Infinte Type Rated Pilots it seems!!
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I, for one, am not comfortable when I find out that the two pilots in the front office have a combined total time less than 5000 hours. Sure I can understand it on a Caravan, or a 210, but in a 737? No. Scares the pants off me to think that I'm trusting my life, and the lives of my family to some kids who're younger than my own sons (And I'm only 50).
One could also argue that paying for a type, working for a low cost carrier and getting paid only when you fly, is starting at the bottom!
Times are changing, years ago you'd have said no way to removing the flight engineers and navigators from the cockpit but they're gone.
Flying is easier now with the technology. Perhaps those saying you need to get 10 years flying a saab 2000 before hitting a jet, perhaps aren't as natural to flying then others. Harsh, but perhaps also true?
Darkrooms comments almost sound like those coming from someone in a midlife crisis...we're all getting older mate, everyone seems younger now then what we were when we did the same things. I notice this especially in bars I hit when at Uni, everyone there looks so much younger then I was when I started going there, fact is, they aren't!
Times are changing, years ago you'd have said no way to removing the flight engineers and navigators from the cockpit but they're gone.
Flying is easier now with the technology. Perhaps those saying you need to get 10 years flying a saab 2000 before hitting a jet, perhaps aren't as natural to flying then others. Harsh, but perhaps also true?
Darkrooms comments almost sound like those coming from someone in a midlife crisis...we're all getting older mate, everyone seems younger now then what we were when we did the same things. I notice this especially in bars I hit when at Uni, everyone there looks so much younger then I was when I started going there, fact is, they aren't!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VJW - you're hilarious!
"Going BA and waiting 10 years for an upgrade doesn't sound appealing if I'm honest"
It was only a couple of weeks ago that you were on the BA interview thread crowing to the world that you'd got an impending interview with them...... guess you fell at the first fence right!?
You also seem to be applying to every other airline out there - TCX, BMIbaby etc. Life at RYR so great that you can't wait to leave?
"Going BA and waiting 10 years for an upgrade doesn't sound appealing if I'm honest"
It was only a couple of weeks ago that you were on the BA interview thread crowing to the world that you'd got an impending interview with them...... guess you fell at the first fence right!?
You also seem to be applying to every other airline out there - TCX, BMIbaby etc. Life at RYR so great that you can't wait to leave?
Last edited by Flaperon75; 30th Dec 2010 at 20:09.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tamworth, UK / Nairobi, Kenya
Posts: 616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow!
I opened up a can of worms didn't I?
2600 horus can easily be achieved in with just two years experience of actually line flying. It is, however only equal to one and a half years of working at any other job.
I am pointing out that 2600 hours sounds like a lot, but it is in fact very very inexperienced, when one considers that if one is to get a degree, in say history, or accounting, or computer science, one will have more than 2600 hours of "training" before one graduates with a bachelors.
To consider yourself experience with 2600 hours is ludicrous.
Compared to 250 hours, sure you're experienced, but that's like a senior in college comparing themselves to a high school student. The senior has much more background, sure, but nowhere near as much as the person who's been doing the job for 10 years.
It's not got anything to do with how well you fly the plane, I don't pay my $1000 for a ticket because I want someone who can fly the plane, anyone can fly the plane, especially with all the current technology (this is an exageration, I know that not just anyone can fly the plane). What we, the flying public are paying for, is to have a pilot in the front who's got enough experience to know how to react in an emergency.
Look at the FO who just recently was unable to recover the plane when he disconnected the autopilot when he moved his seat forward, and the captain had to come back into the cockpit before he could finish in the toilet.
And the fact that you can SOOOO upset, shows the level of maturity you have not reached.
I opened up a can of worms didn't I?
2600 horus can easily be achieved in with just two years experience of actually line flying. It is, however only equal to one and a half years of working at any other job.
