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Ryanair TR Funding

Old 22nd Oct 2009, 20:49
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Manchester,uk
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This nonsense will end after the first fatal accident involving a "pay to fly" FO.
Sad, but that's what it will take before the cretins in Parliament will get off their fat backsides and actually do something. Sad also because apart from the loss of life, the spotlight will be turned on this industry and the usual whackos will crawl out of the woodwork demanding higher taxes and more restrictions. The end result will be higher costs and less available jobs for all the little rich kids who are currently buying their way in to the detriment of everyone else.
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 20:58
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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i wonder now that xmas is approaching will santa be overwhelmed with letters from with the apple of mummy and daddys eye asking for a 737 and an a320 rating!?
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Old 22nd Oct 2009, 22:11
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Some interesting points of view on this issue.

Bealebub's post is certainly a fair assessment of the current awful situation facing the industry as a whole but in my opinion you can't extrapolate from there and reasonably place this poisoned chalice at the feet of the individual 'first runger'. That would be akin to blaming the individual consumer for house price inflation because it was they who paid over-the-odds in a rising property market. Yet we don't blame the consumer because we know it was Government policy and Bank greed that lit the fire; consumers had little choice but to fuel it for fear of missing out on buying their own homes.

So I really don't think you can blame the people entering the industry now for the Aviation Industry's move to the no frills, low cost shorthaul model over the last ten years. I agree that each person who signs up to work in the low cost model is greasing the pole and we'll continue to slide down it, but for every person who atruistically says a big 'NO', there will be 3 more who will say an enthusiastic 'YES'. In my opinion there is no realistic way of reversing this trend aside from regulation in the form of introducing a requirement to hold an ATPL before flying a passenger jet.

In the absence of regulation, are those with talent and real desire to be commercial pilots, who would be willing to take a more traditional course into the industry if that particular river hadn't almost dried up, supposed to sit back and watch their peers surf ahead of them on the Ryanair wave?

A controversial thought: Is gaining a job with Ryanair a kind of modern day Pyrrhic victory yet perhaps a little preferable to being stuck in the doldrums?
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 09:51
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Nevertheless, the company prefers to take shiny new cadets ( first rungers ) and train them to the RHS because they don't come laden down with other airlines SOPs and cultures.
That sounds like a reasonably good definition for something we used to call experience. Once trained do these "new cadets" then become similarly "ladened down" by these recently learned SOP's and cultures? It is astonishing to think that people can perceive themselves as so restricted, that education and experience is seen as a burden rather than a benefit. Even if what is being stated has an element of truth to it, it is rather undermined by the commercial profit angle, than it would be if it were being advanced from a purely altruistic viewpoint. The advantages of a "wealth of experience" seem to have been corrupted into simply an advantage of wealth!

There was a thread on here recently about some new charter/leasing outfit that was recruiting new "cadets" to crew and even train new recruits for the plethora of low cost leasing opportunities that it felt was coming its way. In an advertisement that contained no telephone number, no address, and no names of company management, it asked applicants to participate if they had a PPL! If they couldn't satisfy this strict criteria, they could apply if they had an NPPL! The only strict criteria they seemed to have established was the number that they wanted writing on the cheque these people would hand over. I am sure the motive was also to avoid being burderned by those ladened down with knowledge or experience. Indeed, it would have to be!

i seriously don't understand why there is always an attack on the younger pilots on this forum. we all understand that we are borrowing money from our parents to start training but it doesn't mean that we will forget about them as soon as we are on the ladder.

i don't take this advantage for granted because i know without my parents, i wouldn't have been at this stage of my career but when the opportunity of ryanair came along, why wouldn't i take it? i get to keep current, get paid, remain in the loop and most importantly i am learning the trade and gaining experience. at this moment in time, what is better? refusing to join ryanair and becoming rusty with little experience or join ryanair and become experienced?
To some extent your post answers your own question. It is a denial or what is happening, and an omission of any acknowledgment of what is being highlighted on this and similar threads. I am a parent of numerous children, including children who want to become commercial pilots. I am a senior pilot myself and would want to do everything I could to offer my own children the support, encouragement and opportunity to give them a head start. I am very well placed to to do so in respect of many of the aspects that might be perceived as advantageous to a potential candidate. However the advice I am giving my own children is the same advice I am giving here.

