Ryanair TR Funding

[blackred1443]

im not a low houred pilot now,i've not researched the job market now you are correct

post 9/11 i was a low houred pilot,i didnt have the money to pay for a tr.jobs market was similiar, ryr was the main recruiter, charging for tr

i still managed to get a job on a jet, without paying up front for it.it was salary deduction.yes it did involve a chunk of luck but also i would like to think down to me using my loaf.it forces you to show some initiative and be inventive in how i went my job search.where there is a will there is a way!these pay to fly schemes at ezy,ryr etc are destroying the industry.its needs to stop

i respect you may not share my view,but fail to see the hysteria in my opinion?

[Mikehotel152]

We're at cross-purposes, the quote regarding hysterics was from G-AWZK's post.

The experienced pilots with whom I have spoken regard this job market as worse than 9/11. I should add that I have a couple of very good friends who qualified about then, both of whom went into instructing and/or flying air taxi, one of whom got lucky after 3 years and has now been flying jets for 5 years, but sadly the other found himself to old to get into the airlines and missed out.

There are a lot of personal factors which determine whether one can afford to persevere with the job market or take the Ryanair 'deal'. Personally, I know I've made the correct decision.

[bigjarv]

When I was struggling to find flying work post CPL IR I did a plumbing course as it is a pretty lucrative, if not very glamorous, profession. Its not that hard being a plumber but it is pretty well paid.

The reason...

I thought this was brilliant! At the end of the course they tell you "this is the minimum hourly rate that the profession as a whole will charge. PLEASE don't charge below that amount to undercut the competition or else other plumbers will be forced to compete and the earning potential of everyone will be reduced". So as a result of this, the earning potential of plumbers still remains pretty high!

Now we, as supposedly intelligent pilots, will just clamber over one another to get jobs to the detriment of all else. It's not great it really isn't. However given the tough times and desperation, it is understandable and MOL and all airlines really will take advantage of you. As long as you know who you are. This is the only reason I can see to be part of a union no matter which one. There is no other benefit other than strength in numbers. But again this requires some selfless thought and an ability or desire to see the big picture cause being a part of a union is not free.

I always hope that when things pick up again and the number of jobs available increase and people have more options than Ryan they will move and seek employment elsewhere where they will be respected thus hindering Ryan's expansion. Ryan's "pay for your type rating" deal will be less attractive as people have other options so Ryan's ability to train new pilots quickly enough is reduced. Maybe then they will have to re think their offering and the tables will turn in favor of the pilot community once again.

Unfortunately the reality is, this won't happen. If Ryan is your first job you won't know any better plus people don't like change so when you are doing OK why move.

The result.....

We will never return to where we were before. Its just a fact. No point in discussing it anymore. Things change. At the end of the day it is survival of the fittest which includes us as pilots and airlines as entities. Money talks, end of.

[Mikehotel152]

Couldn't agree more bigjarv. The die is cast. Like it or not.

If I were 10 years younger I might not choose Ryanair but that's because I would have more options and more time to enter the industry in a manner that matches my morals. But right now I have to think about Ryanair on a purely personal level or I everything I have sacrificed for this new career will weigh more heavily on my mind than concerns about allegations that I have contributed to the downfall of industry-wide terms and conditions.

The reality for me is this: By Spring 2011 I will be in 'profit' notwithstanding paying for the FR Type Rating; by Jan 2002 I will unfreeze my ATPL; I could potentially be up for command in Spring 2014. All this assumes I prove to be a good commercial pilot, have the potential to sit on the lefthand side of the cockpit, and don't get booted by Ryanair or choose to move to greener pastures.

Terms and conditions are decaying in all industries. Pilots are no exception.

[blackred1443]

while i agree t and c are deteriorating in most industries other than banking .they do seem to be deteriorating at an alarming rate for pilot.while im sure mikehotel you do believe you made the correct decision for you in the short term, in terms of the rest of your overall career how can it be a good decision.you say a command beckons potentially in 2014, what type of a command will that be,what will the t and c be like.right now you are in a role where you have very little rights.they have wiped out 50k of your cash and what have you got in return.ryr can call you tomorrow and say sorry no work for you for six months.god forbid you get ill long term tomorrow where does that leave you,ryr dont care do they?

what kind of a job is that?what kind of a career is this?this race to the bottom will end in disaster for all.its more than a little disturbing.

i dont think the dye is cast,if people stop signing up for these crap pay to fly deals t an c will improve.simples

[bigjarv]

But the reality is people won't stop paying for these crap deals. Not for the foreseeable future at least. How are you or anyone else going to stop them? It's all very well bitching and moaning about it but it is going to happen so unless you can think of a way to stop them there really is nothing else to discuss!