I am pointing out that 2600 hours sounds like a lot, but it is in fact very very inexperienced, when one considers that if one is to get a degree, in say history, or accounting, or computer science, one will have more than 2600 hours of "training" before one graduates with a bachelors.
To consider yourself experience with 2600 hours is ludicrous.
Compared to 250 hours, sure you're experienced, but that's like a senior in college comparing themselves to a high school student. The senior has much more background, sure, but nowhere near as much as the person who's been doing the job for 10 years.
It's not got anything to do with how well you fly the plane, I don't pay my $1000 for a ticket because I want someone who can fly the plane, anyone can fly the plane, especially with all the current technology (this is an exageration, I know that not just anyone can fly the plane). What we, the flying public are paying for, is to have a pilot in the front who's got enough experience to know how to react in an emergency.
Look at the FO who just recently was unable to recover the plane when he disconnected the autopilot when he moved his seat forward, and the captain had to come back into the cockpit before he could finish in the toilet.
And the fact that you can SOOOO upset, shows the level of maturity you have not reached.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by darkroomsource
2600 horus can easily be achieved in with just two years experience of actually line flying. It is, however only equal to one and a half years of working at any other job.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Darkroom, I think you are missing my point. I agree, people who put their families on aeroplanes want guys experienced, not just in aviation but life.
With my 2600, I said I am relatively experienced, I did not call myself Chuck Yeagar. Put me with a 4500 hour captain and there is 7000 hours up front.
I was emphasising the point, that after a city career in I.T. which admittedly I did not mention, I was willing to start again and learn and earn my stripes to be able to fly a 737.
I did do a 4 year degree, got that experience, then got to a high management position running teams and projects, then did start again in aviation learning the ropes, building my way up and appreciating what is required in the decision making process which unfortunately a 22 year old who pays for a type rating with RYR just could not comprehend because they have not done it.
Ask yourself this, what is the point of experience if we can all just buy our way into a right hand seat once we have a license and IR. As somebody who has a masters degree in computer science, believe me, I understand more than most how easy it is to plug some numbers into an FMS and 'Monitor'.
The question is, does one understand the process of making the decision that could save lives when technology, captain or both are not their to hold your hand. All I have been saying is that I have a great appreciation for having the chance to gain that experience to make decisions on my own and keep learning which is what is missing in aviation today.
With my 2600, I said I am relatively experienced, I did not call myself Chuck Yeagar. Put me with a 4500 hour captain and there is 7000 hours up front.
I was emphasising the point, that after a city career in I.T. which admittedly I did not mention, I was willing to start again and learn and earn my stripes to be able to fly a 737.
I did do a 4 year degree, got that experience, then got to a high management position running teams and projects, then did start again in aviation learning the ropes, building my way up and appreciating what is required in the decision making process which unfortunately a 22 year old who pays for a type rating with RYR just could not comprehend because they have not done it.
Ask yourself this, what is the point of experience if we can all just buy our way into a right hand seat once we have a license and IR. As somebody who has a masters degree in computer science, believe me, I understand more than most how easy it is to plug some numbers into an FMS and 'Monitor'.
The question is, does one understand the process of making the decision that could save lives when technology, captain or both are not their to hold your hand. All I have been saying is that I have a great appreciation for having the chance to gain that experience to make decisions on my own and keep learning which is what is missing in aviation today.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: europe
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems that the term "experienced" is quite subjectif. Yes you can be experienced with 1600 king air time. Depends what you did with king air.
I have friends who are "experienced" on their boeing doing everyday the same track although they've never been in Russia, Africa etc.
I'm doing a lot of flights to Russia, Africa and ME but not on an boeing/airbus but on a private jet.
So am i less "experienced" than they are or are they just more "experienced" than i am??
I have friends who are "experienced" on their boeing doing everyday the same track although they've never been in Russia, Africa etc.
I'm doing a lot of flights to Russia, Africa and ME but not on an boeing/airbus but on a private jet.
