officers to learn from our mistakes. The only reason I don't condone p2f is because it's biased towards the wealthier but not necessarily the less apt individual. In today's debt strapped money hungry world no one wants the risk of guaranteeing another individuals skills. Thus, very few airlines offer a bond these days of which most are very well established airlines or airlines from rich countries and a cadet pilot is forced to bear their own risk. The route for the self improver traditionally used to be through regionals and to the majors.
With the downsizing over the last few years regionals stopped hiring thus removing a method for most self improvers to progress in their careers. And recently with the introduction of MPL and already established Integrated schools signing on new training contracts with regionals and majors. The self improver that trained between 2008 to 2011 is all but entirely overlooked as a casualty of the recession, evident even by BA's hiring requirements. Thus, being good business people P2F firms like EagleJet found a way to make money by offering something that was required. They play a similar role to the Integrated schools in sourcing pilots and profit from them in almost the same way.
There is a way to fix it in UK and that is to follow a similar route to Germany that places no bias on where you train but rather on a fair and universal test. But airlines need to change their attitude towards cadets and the regulators/unions need to realize whats actually happening rather than brown nosing each other. Until then, stop showing an air of superiority and claiming you're more of a 'professional' pilot than someone else because it comes off as very unprofessional. There are bad eggs in all baskets and each person is a victim of their circumstances and choices. So, good luck to all pilots since we all share the same airspace.
It's a numbers game, an airline's market and either way you pay the same price. Sure you can argue the standard of flying differs but, experience makes up for it and any pilot could make a mistake at any time. That's why we become first officers to learn from our mistakes. The only reason I don't condone p2f is because it's biased towards the wealthier but not necessarily the less apt individual. In today's debt strapped money hungry world no one wants the risk of guaranteeing another individuals skills. Thus, very few airlines offer a bond these days of which most are very well established airlines or airlines from rich countries and a cadet pilot is forced to bear their own risk. The route for the self improver traditionally used to be through regionals and to the majors.
With the downsizing over the last few years regionals stopped hiring thus removing a method for most self improvers to progress in their careers. And recently with the introduction of MPL and already established Integrated schools signing on new training contracts with regionals and majors. The self improver that trained between 2008 to 2011 is all but entirely overlooked as a casualty of the recession, evident even by BA's hiring requirements. Thus, being good business people P2F firms like EagleJet found a way to make money by offering something that was required. They play a similar role to the Integrated schools in sourcing pilots and profit from them in almost the same way.
There is a way to fix it in UK and that is to follow a similar route to Germany that places no bias on where you train but rather on a fair and universal test. But airlines need to change their attitude towards cadets and the regulators/unions need to realize whats actually happening rather than brown nosing each other. Until then, stop showing an air of superiority and claiming you're more of a 'professional' pilot than someone else because it comes off as very unprofessional. There are bad eggs in all baskets and each person is a victim of their circumstances and choices. So, good luck to all pilots since we all share the same airspace.
Last edited by dood; 6th Dec 2011 at 20:18. Reason: spelling
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Jetjockey,
Many thanks for your input! It is very great to read your story, this is a real story you know what I mean.. there are plenty of stories at PPRune about Lion Air and P2F schemes, but this it the real world like you say, well done mate. But really, do you make 5000usd as a FO? I thought it was something like 2000usd? That was for CAE guys, but you got in with EagleJet and then got the 1 year contract as well, good job.
What are your plans mate? Goint to Qatar as well?
Many thanks for your input! It is very great to read your story, this is a real story you know what I mean.. there are plenty of stories at PPRune about Lion Air and P2F schemes, but this it the real world like you say, well done mate. But really, do you make 5000usd as a FO? I thought it was something like 2000usd? That was for CAE guys, but you got in with EagleJet and then got the 1 year contract as well, good job.
What are your plans mate? Goint to Qatar as well?
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Delaying the pain
Well I have ranted enough on here about P2f but a guy I was talking too has a pretty down to earth way of looking at it.
P2f is like you dad knowing someone at a charter/regional/banner towing company. You get a job with them because of your connections. You get to clock up some decent hours but eventually you have to move on. Now if your mum/uncle etc has been around aviation for a while they might know the HR manager at a regional airline who can squeeze you in but highly unlikely. So now you have 1000TT with some multi (possibly) and your looking to move up. You send out Resumes and get a few interviews. The only problem is you don't get a job. Plenty of interest but no trophy. Why? because you may have a bad attitude,bad IF skills,rubbish interview technique etc. It's the same with P2f. Your buying 500 hours. Regardless of if you have a 1,2 or three year whatever contract at the end. In reality you paid for it. Having a contract at the end just makes it a more attractive P2f scheme.
So you have completed your P2f scheme. Remember its a user pays scheme. Unless your complete crap at flying a plane you will get on one regardless of all the people saying the sim ride is super hard and they are super picky. You got a one year contract at the end. Now your Resume sort of looks like you worked and didn't P2f. You go for some interviews and some of you may/may not land a job. It's a big gamble. Pay to fly is the same as daddy calling his old school chum and getting you your first job. Unless that first job is in a DHC 8 or a A320, you will eventually have to go get a job for yourself. This is where you find out if you are really are cut out to be a pilot.
.