Incidentally I think it is terrible that people are paying for their own type ratings. I think it is terribly short sighted on so many levels. I'm just glad I got into the industry when I did and didn't have to pay. I couldn't cope with another financial noose around my neck. There are too many other ones outside aviation that are also worthwhile. Gosh! Imagine that... a life outside aviation!

[Mikehotel152]

blackred, your points are mainly fair and I wouldn't disagree that the race to the bottom has started. I would love to say that I agree that it's reversible, but sadly I doubt it.

Nobody, Ryanair included, sees Brookfield as a career. It's the start of a career. I will see how it goes. If I enjoy it, I'll stay. I know Captains at FR who thoroughly enjoy their careers. I know FOs who are very content with their lot with Brookfield.

Once the recession ends and pilots have other options Ryanair may find themselves forced to change their attitude to SSTR. We'll see.

[Mikehotel152]

bigjarv - there is, and it's often more lucrative. I didn't change careers in order to make more money.

Let's get it into perspective; the financial 'noose' isn't that bad. Unpleasant but bearable.

[blackred1443]

mike hotel i do think it is reversible, if people stop paying for their own tr then airlines are forced to change.cheap labour is no longer available.my main concern is i have 35 years left in this game.i dread to think what its going to be like in 10 years time.while i can appreciate you had your reasons to choose to do the sstr, i think this cancer is ruining this career.ryr leads the race to the bottom and ezy and the rest follow in an effort to compete, terms get eroded.

i realise your probably earning quite a nice sum now at ryr but the lack of security offered for me is quite frankly terrifying,how can this be a career.

in my opinion is all it takes to stop this is people taking a stand and refusing sstr.ryr and ezy etc still need pilots, let them pay for it.just my opinion,i think im correct but it wouldnt be the first time i was wrong!

and also this is where the bank of mummy and daddy becomes a problem as generally those who can afford these crap terms are people who have the benefit of affluent parents

[Mikehotel152]

I completely agree that they should pay for it! Other than becoming defiantly unemployed - and subsequently divorced - I don't see what I can do about it.

Aside from posting sensible warnings, there's little more you can do for those willing to make huge and risky withdrawals from the Bank of Mummy and Daddy. If your point is instead that it's unfair that some have access to such funds while others haven't, I don't disagree but fairness doesn't play much part in life...I'm afraid.

[blackred1443]

mike hotel for me its not really a case of whether i think its morally right or wrong for daddy to pay for his 20 year olds tr,the bit that winds me up is when it directly impacts on my terms and i feel that this is now starting to happen.

i think if someone funds their tr out of their own pocket for me thats easier swallow in a way because they are making their own way in life, but when i see some rich kids generous parents directly buggering up my career, ya that sticks in my throat a bit.This career is becoming a battle of whose daddy has the deepest pockets.its no longer a sim/interview to find the most suitable candidate, its now about the funds the candidate can get his hands on.quite sad i think.but again just my opinion i could be talking b"£$%^!

[Mikehotel152]

Mate, I agree, which is probably why I keep posting on this thread, trying to explain my decision-making, so that people don't make assumptions about my behaviour and reasoning. There are always many sides to any debate.

IMHO nobody should secure positions like piloting, which requires skill and involves responsibility for other people's lives, unless they do so on merit. Money should not be a factor - at all. I don't care whether the person at the pointy end is rich, poor, multi-coloured, multi-limbed or speaks fluent Klingon, provided they do the job well and keep me safe!

In that respect, I guess I only care how people get hold of the money to pay for a Ryanair TR in as much as they don't gamble with other people's money.

As an aside, I should add that I've yet to see actual evidence that FR recruit pilots who aren't up to scratch but that may be because they get so many applications that they can afford to employ only pilots with excellent potential. Will things change once they face competition from other employers and potential Ryanair FOs vote with their feet, heading for airlines with better T&Cs? I don't know.