So am i less "experienced" than they are or are they just more "experienced" than i am??
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Earlier this year I operated a heavy crew flight (2 captains and a first officer,) where we discovered that between the 3 of us, and in roughly equal measure, we had 45,000 hours experience on the same type and for the same company.
Despite that, there isn't a day that goes by without the realization that you are still fallible, and always have something new to learn.
Despite that, there isn't a day that goes by without the realization that you are still fallible, and always have something new to learn.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Inner, I guess we are all experienced in our own way, but less experienced in others like you pointed out.
The issue is, how do we go about getting that experience so that everybody benefits as a whole wether it be pilots, pax etc.
Someone pointed out earlier, in the good old days, you started in the mail room and worked your way up, I agree with that thought process in aviation.
Lets be honest, most passengers dont want to get on a plane and see a 22 year old pilot in either the left or right hand seat of a 737.
And with regards to how I started this whole thread, any ideas when we are nearing the end of an abundance of type rated guys anybody!! Im actually job hunting and trying to get bonded to some airline/corporate/cargo company... need to pay the bills.
The issue is, how do we go about getting that experience so that everybody benefits as a whole wether it be pilots, pax etc.
Someone pointed out earlier, in the good old days, you started in the mail room and worked your way up, I agree with that thought process in aviation.
Lets be honest, most passengers dont want to get on a plane and see a 22 year old pilot in either the left or right hand seat of a 737.
And with regards to how I started this whole thread, any ideas when we are nearing the end of an abundance of type rated guys anybody!! Im actually job hunting and trying to get bonded to some airline/corporate/cargo company... need to pay the bills.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tamworth, UK / Nairobi, Kenya
Posts: 616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You clearly aren't a pilot. EU OPS limits maximum block hours for flight crew to a maximum of 900 hours per year, although in reality, most pilots in airlines do about 800 block hours. The biggest mistake you made is compare flight (block hours) with working hours of an accountant. Block time starts when the aircraft starts to move on its on power and end when the aircraft comes to a complete stop on the blocks, not when a pilots shows for work and leaves after final flight of the day. Comparing block time to 9-5 job of some accountant -
And I have had a career in business.
And I know that a pilot can get at most 1000 hours in a year. and even if you only figure 800 hours, that's a whopping 3 years of experience.
But you have to SUBTRACT the time that would be the equivalent of getting your degree in the REAL WORLD, so you have to subtract four years of "experience" and what do you have? a negative balance.
I am NOT saying that 2600 hours is nothing.
I AM saying that 2600 is not "experienced" it is just a newbie.
And "a 4500 hour" captain plus 2500 FO means 7000 hours. well that's just a grand total of less than 10 years combined.
I wouldn't put a project manager on building a $300 million factory who had less than 10 years experience, plus a 4 year degree, why would I put less experience in charge of a $300 million airplane with 400 lives at stake?
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tamworth, UK / Nairobi, Kenya
Posts: 616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets be honest, most passengers dont want to get on a plane and see a 22 year old pilot in either the left or right hand seat of a 737.
And with regards to how I started this whole thread, any ideas when we are nearing the end of an abundance of type rated guys anybody!! Im actually job hunting and trying to get bonded to some airline/corporate/cargo company... need to pay the bills.
And with regards to how I started this whole thread, any ideas when we are nearing the end of an abundance of type rated guys anybody!! Im actually job hunting and trying to get bonded to some airline/corporate/cargo company... need to pay the bills.
That is probably the question to ask, and when you have the answer, then you know where you need to go to get a gig (if you're 22 years old).
And if you're older, and just starting, you have to realize that flight experience wise, you're basically the same, and so you have to start at one of those jobs.
From what I can tell, those are the small cargo ops, the small pax ops - Cessna 210's 206's, maybe a caravan - then after you've got a couple years experience doing that you can move up to the smaller regionals - ie. cape air, and then with a few more years you move on to something bigger. If that's the case, there aren't a whole lot of type ratings required before the first 5 or 6 years are done.
