Fed up with this career
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Fed up with this career
Im totally fed up with this as a career. Ive got over 3500tt and am currently flying a small- medium sized biz jet and getting paid peanuts despite having some command time. I ve tried to apply to airlines before with no success. All they seem to be bothered about is recruiting a 20 year old cadet with 200 hours to sit in the RHS on a 6 month contract and for a large sum of money from daddy's wallet. 
I cant apply for captain positions as I dont have any experience flying for an airline or JAR25 aeroplanes. Despite being only 34 with jet experience/ glass cockit time/ highly capable of making cups of coffee that I feel im already on the scrap heap and my present job (that doesnt even pay my morgage) is about to go tits up. Why when we've put all this into a career there is so much lacking?
I cant apply for captain positions as I dont have any experience flying for an airline or JAR25 aeroplanes. Despite being only 34 with jet experience/ glass cockit time/ highly capable of making cups of coffee that I feel im already on the scrap heap and my present job (that doesnt even pay my morgage) is about to go tits up. Why when we've put all this into a career there is so much lacking?
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I am fed up hearing about people like you complaining. If you and other pilots, who got all for "free", had been better to look after your T & C's, then there would not have been this situation.
What a boring topic, somebody stop the troll!
What a boring topic, somebody stop the troll!
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Well if it makes you feel any better ... I'm totally fed up with this career as well, and I've got 7000TT and half of that on long haul heavy jets ... had my little 2 year old boy crying down the skype at me again this morning because he wants daddy to give him a cuddle and can't understand why I'm away, and only talking to him through the computer screen AGAIN for the rest of the week.
Honestly guys aviation is trashed from one end of this world to the other. The glory days of the big European flag carriers are over, nobody flies with them short haul any more thanks to Ryan and Easy, and they're getting their asses kicked by the arab airlines on most of their long haul routes. I thought about going back to my old job (Easyjet) but they're only taking P2F guys and contract pilots on pathetic T&C's, and the latest is they're giving "seasonal commands" to their senior FO's so they can turf out all the contractors in the winter
Out here in the sandpit you can still make money but by god you work hard for it, the rostering is so horrific and it's such a hell of a lifestyle especially for your family that very few people (except those from third world countries) are prepared to stay here and tough it out long enough to call it a "career" any more.
Asia is probably the best bet now, but just about all the growth there will also come in the low cost and contract-pilot markets, the historically great expat airlines like Cathay and Singapore are a shadow of their former selves when it comes to careers for non-nationals.
I'm leaving the sandpit in the next few weeks for a contract agency job in the far east and unless something miraculous happens in terms of half decent airline jobs in my home country (down under) I plan to be out of this rotten profession altogether before my kids start school, I'll seriously re train and go work in IT, or any kind of job that lets me leave my desk at 5 pm and go home (considering that half this forum is IT people who want to be airline pilots, that should bring a smirk to a few faces).
Honestly guys aviation is trashed from one end of this world to the other. The glory days of the big European flag carriers are over, nobody flies with them short haul any more thanks to Ryan and Easy, and they're getting their asses kicked by the arab airlines on most of their long haul routes. I thought about going back to my old job (Easyjet) but they're only taking P2F guys and contract pilots on pathetic T&C's, and the latest is they're giving "seasonal commands" to their senior FO's so they can turf out all the contractors in the winter
Out here in the sandpit you can still make money but by god you work hard for it, the rostering is so horrific and it's such a hell of a lifestyle especially for your family that very few people (except those from third world countries) are prepared to stay here and tough it out long enough to call it a "career" any more.
Asia is probably the best bet now, but just about all the growth there will also come in the low cost and contract-pilot markets, the historically great expat airlines like Cathay and Singapore are a shadow of their former selves when it comes to careers for non-nationals.
I'm leaving the sandpit in the next few weeks for a contract agency job in the far east and unless something miraculous happens in terms of half decent airline jobs in my home country (down under) I plan to be out of this rotten profession altogether before my kids start school, I'll seriously re train and go work in IT, or any kind of job that lets me leave my desk at 5 pm and go home (considering that half this forum is IT people who want to be airline pilots, that should bring a smirk to a few faces).
