The next pilot strong pilot hiring cycle - independent study?
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I keep reading the odd post by people saying they have low hours and been to lots of interviews and been offered lots of jobs. Yet no-one says a) which airlines b) why they haven't taken the job or c) if its a pay to fly scheme or full salary.
This forum is to help and share information about recruitment - so tell us, who are these airlines that are offering jobs to pilots with 600hrs TT??
Its just I don't know of any - I work for a UK airline and we have just made redundancies - I know the likes of Ryanair are probably still recruiting those who want to pay to work, but that is because part of their profit comes from those guys.
This forum is to help and share information about recruitment - so tell us, who are these airlines that are offering jobs to pilots with 600hrs TT??
Its just I don't know of any - I work for a UK airline and we have just made redundancies - I know the likes of Ryanair are probably still recruiting those who want to pay to work, but that is because part of their profit comes from those guys.
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At the moment there are a few jobs for low hour pilots advertised. A quick scan located these possibilities worthy of further investigation.
Olympic Air - Employment Opportunities
Flight crew - Page 3
airberlin.com - Cockpit
Vacancies
CARPATAIR - First Officer - Quality and Safety, Our Fleet, Wet Lease Services
FlyLal are apparently hiring
BTW, I wouldn't class Ryanair as pay to fly. You pay for the TR then they pay you. It is SSTR. P2F is where you pay or don't get paid to fly the line.
Olympic Air - Employment Opportunities
Flight crew - Page 3
airberlin.com - Cockpit
Vacancies
CARPATAIR - First Officer - Quality and Safety, Our Fleet, Wet Lease Services
FlyLal are apparently hiring
BTW, I wouldn't class Ryanair as pay to fly. You pay for the TR then they pay you. It is SSTR. P2F is where you pay or don't get paid to fly the line.
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I know the likes of Ryanair are probably still recruiting those who want to pay to work, but that is because part of their profit comes from those guys
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Airbus Girl,
I can only speak for myself but here's why I am where I am.
The airline screening I had early this year was with a German major flying in red colors. I failed the ATPL knowledge part so was sent home. Bummer. I had only five weeks to get my ATPL knowledge up to speed, which clearly was not enough. Applicants can try again after 24 months though.
The other job offer was with a GA company specializing in aerial photography. Fleet of aicraft were a twin and one SE. It would have been a permanent position with OK salary but with a bonding. At that time I had a freelance flying job, flying a twin as FO, so I was in the fortunate position of being able to turn it down as I just did not like the idea of being bonded. Tough call though as we all know the rule, never ever turn down a flying job.
Only one months later though I learned of a temp summer job flying a SE. Salary job. I applied, got invited and was offered the job. I was told 67 people had applied, most of which with lots of experience on that aircraft. No bonding, great location so I took it. Just before that I was offered another freelance unpaid SE job dropping jumpers.
I recently applied to a regional airline on the continent and had the written tests and sim ride recently. I passed that stage. Final interview is just around the corner. TR will start this year. On the day were six guys with me, two of which with rating but except one (did not get a chance to speak with him) none of them was being employed right now. One of the guys with rating had not even done anything flying related in two years!
Airlines hiring low timers, apart from RYR, are CLH, GWI, CFG, AB, LGW. AF is also said to be hiring again. Unfortunately, I do not know their requirements.
Best of luck.
I can only speak for myself but here's why I am where I am.
The airline screening I had early this year was with a German major flying in red colors. I failed the ATPL knowledge part so was sent home. Bummer. I had only five weeks to get my ATPL knowledge up to speed, which clearly was not enough. Applicants can try again after 24 months though.
The other job offer was with a GA company specializing in aerial photography. Fleet of aicraft were a twin and one SE. It would have been a permanent position with OK salary but with a bonding. At that time I had a freelance flying job, flying a twin as FO, so I was in the fortunate position of being able to turn it down as I just did not like the idea of being bonded. Tough call though as we all know the rule, never ever turn down a flying job.