I am finding that there is a difference between types of experience too.
For example, if you've got a few thousand hours experience flying the family, that's one kind, but flying the line is different, and it's not about the "flying" as much as working within an organization in the difference between the family and the line.
It would seem to me that companies are also going to see cargo flying differntly from pax flying. One's usually all night flying for example.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VJW- I think you like many others fail to appreciate just how fortunate you were to secure a jet job with such low hours, and because of this you automatically feel entitled to further fast track progression.
I notice from some of your comments that you're very defensive of your airline, but why may I ask have you in the past few months applied for just about every jet job going?
Thankfully airlines such as BA that you choose to openly criticize have a tried and tested selection, and from that they are easily able to recognize anf reject characters like yourself. Perhaps being rejected adds to your bitterness?!
Either way, good luck in your continued endeavours to leave Ryanair!
I notice from some of your comments that you're very defensive of your airline, but why may I ask have you in the past few months applied for just about every jet job going?
Thankfully airlines such as BA that you choose to openly criticize have a tried and tested selection, and from that they are easily able to recognize anf reject characters like yourself. Perhaps being rejected adds to your bitterness?!
Either way, good luck in your continued endeavours to leave Ryanair!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"So where DOES the public expect to see a 22 year old in one of the seats up front?"
In the front of a Caravan, a King Air, a Cessna 206, a Chieftain, a Citation Jet, a Beech 400, a Beech 1900, a Dornier 228, a Pilatus, a Beech 99, an MU-2, a Cessna 421, a Q400, a Dash-8, an EMB-120, etc.
Basically there are many aircraft with forgiving characteristics that let a pilot make their mistakes and correct them without catastrophic results. Most jets, save the Citations and Beech 400s, will not allow for a newer pilot to make the errors necessary for learning without major problems. Often times newer pilots will get behind aircraft, even if those pilots have logged 10,000 hours in a jet as an SIC they will find themselves in a whole new world when their name is under the PIC column of that dispatch release.
It is imperative for any good pilot to have left seat, real PIC time. I'm not talking about flying a jet or handling the yoke. I mean making the big decisions from the moment you show up at work to the moment you duty off. As I said before, a real pilot's skill isn't how smoothly they can land but how well they can plan and execute a flight in its entirety. This can only come from being in the left seat and baring the burden of command.
A young pilot that has never bore that burden and made those decisions in their entire career will be ill equipped when they upgrade. It's easy sitting in that right seat and playing armchair quarterback, but without the time gained making real decisions while commanding a flight you will flounder and you will make more mistakes than someone who has experience sitting in the captain's chair. I'd rather my pilot made their "stupid mistakes" in a King Air moving along at a comfortably slow cruise than a 737 packed with happy vacationers rocketing around at .78 mach.
We all make mistakes, we learn from them too. I can go through a lifetime of near death experiences and diaper changes I encountered in my early flying days. I made those mistakes and escaped with my life because the plane I flew allowed me to slow or turn tightly or land in a forgiving manner. Then I took the lessons learned from that sheer terror or humiliation and applied it to how I made decisions in jets. If I was in a 737 or a Gulfstream when I had gained my hubris there's a good chance I wouldn't be writing this today.
In the front of a Caravan, a King Air, a Cessna 206, a Chieftain, a Citation Jet, a Beech 400, a Beech 1900, a Dornier 228, a Pilatus, a Beech 99, an MU-2, a Cessna 421, a Q400, a Dash-8, an EMB-120, etc.
Basically there are many aircraft with forgiving characteristics that let a pilot make their mistakes and correct them without catastrophic results. Most jets, save the Citations and Beech 400s, will not allow for a newer pilot to make the errors necessary for learning without major problems. Often times newer pilots will get behind aircraft, even if those pilots have logged 10,000 hours in a jet as an SIC they will find themselves in a whole new world when their name is under the PIC column of that dispatch release.