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And what makes you think he or me or anyone else got anything for free magictiger ... if theres one thing I've learned from 18 years in this industry it's that trying to stop the hordes of wannabes these days who want to prostitute themselves to get on jets, is like the story of the little dutch boy trying to stop the leaks in the dike with his fingers, every time you try to close one hole another one just opens up, for muppets like you to keep on flowing through
If you don't want to hear experienced pilots telling it like it is then feel free to go elsewhere, but I think in any case that you, not him, is the troll
If you don't want to hear experienced pilots telling it like it is then feel free to go elsewhere, but I think in any case that you, not him, is the troll
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Magictiger - That's a bit harsh. At no point reading cabinready's post did I get the impression that he got anything for free. He may well have paid for every rating himself, with money he earned from hard graft. And flying biz-jets as an FO, he may well never have been in a strong enough position to put his foot down and fight for better terms and conditions.
Maybe there should be two PPRUNEs, one for people with rose tinted glasses who live in a world where the sun always shines and there are jobs for all. The other should be for the doom and gloom merchants.
Then if you don't wish to read negative posts from people with experience then you won't have to
(written before but posted after the previous post. True evidence that great minds think alike!!)
Maybe there should be two PPRUNEs, one for people with rose tinted glasses who live in a world where the sun always shines and there are jobs for all. The other should be for the doom and gloom merchants.
Then if you don't wish to read negative posts from people with experience then you won't have to
(written before but posted after the previous post. True evidence that great minds think alike!!)
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Im sorry but im not a troll. I just feel frustrated with the career that ive chosen and have always wanted to do. I feel quite helpless at times because I feel trapped. Ive paid huge sums of money to do this career and trained hard; ending up flying a modern biz jet. However, the TCs dont reflect this and the fact that my roster is non existant, Im practically on call 24-7 really rubs the issue in, the wife expects that she and the family comes first (rightly so) although very difficult at times. An office admin guy earns more than I do and hes only working 9 to 5 monday to friday; I on the other hand regularly work 16 hour days but only fly for a couple of those hours. I would like to work for an airline however I seem to be trapped between the 2 systems, im not a 20 year old cadet with only 200hours nor am I a seasoned airline pilot flying JAR25 aeroplanes. Any suggestions folks? Or should I just jack the whole thing in and work for a company that produces office stationary or toilet paper and enjoy my "structured" time off with the family?
Its just so difficult to walk away from a career that youve put everything into not just the financial aspects. I dont want to be trapped like this when im 50.
Its just so difficult to walk away from a career that youve put everything into not just the financial aspects. I dont want to be trapped like this when im 50.
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Chin up cabinready, you're in a lot better position than a lot of your compatriots - 3500 TT with some glass jet and 34 years old is not actually a bad place to be ... twasn't that long ago that netjets europe was hoovering up guys in exactly your position, and that is a GREAT job - and my mates in that company tell me that they're working hard again all of a sudden, all those Russians have gotten over the financial crisis and they're splashing it around on fractional citations just like the good old days 
The bizjet world feels the highs and lows of the global economy a lot more than we airline plebs, but good times will surely roll round again for you guys soon. You're lucky in that most millionaires don't actually want to get involved in the business of selling P2F and charging £35 grand for a £10 grand rating and generally screwing the 200-hour superstars, they actually value and reward good people with brains and experience sitting in their driver's seats and you clearly have some of both. Stick it out and stay current and keep networking, when you least expect it you'll suddenly win the job lottery
The bizjet world feels the highs and lows of the global economy a lot more than we airline plebs, but good times will surely roll round again for you guys soon. You're lucky in that most millionaires don't actually want to get involved in the business of selling P2F and charging £35 grand for a £10 grand rating and generally screwing the 200-hour superstars, they actually value and reward good people with brains and experience sitting in their driver's seats and you clearly have some of both. Stick it out and stay current and keep networking, when you least expect it you'll suddenly win the job lottery
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Was not trying to be harsh! cabinready with first post, and bemoaning the P2F pilots, or the pilots who have to pay for their TR to get a job, quite a few of them on these forums.
The established generation did get their TR's and fairly good T & C's when they joined the airlines, or got their break into the industry.
However the situation today has become desperate for wannabes, who also invest thousands in CPL/ME/IR/MCC + + hours!
You had pilots example in SAS, who refused to retire when they reached they planned retirement age, meaning younger pilots lost their jobs in the company. They had top salaries and even greater pensions, nothing compared to what anyone today will be able to get.
