Why I love the recession!
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Let's look beyond aviation. How about all those students out there, spending their parent's money on years and years of University. I remember about 20 years back a lot of wet-behind-the-ears engineers, teachers etc driving taxi and frying burgers, because they couldn't get a job but had to pay back study loans.
What I do agree with, however is the problem, that many of the very young guys show some lack of maturity. That maturity, that usually comes with working your first job. If that first job is sitting in the r/h seat next to me, I'd rather have someone sitting there, who financially contributed to getting there.
What I do agree with, however is the problem, that many of the very young guys show some lack of maturity. That maturity, that usually comes with working your first job. If that first job is sitting in the r/h seat next to me, I'd rather have someone sitting there, who financially contributed to getting there.
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Great post Bealzebub. Hit the nail on the head. Parents aren't stupid and neither are the bank.
I'm off to drive my lorry now(on my days off from my normal job)...back to the normal job at the weekend.....
Have a good one folks.
2W2R
I'm off to drive my lorry now(on my days off from my normal job)...back to the normal job at the weekend.....
Have a good one folks.
2W2R
I Have Control
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A couple of us "mature" ones were comparing notes on cadets yesterday while operating back from the USA. We both felt that a fair number of the young ones who had made it onto jets with no turboprop or instructing apprenticeship were rather cocky. I sense that here from some people too, who seem unduly aggressive about their "right" to be young, inexperienced, and jet pilots.
Fact is, many of them are not much good.
Fact is, many of them are not much good.
Last edited by RoyHudd; 15th Oct 2010 at 06:29.
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Not to mention that 45 years of flying an aluminium tube around the skies trying not to upset the 1st class G+T's is deathly, deathly boring.
Get a real job first then go fly an airliner. They are dull.
Get a real job first then go fly an airliner. They are dull.
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Roy,
I am curious about who you fly for if you regularly come into contact with Cadets in an airline that operates transatlantic.
Is is BA?
I thought the SSPs were generally well received on the line?
I am curious about who you fly for if you regularly come into contact with Cadets in an airline that operates transatlantic.
Is is BA?
I thought the SSPs were generally well received on the line?
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And if it is BA, it wouldn't be completely inexperianced guys as cadets on the SSP, as with anyone joining BA would be fleet frozen for 5 years anyway. Which for an SSP would most definately be short haul!
And to the poster, jealousy and hatred are ugly emotions, sure to eat you up inside and sure to make you collapse of high blood pressure and heart problems way before your time, so just deal with it, learn to be happy for others, and get on with your own career. Although I hope never to have to sit in a flight deck for any amount of time with someone with your personality!!
And to the poster, jealousy and hatred are ugly emotions, sure to eat you up inside and sure to make you collapse of high blood pressure and heart problems way before your time, so just deal with it, learn to be happy for others, and get on with your own career. Although I hope never to have to sit in a flight deck for any amount of time with someone with your personality!!
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Recession, your post is tragic. I'm young, ambition is one day to get a PPL, CPL and later (
) ATPL then rise up the ladder and eventually get to the 'dizzy heights' of captain. One day 
Sometimes I see some older people (with much more experience in life, I hasten to add), almost condemning teenagers as a human subspecies. And that's when I think - 'haven't got a hope in hell'.
And then I see people such as yourself taking pleasure from the displeasure of others. And frankly, I find that disgusting and sad, that there are members of homo sapiens (although some would argue that people who do such things are not sapiens at all) who are nasty and vengeful enough to even experience such 'emotions', let alone go to such lengths as set up an account on PPRuNe and then vent their rather nasty musings on it.
You should think of the Staines disaster of 1972, where in part conflicts amongst long-standing captains with young upstart co-pilots indirectly caused the deaths of 118 innocent people.
The best I can do is think of you in your office job, proud member of a virtual airline, wasting your life away wishing you'd done something different and hoping that other people will be as unlucky as you.
) ATPL then rise up the ladder and eventually get to the 'dizzy heights' of captain. One day Sometimes I see some older people (with much more experience in life, I hasten to add), almost condemning teenagers as a human subspecies. And that's when I think - 'haven't got a hope in hell'.
And then I see people such as yourself taking pleasure from the displeasure of others. And frankly, I find that disgusting and sad, that there are members of homo sapiens (although some would argue that people who do such things are not sapiens at all) who are nasty and vengeful enough to even experience such 'emotions', let alone go to such lengths as set up an account on PPRuNe and then vent their rather nasty musings on it.