It is imperative for any good pilot to have left seat, real PIC time. I'm not talking about flying a jet or handling the yoke. I mean making the big decisions from the moment you show up at work to the moment you duty off. As I said before, a real pilot's skill isn't how smoothly they can land but how well they can plan and execute a flight in its entirety. This can only come from being in the left seat and baring the burden of command.
A young pilot that has never bore that burden and made those decisions in their entire career will be ill equipped when they upgrade. It's easy sitting in that right seat and playing armchair quarterback, but without the time gained making real decisions while commanding a flight you will flounder and you will make more mistakes than someone who has experience sitting in the captain's chair. I'd rather my pilot made their "stupid mistakes" in a King Air moving along at a comfortably slow cruise than a 737 packed with happy vacationers rocketing around at .78 mach.
We all make mistakes, we learn from them too. I can go through a lifetime of near death experiences and diaper changes I encountered in my early flying days. I made those mistakes and escaped with my life because the plane I flew allowed me to slow or turn tightly or land in a forgiving manner. Then I took the lessons learned from that sheer terror or humiliation and applied it to how I made decisions in jets. If I was in a 737 or a Gulfstream when I had gained my hubris there's a good chance I wouldn't be writing this today.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: at the whim of people I've never met
Age: 46
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Darkroom - the irrefutable fact of the matter is, most of the flying public couldn't give a rats arse about who sits in the flight-deck.
The vast majority of passengers (certainly in Europe but it all started in the good old US of A) want to get there for the least possible amount of money. This is why the lo cost model is so rampant and the likes of Ryanair carry more passengers than the legacies.
Flying is routine and with the locked door policy, Jo Public almost never sees who (or how old) the 2 people up front are. The first time any consideration will be given is when it is evident that the proverbial poo is hitting the fan - and that just (almost) never ever happens.
So it's all well and good for you and others to sit in your armchair and pontificate about why YOU would never hire such people into YOUR airline - the the fact remains, YOU are not running an airline. So your opinion in fact counts for sod all. It is just that, an opinion like anyone else's. You are entitled to it and so is anyone else.
As a side note - how many serious incidents / accidents have occurred with inexperienced newbies (lets say less than 3000 hours using your yardstick - which incidentally could be 8-10 years experience in my sector of the industry) compared to the old timers at the controls? Just what percentage of Darkroom's tiny 2600 hours would have been racked up at FL350+ for over 8 hour sectors with the autopilot doing the work - gosh you really learn your trade in the cruise don't you???? Total volume of hours is not in itself the only way of measuring experience.
Without diving into the details, seems to me that the likes of American, Delta, United etc etc etc have lost more hulls than Ryanair and EasyJet (and those two companies complete a HUGE number of sectors per year combined) - clearly it hasn't been many in recent years, perhaps technology does have an impact?
The vast majority of passengers (certainly in Europe but it all started in the good old US of A) want to get there for the least possible amount of money. This is why the lo cost model is so rampant and the likes of Ryanair carry more passengers than the legacies.
Flying is routine and with the locked door policy, Jo Public almost never sees who (or how old) the 2 people up front are. The first time any consideration will be given is when it is evident that the proverbial poo is hitting the fan - and that just (almost) never ever happens.
So it's all well and good for you and others to sit in your armchair and pontificate about why YOU would never hire such people into YOUR airline - the the fact remains, YOU are not running an airline. So your opinion in fact counts for sod all. It is just that, an opinion like anyone else's. You are entitled to it and so is anyone else.
As a side note - how many serious incidents / accidents have occurred with inexperienced newbies (lets say less than 3000 hours using your yardstick - which incidentally could be 8-10 years experience in my sector of the industry) compared to the old timers at the controls? Just what percentage of Darkroom's tiny 2600 hours would have been racked up at FL350+ for over 8 hour sectors with the autopilot doing the work - gosh you really learn your trade in the cruise don't you???? Total volume of hours is not in itself the only way of measuring experience.