Only one months later though I learned of a temp summer job flying a SE. Salary job. I applied, got invited and was offered the job. I was told 67 people had applied, most of which with lots of experience on that aircraft. No bonding, great location so I took it. Just before that I was offered another freelance unpaid SE job dropping jumpers.
I recently applied to a regional airline on the continent and had the written tests and sim ride recently. I passed that stage. Final interview is just around the corner. TR will start this year. On the day were six guys with me, two of which with rating but except one (did not get a chance to speak with him) none of them was being employed right now. One of the guys with rating had not even done anything flying related in two years!
Airlines hiring low timers, apart from RYR, are CLH, GWI, CFG, AB, LGW. AF is also said to be hiring again. Unfortunately, I do not know their requirements.
Best of luck.
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1.Not everybody who trains has to get in to massive debts.
2.Not everybody who trains who DOES NOT GET IN TO MASSIVE DEBTS, are being sponsored by Mummy or Daddy!
3.There quite a few with their OWN MONEY, who can afford to spend it on training.
It's so boring everytime I read such comments, that everybody who trains are either of the first 2 situations.
Not everyone training belongs to the 2 first categories.
Now if people with their own finances in order wants to take the risk on an aviation career. Tell them not to train now is nonsense. Might as well maintain the IR, as do general flying. If you do not train now, when finally the UPTURN does arrive, everybody with out their ratings in order will be left behind with another 12 months to complete their training.
Not all pilot students/wannabes are poor idiots without money, brain or understanding the calculated risk they take!
2.Not everybody who trains who DOES NOT GET IN TO MASSIVE DEBTS, are being sponsored by Mummy or Daddy!
3.There quite a few with their OWN MONEY, who can afford to spend it on training.
It's so boring everytime I read such comments, that everybody who trains are either of the first 2 situations.
Not everyone training belongs to the 2 first categories.
Now if people with their own finances in order wants to take the risk on an aviation career. Tell them not to train now is nonsense. Might as well maintain the IR, as do general flying. If you do not train now, when finally the UPTURN does arrive, everybody with out their ratings in order will be left behind with another 12 months to complete their training.
Not all pilot students/wannabes are poor idiots without money, brain or understanding the calculated risk they take!
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AH 123
Ahhh, I see now. I top finance guy gives away vital, totally confidential information that should never leave the inside of his office. I would of thought divulging that kind of information would even be regarded as insider trading and could bring with it a jail term.
Either way, its pants. Aviation is in dire poo, especially in the UK. With the euro in crisis and every western nation facing massive cuts, which will result in horrific unemployment which will make 2011 a far worse year for aviation and beyond.
However, don't listen to me go and waste all your money on a pipe dream and join all the others facing bankruptcy.
"there are non so blind as those that cannot see"
Ahhh, I see now. I top finance guy gives away vital, totally confidential information that should never leave the inside of his office. I would of thought divulging that kind of information would even be regarded as insider trading and could bring with it a jail term.
Either way, its pants. Aviation is in dire poo, especially in the UK. With the euro in crisis and every western nation facing massive cuts, which will result in horrific unemployment which will make 2011 a far worse year for aviation and beyond.
However, don't listen to me go and waste all your money on a pipe dream and join all the others facing bankruptcy.
"there are non so blind as those that cannot see"
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AH 123
As per my earlier e-mail. It's not just the UK. All the financial press I read, including the FT drones on about the dire state of aviation world wide.
The f/o's seat is being taken over by the p2f bregade.
I wish you the very, very best of luck but if your career plan is based on what a newspaper says you are taking a huge risk with your future.
But hey, I have only worked in this business for 25 years, what do I know (apart from all those high hours guys who are sat at home with no job, and no prospect of a job other than leaving the family to live far far away).
As I say the very best of luck..........you really are going to need it.
As per my earlier e-mail. It's not just the UK. All the financial press I read, including the FT drones on about the dire state of aviation world wide.
The f/o's seat is being taken over by the p2f bregade.
I wish you the very, very best of luck but if your career plan is based on what a newspaper says you are taking a huge risk with your future.
But hey, I have only worked in this business for 25 years, what do I know (apart from all those high hours guys who are sat at home with no job, and no prospect of a job other than leaving the family to live far far away).