P2f is like you dad knowing someone at a charter/regional/banner towing company. You get a job with them because of your connections. You get to clock up some decent hours but eventually you have to move on. Now if your mum/uncle etc has been around aviation for a while they might know the HR manager at a regional airline who can squeeze you in but highly unlikely. So now you have 1000TT with some multi (possibly) and your looking to move up. You send out Resumes and get a few interviews. The only problem is you don't get a job. Plenty of interest but no trophy. Why? because you may have a bad attitude,bad IF skills,rubbish interview technique etc. It's the same with P2f. Your buying 500 hours. Regardless of if you have a 1,2 or three year whatever contract at the end. In reality you paid for it. Having a contract at the end just makes it a more attractive P2f scheme.
So you have completed your P2f scheme. Remember its a user pays scheme. Unless your complete crap at flying a plane you will get on one regardless of all the people saying the sim ride is super hard and they are super picky. You got a one year contract at the end. Now your Resume sort of looks like you worked and didn't P2f. You go for some interviews and some of you may/may not land a job. It's a big gamble. Pay to fly is the same as daddy calling his old school chum and getting you your first job. Unless that first job is in a DHC 8 or a A320, you will eventually have to go get a job for yourself. This is where you find out if you are really are cut out to be a pilot.
.
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Thanks gents. Lion Air will never get my business and fly me or my family.
I just don't buy the whole 200 hour, fresh out of a Seneca or Seminole, and into a B-737 or A320 simply because an FO forked over some serious cash, and not because they are the best available candidate. Far too much liability is put on that captain and babysitting.
So Mr. 88, you want to do this scheme because you get a job afterward? Clearly logic and math aren't your strong points, are they? With more and more lost souls like yourself rushing with their cheque books to do these schemes, you are effectively eliminating higher paying jobs.
Just stop and think... why should an employer pay you a good wage when there's another idiot right behind you with a cheque willing to pay them to do the job they should be paying you to do? Why are you paying an airline for the privilege of generating revenue for them? It's not like they can generate any revenue without a guy in the right seat. Again, bean counters 1, pilots -1 (epic fail!)
Again gents, if you want to pay to fly, rent a Cessna 172... hell, you can buy one and fly it for a lot less than the cost of your "line training."
I just don't buy the whole 200 hour, fresh out of a Seneca or Seminole, and into a B-737 or A320 simply because an FO forked over some serious cash, and not because they are the best available candidate. Far too much liability is put on that captain and babysitting.
So Mr. 88, you want to do this scheme because you get a job afterward? Clearly logic and math aren't your strong points, are they? With more and more lost souls like yourself rushing with their cheque books to do these schemes, you are effectively eliminating higher paying jobs.
Just stop and think... why should an employer pay you a good wage when there's another idiot right behind you with a cheque willing to pay them to do the job they should be paying you to do? Why are you paying an airline for the privilege of generating revenue for them? It's not like they can generate any revenue without a guy in the right seat. Again, bean counters 1, pilots -1 (epic fail!)
Again gents, if you want to pay to fly, rent a Cessna 172... hell, you can buy one and fly it for a lot less than the cost of your "line training."
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Guys think they can be hired with their 500h of 737 when they are in a catch 22.
Catch-22 (logic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a pilot tries to get a pilot job but he has to pay to work, but they won't hire him because without money he can not get a job".
Who will hire them when you just need to hire a guy who pay you to do the job.
If I had a house, and need a gardener, why should I pay a man when he offered me free service or even give me money to take care of my backyard.
think about it? if people give you money in exchange of experience, would you refuse?
what is their plan afterward, go to British airways? not a chance.
crap airline, crap SOP, crap managment, crap training, crap pilots...
and where are these pilots now? no one say anything here so I resume they are sitting at home looking for a job or looking for another round of 500h to reach their 1500h tt minimum requirement to get a job...
If it was so easy, just a cheque of 30'000 euro for 500h, and after FO for 4-5 years then captain, everybody would do it.
Until now, this industry is not interested by low time copilots, because their goal is to get copilots to become captain. If you don't have 5000h or more, just forget about it, they will just take your money.
It s not fair, I know, but airlines don't care about you and your career of spoiled kid, they are business, not charity, and it's not because you have a cpl and a few hours on the 320 (that you have paid) , they have to give you a paid job.
If they can get a pilot for free, they will take him, and you are out again.And if someone pay to work, the free pilot is out as well.
And the only way to get paid, it s when there will be less pilots than jobs available, and it will be probably never, not in the next 10 years. Maybe in the USA, but not in the rest of the world.
.
Catch-22 (logic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a pilot tries to get a pilot job but he has to pay to work, but they won't hire him because without money he can not get a job".
Who will hire them when you just need to hire a guy who pay you to do the job.
If I had a house, and need a gardener, why should I pay a man when he offered me free service or even give me money to take care of my backyard.
think about it? if people give you money in exchange of experience, would you refuse?
what is their plan afterward, go to British airways? not a chance.
crap airline, crap SOP, crap managment, crap training, crap pilots...
and where are these pilots now? no one say anything here so I resume they are sitting at home looking for a job or looking for another round of 500h to reach their 1500h tt minimum requirement to get a job...
If it was so easy, just a cheque of 30'000 euro for 500h, and after FO for 4-5 years then captain, everybody would do it.
Until now, this industry is not interested by low time copilots, because their goal is to get copilots to become captain. If you don't have 5000h or more, just forget about it, they will just take your money.
It s not fair, I know, but airlines don't care about you and your career of spoiled kid, they are business, not charity, and it's not because you have a cpl and a few hours on the 320 (that you have paid) , they have to give you a paid job.
If they can get a pilot for free, they will take him, and you are out again.And if someone pay to work, the free pilot is out as well.
And the only way to get paid, it s when there will be less pilots than jobs available, and it will be probably never, not in the next 10 years. Maybe in the USA, but not in the rest of the world.
.