You should think of the Staines disaster of 1972, where in part conflicts amongst long-standing captains with young upstart co-pilots indirectly caused the deaths of 118 innocent people.
The best I can do is think of you in your office job, proud member of a virtual airline, wasting your life away wishing you'd done something different and hoping that other people will be as unlucky as you.
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He should also be reminded that not all rich people are spoiled brats. Many of my peers come from nouveau riche families, and yes, some of them are spoiled brats. Stereotypically, they would wear labelled clothes, drive Mercedes and live in Esher, where their fathers are off to London at 7AM. But not all. 
Many of my peers are also comparitively well off. However, many of us live in the middle of nowhere, and see little point in 50 inch televisions
and other flash items coming from department stores in Knightsbridge. My family are comparitively well off, and our daily run-around is a 21 year old German car. My father makes a habit of wearing tracksuit bottoms with holes in unmentionable places - this is because we (and I talk on behalf of my peers here) do not feel the need to show wealth. In turn, we don't expect many things that others would. My house doesn't have heating. SO WHAT? I just don more layers.
My points is that the world isn't made of new money, not everyone less that 20 are spoiled brats so get some perspective and be less ignorant. It is all to easy to be pessimistic, but you'll be wrong.
Many of my peers are also comparitively well off. However, many of us live in the middle of nowhere, and see little point in 50 inch televisions
and other flash items coming from department stores in Knightsbridge. My family are comparitively well off, and our daily run-around is a 21 year old German car. My father makes a habit of wearing tracksuit bottoms with holes in unmentionable places - this is because we (and I talk on behalf of my peers here) do not feel the need to show wealth. In turn, we don't expect many things that others would. My house doesn't have heating. SO WHAT? I just don more layers.My points is that the world isn't made of new money, not everyone less that 20 are spoiled brats so get some perspective and be less ignorant. It is all to easy to be pessimistic, but you'll be wrong.
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Devaluing the role of a pilot
Personally I feel Recession's post is somewhat bitter, but there are parts of what he said that strike a bell with me. I'm following the advice of some long time posters on Pprune and gradualy training modularly from my ow savings, job as a modest loan towards the end of my training should I need to pay for my own type rating (Please don't hit me for saying that !!). It strikes me that all this remortgaging of houses and masses of easy credit has probably totally flooded the market with low hours pilots over recent years, resulting in Ts and Cs which apart from flight training being enjoyable and flying being a good job, would barely seem worth training for (I mean come on, 80 k to Oxford to potentially end up on the dole or working as a contractor and even then only if you stump up another 25k for a type rating... sure as hell wouldn't wanna bet my parents house on that... i'd go and find something else to do for a few years until things improved). However, if indeed the recession does dramatically reduce the numbers training via the integrated route, i'm all for it. It will hopefully reduce supply and help to drive Ts and Cs backup, as well as result in more openings in the future. If this does happen it would also signal a return to people having to work hard and strive for their position in the front of a jet, as opposed to just bashing out 100k and having it all laid out in front of you. This is my perspective on it anyway... As an after thought... I wonder how many of the integrated lot would have still had the patience to train if they thought from the outset that it was going to take 3 - 7 years? Probably far fewer i'm guessing. Something which will hopefully mean better times around the corner for those who really do love aviation and who are willing to go the distance no matter what it might take.
Grouse
Grouse
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MFF...either of my questioners understand what that is all about?....nothing to do with BA in my case. Cadets are all over the place.
Incidentally, Recession is not wrong IMHO.
Incidentally, Recession is not wrong IMHO.
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All those under 25's who think Recession is talking nonsense (I'm not THAT much older myself), I would like you all to post on PPruNe in 5 years time telling us a.) if you have a job and if not, b.) what you feel was the biggest barrier to you getting a job. 9/10 of you will put it down to availability of cash.
Wannabes have given the airlines/FTOs the opportunity to screw us with integrated training so future generations would realise that integrated / airline mentored training (costing double the cost of Modular) is the best way to stand a chance of employment. Now with increasing competition even amongst the integrated/airline mentored students, it's only a matter of time before the airlines/FTOs will have invented a new category of training that only the richest of the rich could afford. That's all it's about, MONEY.