As I say the very best of luck..........you really are going to need it.
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"However, don't listen to me go and waste all your money on a pipe dream and join all the others facing bankruptcy."
One of the points I was making, is that not all who train are dumb idiots who put themselves into loads of debts!!!
Maybe it is a "pipe dream" - but there are quite a few career changers, with enough money to invest in themselves to try to get the "pipe dream" become a reality.
Some are willing to do whatever it takes, in the right amounts and at the right time. I agree, don't go and get massive debts!
It seems many on these boards that there are only 2 types of pilot wannabes, dumb debt slaves or mummy boys/girls!
After I do complete my IR, I can still afford to keep it, renew it for 10 years if I want, without it would effect my finances to keeping it current.
But if you sit "Waiting to start" - when there finally will be good times, you will again be outside the loop!
Now of course - if you don't have the money, then spend the time now to make the money you need, so when you have your CPL/IR - you don't go under because you became a debt slave!
P2F is wrong, but the system is wrong, when 500 hours 737 time line training is cheaper then paying to fly a light twin!
I think the industry, the ones in the industry should have a look at themselves, because there must be some "smart" bean counter and line training captain that suggested this idea in the first place!
It is amazing, but true - without any pilots agreeing to fly with a P2F FO, this would never have been a problem. That's why my motto is like theirs, look out for number one first!
One of the points I was making, is that not all who train are dumb idiots who put themselves into loads of debts!!!
Maybe it is a "pipe dream" - but there are quite a few career changers, with enough money to invest in themselves to try to get the "pipe dream" become a reality.
Some are willing to do whatever it takes, in the right amounts and at the right time. I agree, don't go and get massive debts!
It seems many on these boards that there are only 2 types of pilot wannabes, dumb debt slaves or mummy boys/girls!
After I do complete my IR, I can still afford to keep it, renew it for 10 years if I want, without it would effect my finances to keeping it current.
But if you sit "Waiting to start" - when there finally will be good times, you will again be outside the loop!
Now of course - if you don't have the money, then spend the time now to make the money you need, so when you have your CPL/IR - you don't go under because you became a debt slave!
P2F is wrong, but the system is wrong, when 500 hours 737 time line training is cheaper then paying to fly a light twin!
I think the industry, the ones in the industry should have a look at themselves, because there must be some "smart" bean counter and line training captain that suggested this idea in the first place!
It is amazing, but true - without any pilots agreeing to fly with a P2F FO, this would never have been a problem. That's why my motto is like theirs, look out for number one first!
Supercharged PPRuNer
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That's why my motto is like theirs, look out for number one first!
And as for:
After I do complete my IR, I can still afford to keep it, renew it for 10 years if I want, without it would effect my finances to keeping it current.
But if you sit "Waiting to start" - when there finally will be good times, you will again be outside the loop!
But if you sit "Waiting to start" - when there finally will be good times, you will again be outside the loop!
Best of luck.
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P2F is wrong, but the system is wrong, when 500 hours 737 time line training is cheaper then paying to fly a light twin!
P2F will only go away if there is legislative change or if it can be proved that there is an adverse safety impact form P2F. I can't see either happening nor can I see wannabes who can afford it sticking to their principles.
Bull*hit walks and money talks and all of that. Same goes for anything in life.
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"G SXTY" - I have read few of your posts in the past, and I do agree with much of what you say.
I do think you misunderstand a little of the "irony" in my post! (I am not the one looking out for number 1 - how can I be? I don't even have an airline job!!)
I do not step over my friends, and I do not have a problem to give tips where I hear someone might be hiring to friends of mine. I am not in position myself to have a chance for a hiring with any of these companies at the moment anyway.
By helping others today, maybe in the future someone will help me! I can not rely on this, because life has thought me that not all people help others.
When I was doing my PPL, I heard of a few small jobs around, and I told my instructor about this, so he could apply. He did not get a job, but is that being selfish?
I doubt I would find many who would do the same back to me.