Then you have the pilot's who allowed the P2F to happen, it was ok for the ones in their safe jobs already, because it did not concern them, or did it? Maybe their safe job, no longer so safe because of the recession and hard times, suddenly pilots with plenty of TT, and even time on type, but can't get a job as FO anymore, because the airlines now rather want a wannabe, low hours, low experience and willing to pay them 28.000 Euros for TR, and some even pay for line training.
Now is there any reason that pilots unions could not have said NO, we will not accept this P2F pilots, because this will undermine our career progression, and possible future employment chances!
I would today consider a pilot lucky if he only gets bonded for training and TR, so yes the established generation did get something for free, that todays wannabes probably never will get.
Todays situation is, overpay for your TR, get peanuts paid, and maybe unemployed next month!
Some of us might NEVER get a job, even after investing thousands, thats the chance we take.
But I guess the pilots unions did not care to much about protection the future pilots T & C's. I still feel that somehow the P2F could have been limited.
My reaction for the troll, is that there are so many of these threads, complaining about P2F, but fact is nobody ever did anything about it when they could have, now it is to late, unless it proves to be a security/safety risk!
The established generation did get their TR's and fairly good T & C's when they joined the airlines, or got their break into the industry.
However the situation today has become desperate for wannabes, who also invest thousands in CPL/ME/IR/MCC + + hours!
You had pilots example in SAS, who refused to retire when they reached they planned retirement age, meaning younger pilots lost their jobs in the company. They had top salaries and even greater pensions, nothing compared to what anyone today will be able to get.
Then you have the pilot's who allowed the P2F to happen, it was ok for the ones in their safe jobs already, because it did not concern them, or did it? Maybe their safe job, no longer so safe because of the recession and hard times, suddenly pilots with plenty of TT, and even time on type, but can't get a job as FO anymore, because the airlines now rather want a wannabe, low hours, low experience and willing to pay them 28.000 Euros for TR, and some even pay for line training.
Now is there any reason that pilots unions could not have said NO, we will not accept this P2F pilots, because this will undermine our career progression, and possible future employment chances!
I would today consider a pilot lucky if he only gets bonded for training and TR, so yes the established generation did get something for free, that todays wannabes probably never will get.
Todays situation is, overpay for your TR, get peanuts paid, and maybe unemployed next month!
Some of us might NEVER get a job, even after investing thousands, thats the chance we take.
But I guess the pilots unions did not care to much about protection the future pilots T & C's. I still feel that somehow the P2F could have been limited.
My reaction for the troll, is that there are so many of these threads, complaining about P2F, but fact is nobody ever did anything about it when they could have, now it is to late, unless it proves to be a security/safety risk!
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cabinready
As someone who has recently moved from airline to corporate, I can assure you that you are sitting on the better side of the fence. If I were you then I would try and get into a better corporate job than what you are in at the moment rather than make the move to the airline world.
My roster is perhaps less predictable than it would be in an airline with a fixed roster pattern, yet I get far more time at home than any airline could ever offer and the big trump card for me is that I am never fatigued whilst at home which I really value a lot.
Multi sector days and 800-900 hours a year has never been so unappealing!
As someone who has recently moved from airline to corporate, I can assure you that you are sitting on the better side of the fence. If I were you then I would try and get into a better corporate job than what you are in at the moment rather than make the move to the airline world.
My roster is perhaps less predictable than it would be in an airline with a fixed roster pattern, yet I get far more time at home than any airline could ever offer and the big trump card for me is that I am never fatigued whilst at home which I really value a lot.
Multi sector days and 800-900 hours a year has never been so unappealing!
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Thanks MG. If I fly an airliner I can then decide which I prefer in terms of lifestyle. I think this actual job I have is particularly bad for lifestyle and its likely to go bottoms up in the next year so Im trying to escape. I also wondered that by getting time on JAR25 aeroplanes I could switch easily from airline back to corporate or vice versa in the event of another recession in 10 years time; that is if im still a pilot. I would therefore have experienced most sides of this industry. Granted I probably agree with you that this type of flying is better but that is providing you are earning more than a basic office worker and know roughly your movements for the next week ahead.
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ei-flyer -
I am not moaning over the situation. I am not happy with the way things are, so no need for personal attack with regards to my experience level. (however not a problem, low houred CPL)
Cabinready - is clearly frustrated with his choice of career, however he does still have a career in aviation. I can not know the reasons why he has not been offered other employment with his experience, maybe he has been unlucky with his choices.