At the heart of Recession's message is total disgust at the lack of FAIR AND EQUAL assessment opportunities for pilots like him (self sponsored, trained at own pace with minimal debt). Airline's would much rather take on extremely young and mostly naive (If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it!) guys who are up to their eyeballs in debt. The latter category is bound to accept any deal offered on the table due to two reasons: 1.) Probably never earned a decent wage anyway and therfore no experience to say no!, 2.) to help their debt situation wheras a 30 yo with a mortgage and a couple of kids COULD NOT (though probably would given the current bad spell). Hence why the likes of BA, BMI, EZ and other airlines in bed with CTC would rather not hire human beings living an ordinary life and having normal everyday needs (such as zero desire for debt!)
Flying is not everything.
Wannabes have given the airlines/FTOs the opportunity to screw us with integrated training so future generations would realise that integrated / airline mentored training (costing double the cost of Modular) is the best way to stand a chance of employment. Now with increasing competition even amongst the integrated/airline mentored students, it's only a matter of time before the airlines/FTOs will have invented a new category of training that only the richest of the rich could afford. That's all it's about, MONEY.
At the heart of Recession's message is total disgust at the lack of FAIR AND EQUAL assessment opportunities for pilots like him (self sponsored, trained at own pace with minimal debt). Airline's would much rather take on extremely young and mostly naive (If the shoe don't fit, don't wear it!) guys who are up to their eyeballs in debt. The latter category is bound to accept any deal offered on the table due to two reasons: 1.) Probably never earned a decent wage anyway and therfore no experience to say no!, 2.) to help their debt situation wheras a 30 yo with a mortgage and a couple of kids COULD NOT (though probably would given the current bad spell). Hence why the likes of BA, BMI, EZ and other airlines in bed with CTC would rather not hire human beings living an ordinary life and having normal everyday needs (such as zero desire for debt!)
Flying is not everything.
Last edited by Superpilot; 22nd Oct 2010 at 15:54.
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I will second RoyHudd's post, our airline has had its fingers burnt on more than one occasion, they were not always cocky, some were little 
though. They tended to need more hours line training than the more experienced new starts, some never passed line training and some are now history, don't get me started on the P2F mob!
though. They tended to need more hours line training than the more experienced new starts, some never passed line training and some are now history, don't get me started on the P2F mob!
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The message is there....read between the lines.....
Many of you don't like the tone of recession's post. Neither do I. For one I wouldn't wish bankruptcy on anyone’s parents. I'm a parent myself and until you actually become one, you simply will never quite understand what it means be one and what it actually entails. You will do you damndest to support your child; you want them to succeed and you never want anyone to say that they aren't good enough or that they can't achieve something. However there is always a point where parents should let go of the reigns. It’s a big wide world out there and their siblings require exposure and need to make their own mistakes. It will hopefully mould them into being responsible adults.
However the underlying issues are there to see in recession's post
1. There are too many wannabees with no life experience at all. They are still very much attached to the support system of their parents. They have no financial understanding because they have never been required to show any. Therefore shelling out £100,000 of someone else’s money has no real meaning. Repayment plans, remorgaging, APR, recession...huuh
?
2. If you have no life experience then how can you possibly understand how organisations operate? An effective sales pitch with lots of glossy images of cadets in uniforms, manipulated employment stats and shiny aeroplanes on display will appear like the be all and end all to the naive. Exactly how it is intended to! It is of no surprise that the majority of those attending the "top schools" are in their very early twenties. They believe in 100K or more = Integrated course = jet job with 200hrs or less. Because that’s what they are told. The airlines are glad to buy into this concept because it helps control their cost base. People fume at the likes of EZY and FR only recruiting cadets to sit in the RHS. Yes, they are missing out on a wealth of experience by doing so. Yes they have shot the 'self improver' path of pieces as a result (todays 21 year old integrated bod wouldn't even know what that was; largely because their respective FTO doesn't promote it) HOWEVER remember, these recruitment policies are rolled out by managers, not chief pilots or heads of training.
3. Again no life experience will lead you to thinking that current contracts along with the working terms and conditions of those recruiting are the norm. They probably bare no consequence whatsoever, because the main goal in all of this is to program a FMC and engage the A/P at 1000' AGL (OK I'm being facetious - or am I?
And after all you have no financial understanding, no financial responsibilities and no experience of the working world, management practice or organisational culture. Now are you wondering why airlines love 21 year old cadets? (by the way, I am in no way implying that current T&Cs are solely to blame on cadets shelling out on integrated courses and SSTRs. It goes much deeper!)