I am greatfull for the advice given by you and others on these forums, I don't wish to sound arrogant, because that is not my nature. If someone invests a "small fortune" in this career - I will hope that I would be preferred ahead of someone else, however thinking this way, how can that be wrong? Saying what we think on a forum, makes it seem wrong!
Competition is hard, and I hope everyone makes it, unfortunately some of us will not make it! I have made many friends after I started this journey, and I have to say most of them are great, and if I know of any chance of a job I would tell them - however the people I do not know or have any relation with, what do you expect my attitude to be?
The P2F guys - are selfish - or their parents have made them selfish! And help destroy the industry as we have known it in the past.
I have seen and met plenty with more money than sense, and ready to burn whatever money it takes to get them into that RHS. For me and others this can seem very demotivating, because it puts the pressure on "us" that after we have spent a small fortune on the CPL/ME/IR/MCC/JOC - there is no jobs unless you can spend another small fortune on TR/Line training!
I feel that pilots who have been in steady work over several years, and who I also known have struggled to reach this point of their career, still they have also allowed this P2F happen, as many on this forums have said, the P2F pilots are as capable as any others to be FO's - still I have heard many Captains resent the thought of sitting next to a 250 Low Hour FO, it is not very attractive - however these pilots seem to have NO VOICE in their airlines operations and recruitment! At least we have not heard their voice!
Maybe some of these experienced Captains have forgot what the dream was about, maybe they have lost touch with the struggles they had themselves to get their first job. So who is selfish now? I am not the one who has been looking after myself! I do not have a job, and my chances are according to these forums as remote as being able to manage time travel within the next 100 years!
So many are so angry with the P2F - who is angry? Is it only wannabes? Or do we have some REAL PILOTS, with REAL EXPERIENCE and good jobs, that will stand up for their own profession? For me it seems not to be so, it seems to be no interest to change the root of this problem, because of course they would put their own jobs on the line by refusing this concept, the airlines have won, they have all the power - because people are to afraid of loosing their jobs if they said NO to P2F!
I do understand them, but it is the sad truth of P2F and the future of aviation!
I do think you misunderstand a little of the "irony" in my post! (I am not the one looking out for number 1 - how can I be? I don't even have an airline job!!)
I do not step over my friends, and I do not have a problem to give tips where I hear someone might be hiring to friends of mine. I am not in position myself to have a chance for a hiring with any of these companies at the moment anyway.
By helping others today, maybe in the future someone will help me! I can not rely on this, because life has thought me that not all people help others.
When I was doing my PPL, I heard of a few small jobs around, and I told my instructor about this, so he could apply. He did not get a job, but is that being selfish?
I doubt I would find many who would do the same back to me.
I am greatfull for the advice given by you and others on these forums, I don't wish to sound arrogant, because that is not my nature. If someone invests a "small fortune" in this career - I will hope that I would be preferred ahead of someone else, however thinking this way, how can that be wrong? Saying what we think on a forum, makes it seem wrong!
Competition is hard, and I hope everyone makes it, unfortunately some of us will not make it! I have made many friends after I started this journey, and I have to say most of them are great, and if I know of any chance of a job I would tell them - however the people I do not know or have any relation with, what do you expect my attitude to be?
The P2F guys - are selfish - or their parents have made them selfish! And help destroy the industry as we have known it in the past.
I have seen and met plenty with more money than sense, and ready to burn whatever money it takes to get them into that RHS. For me and others this can seem very demotivating, because it puts the pressure on "us" that after we have spent a small fortune on the CPL/ME/IR/MCC/JOC - there is no jobs unless you can spend another small fortune on TR/Line training!
I feel that pilots who have been in steady work over several years, and who I also known have struggled to reach this point of their career, still they have also allowed this P2F happen, as many on this forums have said, the P2F pilots are as capable as any others to be FO's - still I have heard many Captains resent the thought of sitting next to a 250 Low Hour FO, it is not very attractive - however these pilots seem to have NO VOICE in their airlines operations and recruitment! At least we have not heard their voice!