Without diving into the details, seems to me that the likes of American, Delta, United etc etc etc have lost more hulls than Ryanair and EasyJet (and those two companies complete a HUGE number of sectors per year combined) - clearly it hasn't been many in recent years, perhaps technology does have an impact?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VJW, the simple fact is that it is people like you that brought all our Ts and Cs down to what they are. I hope it all bites you in the arse one day.
Pilots with limited skill and a fat wallet from either their oldies or a remortgaged house. Congratulations. Its not competition that you have created its a cancer.
My limited 25yrs in the industry has made me very very weary of people like you. I dont want to sit next to you or even talk to you in the crew room. You are a breed of your own and so obviously happy with screwing the industry to make your bosses happy just so you and your own are ok...Well down boyo.
Pilots with limited skill and a fat wallet from either their oldies or a remortgaged house. Congratulations. Its not competition that you have created its a cancer.
My limited 25yrs in the industry has made me very very weary of people like you. I dont want to sit next to you or even talk to you in the crew room. You are a breed of your own and so obviously happy with screwing the industry to make your bosses happy just so you and your own are ok...Well down boyo.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VIRGA,
Quote: VIRGA.
"Pilots with limited skill and a fat wallet from either their oldies or a remortgaged house. Congratulations. Its not competition that you have created, its a cancer."
AND
"My limited 25yrs in the industry has made me very very weary of people like you. I dont want to sit next to you or even talk to you in the crew room. You are a breed of your own and so obviously happy with screwing the industry to make your bosses happy just so you and your own are ok".
VIRGA: Re-mortgaged house?
Yes...that's the best way to obtain money and pay for a type rating.
If the folks have extra cash then, that's a bonus!
**From what i can gather with your post ,you haven't used your money wisely in your younger years and you don't have access to lower interest loans, such as mortgaged home loans.
So now you envy people that have access to cash, at low interest loans.
*Well, you have definetly stuffed up the money somewhere along the way, in your fabulous life, for you to respond in this fashion.
**bokboy22:
Why don't you just appy to the main carriers and see how you go?
If you were just a co-pilot in the kingair, then that's useful but it's not to
glamorous, as you have a captain watching all your moves!
What are you expecting?
The world to move for you?
I would say a kid out of school, with a CPL/ME IR and ATPL subjects, could challenge you with you general knowledge and skill!
You got to be aware of that!
If you haven't moved forward from your king air days, then you never will?
Quote: VIRGA.
"Pilots with limited skill and a fat wallet from either their oldies or a remortgaged house. Congratulations. Its not competition that you have created, its a cancer."
AND
"My limited 25yrs in the industry has made me very very weary of people like you. I dont want to sit next to you or even talk to you in the crew room. You are a breed of your own and so obviously happy with screwing the industry to make your bosses happy just so you and your own are ok".
VIRGA: Re-mortgaged house?
Yes...that's the best way to obtain money and pay for a type rating.
If the folks have extra cash then, that's a bonus!
**From what i can gather with your post ,you haven't used your money wisely in your younger years and you don't have access to lower interest loans, such as mortgaged home loans.
So now you envy people that have access to cash, at low interest loans.
*Well, you have definetly stuffed up the money somewhere along the way, in your fabulous life, for you to respond in this fashion.
**bokboy22:
Why don't you just appy to the main carriers and see how you go?
If you were just a co-pilot in the kingair, then that's useful but it's not to
glamorous, as you have a captain watching all your moves!
What are you expecting?
The world to move for you?
I would say a kid out of school, with a CPL/ME IR and ATPL subjects, could challenge you with you general knowledge and skill!
You got to be aware of that!
If you haven't moved forward from your king air days, then you never will?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have posted this before but will offer this analysis again.
I hold that it will increasingly prove difficult to earn a "plausible living" performing what is essentially a blue collar function that others are willing to pay to do.