I have a friend of mine FAA licensed, also with more than 3500 hours TT, and also not made it into any of the airlines.
I have another friend who had nearly 4000 hours, majority on SEP, and few hundred on MEP, he was 43 and paid for his own TR, and got himself a job in the desert flying a 737. (Dubai/Afghanistan)
He told me if they gave him a FO with 200 hours he would refuse to fly. Now I know it is not always that simple, we all have bills to pay.
Cabinready - was angry at the "rich kids", and I agree this can be frustrating times. He also said he could hardly make things go around, does he believe some of the Airlines are better when he starts there?
All we can do is do our best, I have been lucky as I have had several other careers, and I have career I can fall back on if things goes from bad to worse!
I have to admit I have been on the management side rather then the employment side, and I am not sure how I will react if I get treated like dirt as an employer, as I have been self-employed and ran several different business since I was 19.
It does seems if pilots had been stronger with their management, these negative changes could have been limited. However if the management comes and tells their pilots, either accept P2F schemes at our airline, or our airline will not be able to exist or you will need to take a large pay cut, of course we would all comply with management, end of the day, they are the ones paying our salaries/contracts.
I think the root of the problem is a combination of several factors, slow recruitment at the moment, people have invested thousand of pounds, and there are no jobs out there. Pilots are sitting tight in their seats, afraid that the recession might hit they airline, scare politics by management, we have to save in every corner - and pilots have to accept any condition directed by management, because they fear what would happen if management might be right.
Lufthansa pilots did take a stand, why does nobody else care enough?
I am not moaning over the situation. I am not happy with the way things are, so no need for personal attack with regards to my experience level. (however not a problem, low houred CPL)
Cabinready - is clearly frustrated with his choice of career, however he does still have a career in aviation. I can not know the reasons why he has not been offered other employment with his experience, maybe he has been unlucky with his choices.
I have a friend of mine FAA licensed, also with more than 3500 hours TT, and also not made it into any of the airlines.
I have another friend who had nearly 4000 hours, majority on SEP, and few hundred on MEP, he was 43 and paid for his own TR, and got himself a job in the desert flying a 737. (Dubai/Afghanistan)
He told me if they gave him a FO with 200 hours he would refuse to fly. Now I know it is not always that simple, we all have bills to pay.
Cabinready - was angry at the "rich kids", and I agree this can be frustrating times. He also said he could hardly make things go around, does he believe some of the Airlines are better when he starts there?
All we can do is do our best, I have been lucky as I have had several other careers, and I have career I can fall back on if things goes from bad to worse!
I have to admit I have been on the management side rather then the employment side, and I am not sure how I will react if I get treated like dirt as an employer, as I have been self-employed and ran several different business since I was 19.
It does seems if pilots had been stronger with their management, these negative changes could have been limited. However if the management comes and tells their pilots, either accept P2F schemes at our airline, or our airline will not be able to exist or you will need to take a large pay cut, of course we would all comply with management, end of the day, they are the ones paying our salaries/contracts.
I think the root of the problem is a combination of several factors, slow recruitment at the moment, people have invested thousand of pounds, and there are no jobs out there. Pilots are sitting tight in their seats, afraid that the recession might hit they airline, scare politics by management, we have to save in every corner - and pilots have to accept any condition directed by management, because they fear what would happen if management might be right.
Lufthansa pilots did take a stand, why does nobody else care enough?
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MagicTiger,
No such personal attack intended, it was just a question.
Thank you for the answer - knowing one's experience allows people to conclude for themselves the validity of one's opinions.
No such personal attack intended, it was just a question.
Thank you for the answer - knowing one's experience allows people to conclude for themselves the validity of one's opinions.
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cabinready:
I totally understand your frustration! I have been in the same boat. 4000TT, 2900 Jet, Typed in B744 and a 3 other biz jets. I don't have 300 hours in the B744, so that excludes many of the jobs on Parc, Rishworth etc. I have not found a job since late Spring of 2008. I also have FAA and JAA and right to work in the EU and USA. Doesn't matter.
Airlines today look at experience as a negative...i.e. you are not a money making device for their operation. A new cadet does provide income for the airline. The only other option is Direct entry Captain. But, you require time in the exact type of aircraft that the airline is operating. So 20,000 hours in A320 does very little if you are after the 737NG job.