Maybe some of these experienced Captains have forgot what the dream was about, maybe they have lost touch with the struggles they had themselves to get their first job. So who is selfish now? I am not the one who has been looking after myself! I do not have a job, and my chances are according to these forums as remote as being able to manage time travel within the next 100 years!
So many are so angry with the P2F - who is angry? Is it only wannabes? Or do we have some REAL PILOTS, with REAL EXPERIENCE and good jobs, that will stand up for their own profession? For me it seems not to be so, it seems to be no interest to change the root of this problem, because of course they would put their own jobs on the line by refusing this concept, the airlines have won, they have all the power - because people are to afraid of loosing their jobs if they said NO to P2F!
I do understand them, but it is the sad truth of P2F and the future of aviation!
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Either way, its pants. Aviation is in dire poo, especially in the UK. With the euro in crisis and every western nation facing massive cuts, which will result in horrific unemployment which will make 2011 a far worse year for aviation and beyond.
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Guys, please, stop whining about the bad rich kids hanging on to P2F schemes. There still is more than one company out there hiring low timers and not asking to go along P2Fs. In fact, it's the huge majority.
UK economy is stuffed indeed for a few years to come but economy in central Europe certainly is not. When I embarked on my journey I checked most airlines' websites for their cockpit crew requirements and when I read most outfits require a high school diploma, preferably even a uni degree, to get interviews it was pretty logic to me to get it. Period. Now when I hear in country x companies are hiring I will consider moving there to learn the language to eventually get a shot. It's simple. Plain simple.
With regards to no flying jobs around the UK. As a non-British citizen I had one freelance job in the UK till early this year, another job offer - both positions unpaid though (I do not consider a sandwich and drink pay) -, two definite job offers on the continent in the GA (no jet, one permament, one temp) and am now in two holding pools with turbo prop operators, both of which are said to be hiring towards the end of this year. One of them pays for the rating, even pays a salary during training. I might have gotten extremely lucky but I think it's not like that. It's hard work and persistence.
Really, I truly do not mean to show off but I will not buy that there are no jobs out there. There are. There always are.
I have had the opportunity now of talking to many other wannabes on screenings/interviews and boy, some of those people are so uncreative when it comes to improving their CV! It is shocking. Some of them sit around two years after flight school without doing jack ****. They are happy with just stacking shelves at supermarkets. I mean no shame in that, but if I cannot fly commercially than I will make sure I get my butt in the air privately on as many occasions as I can. I asked them why they had not joined a gliding club for example, I mean, come on, you want to fly so it's got to be your passion, right? They just stared...
Good luck everyone. Hang in there. Times must get better. Times will get better.
UK economy is stuffed indeed for a few years to come but economy in central Europe certainly is not. When I embarked on my journey I checked most airlines' websites for their cockpit crew requirements and when I read most outfits require a high school diploma, preferably even a uni degree, to get interviews it was pretty logic to me to get it. Period. Now when I hear in country x companies are hiring I will consider moving there to learn the language to eventually get a shot. It's simple. Plain simple.
With regards to no flying jobs around the UK. As a non-British citizen I had one freelance job in the UK till early this year, another job offer - both positions unpaid though (I do not consider a sandwich and drink pay) -, two definite job offers on the continent in the GA (no jet, one permament, one temp) and am now in two holding pools with turbo prop operators, both of which are said to be hiring towards the end of this year. One of them pays for the rating, even pays a salary during training. I might have gotten extremely lucky but I think it's not like that. It's hard work and persistence.
Really, I truly do not mean to show off but I will not buy that there are no jobs out there. There are. There always are.
I have had the opportunity now of talking to many other wannabes on screenings/interviews and boy, some of those people are so uncreative when it comes to improving their CV! It is shocking. Some of them sit around two years after flight school without doing jack ****. They are happy with just stacking shelves at supermarkets. I mean no shame in that, but if I cannot fly commercially than I will make sure I get my butt in the air privately on as many occasions as I can. I asked them why they had not joined a gliding club for example, I mean, come on, you want to fly so it's got to be your passion, right? They just stared...
Good luck everyone. Hang in there. Times must get better. Times will get better.