So............
Whilst flying desperately retains its last morsels of kudos, young 'pasty faced' little boys will take their walking talking daddy wallets down to Oxford to attend a highly polished open day. Following a thorough assessment day, and now armed with an apositely aquired confirmation bias, Oxfords cash till can ring again. (Timothy did so very well in those difficult computer tests.)
Dinner party's at M n D's now routinely turn to the challenges of flying a modern jet; our 'pasty faced' lad is delighted to elucidate much to the delight of his parents! That JOC course has been most useful. Mum glows with pride each time Timothy comes home, (with his washing), wearing that smart Oxford Uniform carrying a ridiculous brief case included in the course price at no extra cost. The stickers were extra.
But, now armed with his MEP/IR MCC and JOC, employent just isn't beating the path to the door. (Times have been hard you know in all industry's, not just aviation.)
Faced with the social indignity of mums bridge group learning that 'Timothy' is working at B & Q and flying 3 hours a month on a 150 Aerobat further funding is soon made available to secure 'our' rightful place on a TR / Flexiscrew, P2F similar. After all, these lads are the lucky ones.
It's a great result!!! Timothy gets to play pilot, Mum gets to 'blow off' at Bridge Club. But, best of all, Wayne n Tracy get a well deserved subsidized 'junket' to Benidorm. Rightly so, didn't the bible did predict that 'the meek would inherit the earth'? or cheap air fares anyway!
For my part, I truely hope that my son will NOT follow in his fathers foot steps. ( Unless he stays in military service for a full career ).
I hold that it will increasingly prove difficult to earn a "plausible living" performing what is essentially a blue collar function that others are willing to pay to do.
So............
Whilst flying desperately retains its last morsels of kudos, young 'pasty faced' little boys will take their walking talking daddy wallets down to Oxford to attend a highly polished open day. Following a thorough assessment day, and now armed with an apositely aquired confirmation bias, Oxfords cash till can ring again. (Timothy did so very well in those difficult computer tests.)
Dinner party's at M n D's now routinely turn to the challenges of flying a modern jet; our 'pasty faced' lad is delighted to elucidate much to the delight of his parents! That JOC course has been most useful. Mum glows with pride each time Timothy comes home, (with his washing), wearing that smart Oxford Uniform carrying a ridiculous brief case included in the course price at no extra cost. The stickers were extra.
But, now armed with his MEP/IR MCC and JOC, employent just isn't beating the path to the door. (Times have been hard you know in all industry's, not just aviation.)
Faced with the social indignity of mums bridge group learning that 'Timothy' is working at B & Q and flying 3 hours a month on a 150 Aerobat further funding is soon made available to secure 'our' rightful place on a TR / Flexiscrew, P2F similar. After all, these lads are the lucky ones.
It's a great result!!! Timothy gets to play pilot, Mum gets to 'blow off' at Bridge Club. But, best of all, Wayne n Tracy get a well deserved subsidized 'junket' to Benidorm. Rightly so, didn't the bible did predict that 'the meek would inherit the earth'? or cheap air fares anyway!
For my part, I truely hope that my son will NOT follow in his fathers foot steps. ( Unless he stays in military service for a full career ).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Southerskyze, I have been applying but as I wont buy my way in, Im no use until there is a shortage, that is part of my gripe. I was willing to go out and earn my stripes by starting at the bottom and working my way up.
I wanted to get my pic time, even if it was on multi piston, then turbine, but at least I earned it and now feel in aviation I would make a good F.O. in an airline/corporate and work my way to captaincy.
I have been making command decisions, flight planning, understanding what is required to conduct a safe flight knowing the buck stops at me and Im responsible.
I also dont want to be part of the crowd dragging down our T's and C's. I could have bought a type rating as well and joined RYR, Easy etc but I dont feel that is right (just my opinion) until you have actual experience conducting smaller less important flights so you actually gain real worl exprience.