I have no agenda, or axe to grind with anybody. My participation on this forum is partly because of my own family situation, and my own background as an instructor. I want only the best things for this industry. I want to see flying schools thrive and prosper. It is in these schools that many of the real "first rung" jobs have, and always will, potentially exist. I want to see the continuation and modification of a standard that shows healthy discrimination (don't misinterpret the word,) in the standards required for advancement. I want to see airline careers that represent the top of the pyramid, in levels of attainment, and commensurate rewards. Careers that are really careers, not just "jobs"! Even worse, that they are not limited duration, sales pitched, commercial marketing opportunities, intended to extract large sums of money from would be hopefulls on the back of vague promises of a "career" somewhere over the brow of a hill.

I am conscious of dissolving into metaphor, but nevertheless let me tell you how I see it.

I find myself working at the top of a very attractive tree, in what has been a long established and very leafy and pleasant copse. It has taken a long time to get to the upper branches, but for those with a head for heights, it is the place to be. Were it not for the demands of my darling wife, my little darlings, and that Mr Darling in Downing Street, I would earn enough to buy myself a brand new Ferrari 430 every single year. These attractive trees have enticed a new batch of young climbers every year for as long as I can remember. The upper branches have slowly grown and only become vacant as my fellow occupants reach a certain age and move off to another copse by the seaside, or they expire and fall out of the tree.

A few years ago, fearful of the challenges being presented from the fast growing, genetically modified and high yielding forest, being planted in the nearby field, the custodians in suits, who manage, cultivate and sell the fruit of the trees in this copse, started to take some defensive action. Firstly they introduced an admission fee and some strict contractual stipulations on those who wanted to climb the tree. Then they put a barbed wire collar around the trunk about two thirds of the way up towards the canopy, so that those new climbers could only ever climb so far. At the top where the view is spectacular, we watched in some bemusement at what was going on below. Obviously we were relatively unaffected, although we did wonder what was happening. Then recently we noticed that our custodians in smart suits have retreated to a safe distance, and into the copse have arrived some men with chainsaws and pruning shears. We hope this is to tidy up and smarten the tree as promised, but despite the panoramic view we occupy, it has instilled a significant degree of nervousness. If this tree is pruned so that it no longer has a leafy canopy, where are those new climbers going to climb to? Already their aspirations have been curtailed, even though they seem to think that the recent barbed wire collars will be removed to allow them further progress. Now there is the sound of the chainsaws being started!

Look, I have no problem at all with people borrowing money from their parents or anybody else. I have no problem at all with glossy brochures, or anybody painting a rosy picture to sell anything. It happens in all walks of life, and part of the process of becoming an adult is learning to recognise and beware of such temptations. I wish people well in seeking to obtain a better future for themselves. However there needs to be a reality check. As I have already pointed out that reality is not an unfailing prediction of the future, or a complete understanding of what is happening. It is an assessment and observation being made from an advantageous viewpoint.

Undoubtably some people will continue to gamble on what is becoming a very elusive and significantly constrained career. I have no problem with that concept either. However I wonder how many people would play the lottery every week, if you had to buy 100,000 worth of tickets to stand a chance of winning? Even less I suspect if the potential prize money on offer was barely likely to cover the stake, let alone live an aspirational lifestyle. Much as I am pleased at the prospect of my children following in my footsteps, I have already told them that the pathway no longer leads to the same destination, and people have planted landmines in the intervening period. I may (as some would say on here) seem very negative, but I am simply saying be very careful. Listen to those who might be able to help, even if it is not what you want to hear. Open your eyes, and navigate this path with extreme caution!

Airlines are struggling and fighting tooth and nail to turn a profit from people who believe they can fly for 99 pence. Can you imagine how stupid they would be to ignore the market for people who are ready to pay tens of thousands of pounds for the opportunity or chance to sit in the right seat of one of their aircraft, with no commitments on either side, and a healthy supply of customers. They used to pay big money to applicants for these seats, now the applicants pay big money to the airline in order to sit there.