These points just scratch the surface. A few here have picked up on them. I reckon a post like this should be made a sticky. WANABEES - UNDERSTAND THIS, or something along the lines. Probably won't make a difference though, but in full view for all everyone to consider, overprotective parents and overdependent offsprings alike.
However the underlying issues are there to see in recession's post
1. There are too many wannabees with no life experience at all. They are still very much attached to the support system of their parents. They have no financial understanding because they have never been required to show any. Therefore shelling out £100,000 of someone else’s money has no real meaning. Repayment plans, remorgaging, APR, recession...huuh
? 2. If you have no life experience then how can you possibly understand how organisations operate? An effective sales pitch with lots of glossy images of cadets in uniforms, manipulated employment stats and shiny aeroplanes on display will appear like the be all and end all to the naive. Exactly how it is intended to! It is of no surprise that the majority of those attending the "top schools" are in their very early twenties. They believe in 100K or more = Integrated course = jet job with 200hrs or less. Because that’s what they are told. The airlines are glad to buy into this concept because it helps control their cost base. People fume at the likes of EZY and FR only recruiting cadets to sit in the RHS. Yes, they are missing out on a wealth of experience by doing so. Yes they have shot the 'self improver' path of pieces as a result (todays 21 year old integrated bod wouldn't even know what that was; largely because their respective FTO doesn't promote it) HOWEVER remember, these recruitment policies are rolled out by managers, not chief pilots or heads of training.
3. Again no life experience will lead you to thinking that current contracts along with the working terms and conditions of those recruiting are the norm. They probably bare no consequence whatsoever, because the main goal in all of this is to program a FMC and engage the A/P at 1000' AGL (OK I'm being facetious - or am I?
And after all you have no financial understanding, no financial responsibilities and no experience of the working world, management practice or organisational culture. Now are you wondering why airlines love 21 year old cadets? (by the way, I am in no way implying that current T&Cs are solely to blame on cadets shelling out on integrated courses and SSTRs. It goes much deeper!)These points just scratch the surface. A few here have picked up on them. I reckon a post like this should be made a sticky. WANABEES - UNDERSTAND THIS, or something along the lines. Probably won't make a difference though, but in full view for all everyone to consider, overprotective parents and overdependent offsprings alike.
Terrible post by Recession. Probably not genuine either to be honest.
I've had my licence 2.5 years now. currently 23yrs old. Parents put the house down as a guarantor. They haven't give me a penny. Nor have i asked for one. Nor would they be able to give me any money as they aren't rich!
I knew when i started an integrated course that i probably wouldn't get a job straight away, and here i am 2.5 years later!
To be honest, i'm not too bothered. I've worked my arse off post training. 4 days a week and every friday/sat/sunday night without fail. the 5 loans i have are coming down, and am managing to get 2 nice long haul holidays per year, along with 4hrs a month GA flying
Not all people who have their parents help, necessarily have 'their' money
I haven't got any chance of getting more loans etc until my debt is reduced. Saying that, what do i need more money for? I'm certianly not going to give O'Leary any of it to fly his 737's.
The reason i'm not bothered too much about having a job is because i'm still only 23. Loans will be paid in 4 years, and hopefully the market will be a bit better.
I've had my licence 2.5 years now. currently 23yrs old. Parents put the house down as a guarantor. They haven't give me a penny. Nor have i asked for one. Nor would they be able to give me any money as they aren't rich!
I knew when i started an integrated course that i probably wouldn't get a job straight away, and here i am 2.5 years later!
To be honest, i'm not too bothered. I've worked my arse off post training. 4 days a week and every friday/sat/sunday night without fail. the 5 loans i have are coming down, and am managing to get 2 nice long haul holidays per year, along with 4hrs a month GA flying
Not all people who have their parents help, necessarily have 'their' money
I haven't got any chance of getting more loans etc until my debt is reduced. Saying that, what do i need more money for? I'm certianly not going to give O'Leary any of it to fly his 737's.
The reason i'm not bothered too much about having a job is because i'm still only 23. Loans will be paid in 4 years, and hopefully the market will be a bit better.
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And it will be 6.5 years since you qualified! Airlines will still be hiring fresh cadets by preference and with be continuing to impose heavy burdens. There will be no shortage of new wanabees and there will be plenty with little concept of reality and access to other peoples money. I can't not sympathise with what you have and will continue to face and I admire your current resolve. However you face an uphill struggle in this harsh environment. I really wish it were otherwise, however I just can't see it.