Someone mentioned earlier that BA, Virgin etc all ask for 500 on type bfore they hire you. The reason they do that now is because the 20 year old 200 hour hero was impatient, all started buying there way in, thus our flight pay has plummeted and now that they know they can make us pay, they do!!
Before, it was experience that counted, regardless of what or where you went to fly, you still had to do a type rating, be trained and all the rest, but at least your first job was not an A320 doing .82 with no real worl experience or understanding of what is actually happening.
Virga and a few others are merely trying to state like myself, experience counts, be patient, learn your trade, get an understanding an appreciation for what is going on and progress properly and safely, nothing wrong with that.
I wanted to get my pic time, even if it was on multi piston, then turbine, but at least I earned it and now feel in aviation I would make a good F.O. in an airline/corporate and work my way to captaincy.
I have been making command decisions, flight planning, understanding what is required to conduct a safe flight knowing the buck stops at me and Im responsible.
I also dont want to be part of the crowd dragging down our T's and C's. I could have bought a type rating as well and joined RYR, Easy etc but I dont feel that is right (just my opinion) until you have actual experience conducting smaller less important flights so you actually gain real worl exprience.
Someone mentioned earlier that BA, Virgin etc all ask for 500 on type bfore they hire you. The reason they do that now is because the 20 year old 200 hour hero was impatient, all started buying there way in, thus our flight pay has plummeted and now that they know they can make us pay, they do!!
Before, it was experience that counted, regardless of what or where you went to fly, you still had to do a type rating, be trained and all the rest, but at least your first job was not an A320 doing .82 with no real worl experience or understanding of what is actually happening.
Virga and a few others are merely trying to state like myself, experience counts, be patient, learn your trade, get an understanding an appreciation for what is going on and progress properly and safely, nothing wrong with that.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, another thing just to clarify, I dont expect an airline/ corporate etc to pay for everything and a pilot can just leave when they please.
Im very open to being bonded through service agreements of 3 to 5 years depending on cost, type etc, even deductions from your salary.. just not buying your way in through type ratings or pay to fly.
I wish other pilots would think and consider the industry as a whole before doing some of the things they do, as one day, you will be the experienced guy/gal with your T's and C's in the gutter due to the next lot buying into everything!!
I do hope we all have that 1500 hour rule soon like the US before you can join an airline, with 500 multi PIC... The industry will drastically improve then!!
Im very open to being bonded through service agreements of 3 to 5 years depending on cost, type etc, even deductions from your salary.. just not buying your way in through type ratings or pay to fly.
I wish other pilots would think and consider the industry as a whole before doing some of the things they do, as one day, you will be the experienced guy/gal with your T's and C's in the gutter due to the next lot buying into everything!!
I do hope we all have that 1500 hour rule soon like the US before you can join an airline, with 500 multi PIC... The industry will drastically improve then!!
The 1500 hour rule would spell the end for lots of wannabes.
In the US there is a GA industry that can provide employment for the large number of low houred pilots. In the UK there is not.
Imagine how hard it would be to get the job on the Kingair if we had that rule. There would be hundreds of applicants and a large portion of those would be willing to pay for the priviledge. It would make things worse.
The people getting the jobs would be foreigners from countries that have large GA industries such as Oz, USA and millitary pilots.
If this ever does come to Euroland expect to see 0-1500 hour P2F courses for £200,000+. They would probably be queing up to do it as well.
In the US there is a GA industry that can provide employment for the large number of low houred pilots. In the UK there is not.
Imagine how hard it would be to get the job on the Kingair if we had that rule. There would be hundreds of applicants and a large portion of those would be willing to pay for the priviledge. It would make things worse.
The people getting the jobs would be foreigners from countries that have large GA industries such as Oz, USA and millitary pilots.
If this ever does come to Euroland expect to see 0-1500 hour P2F courses for £200,000+. They would probably be queing up to do it as well.