This nonsense will end after the first fatal accident involving a "pay to fly" FO.
Yes quite probably. I also note you said "involving" and not "caused by". The public wants to fly for 99p, but it still expects the latest technology, the best standards of maintenance, and the highest calibre of operating personel. On the balance of probablilities, it is inevitable that at some point there will be unpleasant images of some unfortunate event splashed across the pages of the Daily mail and repeated ad nauseaum on Sky news. These are two of the publics main windows on the world. They seek instant answers, and just like lightning, they want the path of least resistance in obtaining answers for their impatient audience. This is the media that will be the catalyst for eventual change.

Where is the need for courses that enable cadets with barely 100 hours to qualify as airline pilots? This is not the first or second world war, where the demands of the nations survival requires raw recruits to be made operationaly ready in a matter of days. There is no shortage of commercial pilots. If structured, relevant, multi crew training is seen as a vital part of the entry level requirements for an airline pilot, why is not made an addition to a predetermined experience base, rather than a substitute for it? What is so special about the new courses being cobbled together in the home counties, Spain and Florida that overrides the need for an experience base? Where is the imperative? The answer of course is back to those cost reductions being clamoured for by the airline accountants. In order to drop the cost of employing a pilot, they must increase the supply by whatever means they can that doesn't involve them in their own additional costs. These new schemes are the answers to their prayers. They not only drive down costs at the oversupplied and self financing entry level, they have the additional benefits of driving down costs throughout much of the upward chain, and being a whole new profit centre in themselves!

In the United States, similarly profiled accidents, that may or may not have been a contributory factor, have stimulated the change that is now going through congress. An Airline Transport rating and 1500 hours minimum experience is set to become the new basic benchmark for this type of flying. It will happen here as well eventually, and probably not before time.
There is no difficulty whatsoever in finding suitable candidates to fill these seats from such a benchmark position. Of course the difficulty would be in finding enough who would do it for a low level of renumeration, or none at all, or would pay a company to sit there.
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 10:45
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Folks lets not forget this pay for work problem isnt just ryr or industry related, my last engineering company used engineers as self employed for out of house work, this meaning the engineers had to buy and pay the upkeep for their own vans, no such thing as company vans, hence if you couldnt afford or own the van, you couldnt have the job.

I know some of you will say thats no way the same as the sstr, well at the end of the day its 20k so you can do the job!
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 12:59
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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i fully understand that it seems that as long as you have money then you could enter the industry and that will be it. however i am sure they all had to pass the IRT just like everyone else so i am sure that the standard is still there.

the thing that i don't like is that there seem to be a generalisation that if the pilot is young then he or she is automatically assumed to be irresponsible and had it all given to them. the point i am trying to make is that either though he or she might be young, they had to carry out the same tests and reach the same standard. granted there are plenty of pilots with much more experience and are restricted from a job because of financial reasons but people are not going to stop themselves from paying for a TR through moral reasons. going back to the lewis hamilton analogy, if his father wasn't able to come up with the funds to support him in karting, then how would he have been spotted by mclaren? i dont think he would have turned around to his dad and say that because someone else can't afford it then he would restrict his own future by only going into karting if he had earned his own money. how old would he be once he has finally earned the money? would he still be able to be a world champion if he did that?

i fully appreciate that people paying for TRs are posing a restriction for people without the advantage of affluent parents but you will never stop them all. a bit like recycling, you might do it but would that save the world? forgive me for using analogies at every opportunity.

ultimately, i seriously would be against people without the correct aptitude and skill to be in the RHS simply through money.
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Old 23rd Oct 2009, 15:17
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Play the ball - not the player!

HWB

Last edited by Halfwayback; 23rd Oct 2009 at 15:44. Reason: Personal attack
smiler68 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2009, 08:29
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Irishpilot1990, I saw what you wrote to me - you said I clearly had tried to be selected by Ryanair but failed and then went on to say or I had done 'this' or I had done 'that' as your idea as to why I have the views that I have. First of all, don't use words that you clearly don't understand, like the word clearly. If it is so clear why are you giving 'ors'? I'd say to you it seems as clear as mud. Think, then speak - in that order. You do the public standing of your airlines 'selected' pilots no favours with your poorly reasoned, spoilt-brat-like, child-like, weak, unintelligent, everly obvious contributions that stem from an enormous amount of mollycoddling I'd imagine and a lacking of life experience. Don't worry, it'll come fella and from the route you have chosen, probably the hard way. For the record, I have never, ever, ever, ever done a Ryanair selection and nor would I and right now nor could I (unless I am willing to pay another 33K for something I already have). It was said in the latest BALPA magazine in the last week that Ryanair wont take the likes of ex-Excel guys and girls because they'd have to pay them a proper salary. It's a fact. It has nothing to do with ironing out other airlines SOPs.