I recently cashed in my chips and got out of the industry. Moved into another industry (this was not easy...got lucky in that the guy interviewing me was another former Captain who got fed up w/ the flying "career" as well, i.e. he knew where I was coming from.)
After deregulation in the US, this profession slowly went to the dogs. After the creation of RYR and EZ's "become a really cool pilot" schemes...the industry went to the dogs in Europe.
Yes, this job is cyclical and better days will be here again, but bad days will follow the good days again. What do you do if you are in your 50s and made redundant? What if your particular time in a particular jet is not in the jet the hiring company operates? You have built up your CV...for what? In every other industry, a built-up CV is a positive and you can use that experience to negotiate terms and conditions in your favour. Not in aviation. You will have to start at the bottom with a seniority number at a salary that won't pay your bills.
If you can find that pilot dream job, then more power to ya. I would be jealous..seriously. For me, enough was enough and I made the move. I now have a steady salary and learning skills that can be easily transferable to future jobs that are more abundant than pilot jobs.
You need to do an honest evaluation of your position w/ friends and family. You must steer your own ship.
Good luck!
I totally understand your frustration! I have been in the same boat. 4000TT, 2900 Jet, Typed in B744 and a 3 other biz jets. I don't have 300 hours in the B744, so that excludes many of the jobs on Parc, Rishworth etc. I have not found a job since late Spring of 2008. I also have FAA and JAA and right to work in the EU and USA. Doesn't matter.
Airlines today look at experience as a negative...i.e. you are not a money making device for their operation. A new cadet does provide income for the airline. The only other option is Direct entry Captain. But, you require time in the exact type of aircraft that the airline is operating. So 20,000 hours in A320 does very little if you are after the 737NG job.
I recently cashed in my chips and got out of the industry. Moved into another industry (this was not easy...got lucky in that the guy interviewing me was another former Captain who got fed up w/ the flying "career" as well, i.e. he knew where I was coming from.)
After deregulation in the US, this profession slowly went to the dogs. After the creation of RYR and EZ's "become a really cool pilot" schemes...the industry went to the dogs in Europe.
Yes, this job is cyclical and better days will be here again, but bad days will follow the good days again. What do you do if you are in your 50s and made redundant? What if your particular time in a particular jet is not in the jet the hiring company operates? You have built up your CV...for what? In every other industry, a built-up CV is a positive and you can use that experience to negotiate terms and conditions in your favour. Not in aviation. You will have to start at the bottom with a seniority number at a salary that won't pay your bills.
If you can find that pilot dream job, then more power to ya. I would be jealous..seriously. For me, enough was enough and I made the move. I now have a steady salary and learning skills that can be easily transferable to future jobs that are more abundant than pilot jobs.
You need to do an honest evaluation of your position w/ friends and family. You must steer your own ship.
Good luck!
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Magictiger - I understand your frustration but I think you over estimate the power of the established pilots to do anything about it. The whole buy-a-type-rating thing which led on to P2F first reared its ugly head in Ryanair and a whole bunch of smaller low-cost airlines around Europe, some of which are no longer with us like Sky Europe.
Now I'm sure you're aware of the union situation at Ryanair, the captains there have enough of a fight on their hands to stop O'leary cutting their own salaries in half year after year after year, without getting mixed up in cadet politics. And if you are an out-of-work captain who's just been offered a job with a dodgy start up lo-cost airline, will you refuse it because you don't like the contract that's on offer to the new FO's?
At the end of the day it's about SUPPLY and DEMAND and the ability of the management to sell an outrageously bad deal to a bunch of young people who are, at the end of the day, 99% of them are chasing their dream they've had since they were kids - and want that dream so badly they will do just about anything to get it. If they want it badly enough ... and the management want to give it them, it's very hard for the established pilots to stop the two getting together
Now I'm sure you're aware of the union situation at Ryanair, the captains there have enough of a fight on their hands to stop O'leary cutting their own salaries in half year after year after year, without getting mixed up in cadet politics. And if you are an out-of-work captain who's just been offered a job with a dodgy start up lo-cost airline, will you refuse it because you don't like the contract that's on offer to the new FO's?