If my words hit home too hard for you, then listen to the likes of MH152, Bealzebub, WWW and Blackred. If you wish to use me as a punch bag to vent your frustration over the embarrassment of having to be bought 'life' by your parents, then punch away big boy. I'd be embarassed too. There is less than no pride in it. And as for saying that these people passed an IR or the ATPLs so they have fairly reached the standard, come on! The ATPLs are an insult to ones intelligence generally and the IR isn't rocket science past being able to fly a plane - it's a case of following instrumental instructions and following the rules. Then again, the way some of you lot seem to try and oppose the system, no wonder you found it a struggle. The most important part of being selected to become an airline pilot, in my opinion, past all the flying exams which to my mind are a sort of entrance exam, is the personality selection - the interview - something Ryanair apparently couldn't give a for.

As for you smiler, with regards to this site, you're throw away, just look at your posting history. You offer no advice, you just try to argue and be rude without adding a single molecule of value either way.

I'd like to point out that I do not have a problem with refute to my opinions, MH152, TRSS etc all make valid, worthwhile, value-adding, rational and reasonable points in favour of thr Ryanair TR. It isn't overwhelming though and the Cons still by far outweigh the Pros.


P.S. As for you comparing me to Nick Griffin, Irishpilot1990, again you are speaking irrelevantly, out of your depth and like the little boy or girl you present yourself to be.

Last edited by TheBeak; 24th Oct 2009 at 10:47.
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 15:40
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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You can't spell.
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 15:42
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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SSTR

Ok so this is where I am...
I am very proudly about to start a SSTR with Ryanair and to be honest I can't be happier. Am I lending money off my mum and dad..... Yes! Am I lending 30K...... No!
Is it embarrassing..... No! For the last 7 months since leaving my flight school I have been working. And not just your standard bar job, I have been working over 60 hours a week to afford to be able to progress in a career that I have wanted to do since I was young.
Is the SSTR a risk, bloody hell yes. A calculated risk all the same. If I didn't do this then I would be another person resitting my IR in March and then again the following March waiting for the market to pick up. I am not going to sit around whilst a decent job passes me by.
I do not know how much money I will be lending, but at the moment it wont be any more than 10K. That, I could lend from my bank, I have talked to them about it, but I will be stung on the intrest. Something that I believe I will be paying enough of over the next many years of my life. And something you will all probably agree is needed, but honestly could do with out. My parents have offered me the money on a LOAN basis, i am paying them back with intrest but half of that with the bank! Win Win in my eyes, I get my money, parents make money! Bonus!
I am sorry that I may upset people for what I am doing, however I have worked hard to get what I now have, just as many people have worked hard to get where they are, why don't I deserve the same.
People need to face that aviation industry is changing!! For the better? Who knows? But all I know is that I am in the middle of it. You have to grab the bull by the horns in change and hang on for the ride. Lets hope its a smooth one!
Take care
Safe Flying everyone.
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 16:11
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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least i have a life!!and an open mind!
irishpilot1990 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2009, 16:26
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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have asked you what companies at the moment or in next 6 months will be hiring cadets(more then 1 or 2 sons and daughters) and paying the cadet for type rating??
Thanks for adding the value, what does the above mean exactly? I think you need to slow down, settle down and get ready to 'go down' when your 'airline' really demonstrates it's lack of commitment to you. You are on a rolling one month contract. I wouldn't be so comfortable if I was you.

And Tommyg, take off your rose tinted glasses. Read up on Murphys law.
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 16:51
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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it means you siad there are other options for low hour cadets??what are they...you still havent given any of us any details of these so called "options and free type ratings".
yes i agree there is some...few and far between and you have to be in the tiny loop or extremely lucky to get them...
And look a direct attack on tommyg...someone whos giving you an alternate view that disagrees with yours...grow up...
and also where have i said i work with or for ryanair or brookfield on this forum?!!?
because i am not on a "rolling one month contract"..and many people prefer a one month contract then sitting at home waiting...waiting to renew their IR twice or three times!!
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 17:10
  #194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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The Beak, March 2007:

Quote:
I am 22, have a PPL and have the money to complete the rest of my ATPL training with Oxford through their 'Waypoint' programme. I also have the opportunity to go to Sandhurst and be in the Army for 4 years and then do my pilot training. I do not have a degree though I did do a couple of years at uni doing Mechanical Engineering. Ultimately like everyone else on here, I am sure I want to be a commercial pilot. Is it going to add any value to someone like myself doing the Army for 4 years and then being qualified to fly at 27 or am I just as well off being 23 with an ATPL? I am interested to hear peoples opinions especially from those qualififed or who have jobs............