At the end of the day it's about SUPPLY and DEMAND and the ability of the management to sell an outrageously bad deal to a bunch of young people who are, at the end of the day, 99% of them are chasing their dream they've had since they were kids - and want that dream so badly they will do just about anything to get it. If they want it badly enough ... and the management want to give it them, it's very hard for the established pilots to stop the two getting together
Educated Hillbilly
I will say one thing, I was laid off from my turbo prop job back in 2008, no I didn't enjoy it that much, lot of time down route, low basic salary, a roster that changed every five minutes. However having been stuck in a design office since leaving flying I can now say I actually miss flying for a living and if you ask me where I want to spend the next 30 years, well down route in a hotel is prefereable to 9-5 in the Office.
You all seem to think that there are some miracle jobs out there that are better; very few jobs are enjoyable, but I assure you no matter how bad you thing your flying job is, it beats been stuck in an Office.
I do currently earn now more than double what I use to as an tp first officer, however if you ask me if am happy then the answer is no; after two years away from flying, then I am considering every option to get back into it.
You all seem to think that there are some miracle jobs out there that are better; very few jobs are enjoyable, but I assure you no matter how bad you thing your flying job is, it beats been stuck in an Office.
I do currently earn now more than double what I use to as an tp first officer, however if you ask me if am happy then the answer is no; after two years away from flying, then I am considering every option to get back into it.
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You could go in a third world country and talk to children used to make manual works about your problems. I would pay to watch you while you explain you are paid peanuts to fly a jet. I think they would not sleep during the night. I am sure they will be really simpatethic about your poor life and they will give their 4 $ months salary to cheer you up.
Old boring staff. Whatever I do makes me dream about flying... There is not such a thing like a cockpit sight... bla,bla,bla.
Sometime I think O'Leary is right. Sometime I believe he won. We are really a group of sadic, mindless and obsessed people. A kind of Tiger Woods but instead of sex, we are obsessed about flying. Get a life people, flying is nice but just inside a certain limits otherwise if you think so who could blame those 200 hrs prostitutes ? They are doing whatever to fly, as well as you. Both of you are the end on the same obsessive page.
I do currently earn now more than double what I use to as an tp first officer, however if you ask me if am happy then the answer is no, after two years away from flying I am considering every option to get back into it.
Sometime I think O'Leary is right. Sometime I believe he won. We are really a group of sadic, mindless and obsessed people. A kind of Tiger Woods but instead of sex, we are obsessed about flying. Get a life people, flying is nice but just inside a certain limits otherwise if you think so who could blame those 200 hrs prostitutes ? They are doing whatever to fly, as well as you. Both of you are the end on the same obsessive page.
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At least I know Im not on my own with all this. Sadly the low cost carriers have ruined the job market. Unless you are a 20 year old with daddys money; willing to work for nothing on a 6 month seasonal contract it appears to me that it is very difficult to get any kind of job in the RHS of an airliner. Ironically the application forms preach on about professionalism, dedication etc etc, very emotive words although their practices are anything but.
The time of one serving his time as a flying instructor, piston twin air taxi pilot, turbo prop FO and then jet Sky God have gone it would appear. Instead the airlines would rather employ a 200 hour wonder, practically making your modern airliner a single pilot operation. I can only welcome whats happening in the US with regards to flight time although their system has always been superior.
Sometimes I wish I could cash my chips in too, although I do occasionally feel lucky to witness a sunrise at FL390 or to see the whole of London lit up below. However lifes practicalities often cause me to see sense- how am I going to pay the morgage, why have the school drop outs driving a better car, live in a bigger house and have a far more rounded structured life with hardly no effort on their part etc.
The time of one serving his time as a flying instructor, piston twin air taxi pilot, turbo prop FO and then jet Sky God have gone it would appear. Instead the airlines would rather employ a 200 hour wonder, practically making your modern airliner a single pilot operation. I can only welcome whats happening in the US with regards to flight time although their system has always been superior.
Sometimes I wish I could cash my chips in too, although I do occasionally feel lucky to witness a sunrise at FL390 or to see the whole of London lit up below. However lifes practicalities often cause me to see sense- how am I going to pay the morgage, why have the school drop outs driving a better car, live in a bigger house and have a far more rounded structured life with hardly no effort on their part etc.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Right on the money
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No offence silvercare..
But for that comment...get a life..!!
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Old boring staff. Whatever I do makes me dream about flying... There is not such a thing like a cockpit sight... bla,bla,bla.