Thanks very much.

P.S. Army Air Corps is not an option as it would tie me into the Army for too long and would get me a military helo licence with not many hours which I do not see much value in. I have passed both Royal Naval and Army pilot selection and do not want to go down that road.
How did you manage to go from a silly little ppl holder to an all knowing chief test/training/super pilot in around 2.5 years?? I'm very impressed.
"

End quote....

And

"No I am not currently flying for an airline unfortunately. I have done in the past and will do in the future."

Funny, something doesnt add up that in MAR 2007 you had a PPL..so earliest you could have had a frozen ATPL was JAN 2008.
And in the following 18months you managed to find an airline who would give you a free type rating and then let you go in that short space of time!!!

And your the one painting life outside Ryanair as been better?!?how?
maybe in 2007 if you went to Ryanair you might be near the LHS now!!Correction you would be!
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 17:31
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Age: 33
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Hahahahaha

Well what else could I expect from you The Beak. Never mind one day you to will be happy! I believe you may be the same age as me, what has upset you so much in your life for you to be so angry? For god sake man pull your self together.
8 hours in a cockpit with you....................
NO THANKS!
Anything that can go wrong will go wrong! Correct, however you must try your best whilst the thing that will go wrong is currently going right!
Remember the glass is always half full..... Well half empty in your case!
All the best The Beak.
Take care and happy landings.
tommyg737 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2009, 17:49
  #196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
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I am not getting sucked in by you. This is pointless. You are self perpetuating. You argue with yourself.

Though, since you want to discuss dates etc. and past posts how come you wrote in June:

Hello,

I am in the same boat...I have irish IAA ATPL exam results..and want to do my CPL the CAA route..from my reading of LASORS this is ok....but i am trying to get clarification from the CAA and...
So you hadn't done your CPL in June but now fly for Ryanair? Really, that's interesting. Another 'Ryanair pilot'.

Last edited by TheBeak; 24th Oct 2009 at 18:17.
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Old 24th Oct 2009, 18:28
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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exactly my point i never said i worked for ryanair or brookfield...you jumped the gun as usual! edited to add i have attained my CPL since that post!!

and you still have not told us how you managed to find the perfect free type rating and super salary job...and lose it with the last 18months!!!
irishpilot1990 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2009, 18:53
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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the Beak, you claim that the Ryanair selection is a complete joke and the selection panel place no emphasis on the interview part, can you answer me how you 'jumped' to this conclusion when you state that you have never in the past, or never will in the future go for assesment at FR?
smiler68 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2009, 18:56
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Can someone tell me what would be required in order to upgrade at Ryanair? I've seen the Direct Entry Captain requirements and I'm not quite there, but was curious, if one was to join as a fresh First Officer, what qualifications would be needed in order to upgrade.

Thanks.
BritishGuy is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2009, 19:26
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Sure Smiler, I read it and I have heard it. Here are a couple of comments that I read:

The Ryanair pilots who do the sim assessment are human: they are experienced pilots and you will find yourself doing base training or line training with them.

They are NOT like the "up their own assholes" ThomsonFly assessors so don't worry.
PS FR is the best job in the business so keep applying, and whatever else you do, don't ever mention being in some holding pool.
From TRSS.

And:

Like the lads say above the assesment is lost and won in the sim from my experience.
If You fly well, wipe the Pilot monitorings backside
and be yourself you shouldnt have a problem.
From The Glide.

Irishpilot I did assume. And you have proved my whole point. You are admitting defeat before you are even qualified. You know you wont bother sending out a C.V. to another airline and wait it out a year to see what happens, it's far easier for you to take advantage of your parents good nature and just pay for the job with Ryanair. It's pathetic. Don't wonder why many more crashes will happen and why this career is going down the pan.
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