[pilotho]

i would have been really upset if FR just recruited people based on bank balance but i genuinely feel that beside the ability to pay for TR, they also assess the individual for suitability.

true there are a lot of young pilots being recruited and yes, they are being helped by their parents but could they also be decent pilots who are up to the job?

mind you, jet2 are starting to recruit again and if you are low hour, you could register with them.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You've made the right choice for your circumstance and I've recommended people to follow your path on these forums. Its the only game in town and it is better than most of the alternatives.

Its still another rung on the ladder down to **** creek that the profession is clambering. But thats not your fault. MOL has discovered that he can charge people for the chance to fly his aircraft from the RHS. Such a discovery is lucrative for him and other managers will copy him.





WWW

[TheBeak]

MikeHotel, it is quite clear that you have paid for your TR yourself, you have a more rational and reasoned response. I understand why you paid for your TR. Someone such as yourself doing what you did isn't ruining the industry. Nor, for what it's worth to him or her, is the route Torque tonight has taken. But for 18-22 year olds (+ 5 years even) to be coming straight out of their FTO and deliberately applying immediately to Ryanair because they can't be bothered to wait, they can't be bothered to earn and they know that they can get the money easily to fund their training with a few tugs on the old heart strings is just deplorable and is definately ruinous to our industry. And I hate to break it to anyone, but it is what most who join Ryanair do. That's why the effect has been so large - it is undeniable. Just look at Oxfords placement figures into the company. Just look at the level of intelligence from some of the earlier posters on this thread. They are an embarrassment to you and your company MikeHotel, hence the reason you don't wish to be tarred with the same brush.

All of this aside, it is good to see a healthy, reasoned, calm and mannerly debate going on.

I maintain, Ryanair shouldn't be the answer that most FTO leavers come to and certainly not within 2 years of leaving.

Patience is a virtue. Don't force situations.

And to quote the Joker:

'If you're good at something, never do it for free'

[blackred1443]

couldnt agree more with the beaks comments.mikehotel has presented his argument in a controlled and intelligent way.while i dont agree with all of what he said it does make a pleasant change to some of the 'spoiled brat' reactions some have posted.

it is that category/age groups impatience that i do believe is causing alot of the issues we now face as pilots.it does amuse me though when they class themselves as ryr employees,because there in lies the whole argument.they are actually employed by no one,certainly not ryr, they are contractors and with all the uncertainty that it entails.the penny hasnt quite dropped yet but with time it will.

i do hope it works out for mike hotel,its clear he has paid his way and is under no illusion about where he stands.

such is life i guess

[Mikehotel152]

Much as I still feel this thread was hijacked and the debate over Ryanair should have taken place elsewhere, it's no bad thing to discuss what TheBeak and WWW and others identify as a huge change in the aviation industry. If anything, at least readers of this thread who are considering a career with Ryanair will realise it's a difficult and personal decision which needs careful thought.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

There are precious few options out there other than Pikey's show, but do not suffer from delusion: RyanAir is the cancer of aviation. You can not make a deal with the devil and cherry pick the bits you like, i.e. expect people to sit in silence while discussing some aspects of the contract.

Some bear a larger share of the responsibility for this than others, but as has been said before by Edmund Burke: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[Obs cop]

I think MH152 has hit a very large nail on the head.

"identify as a huge change in the aviation industry"

I have no doubt that RYR have profited out of the pool of cadets willing to pay for the oppoprtunity (re: selection day) to pay for their own type rating. For RYR there is no risk in the process, but more importantly, they can cut their costs massively.

I suspect this is a small but significant part of how they keep their running costs down, and therefore their ticket prices competative.

Contracted staff only get paid when they fly therefore no wastge on annual salsries etc. Their cost cutting knows no bounds with escape instructions on seat backs, online checking, encouraging no baggage, the only cabin crew (to my knowledge) who pay for the priviledge of their training and so on.

With type rating costs being a significant if not huge cost of staffing an airline, and the ever present blinded desire of some to pay whatever it costs to get a RHS of a jet as their first job, lets not kid ourselves that other airlines are not considering similar exploits. Business managers have a primary role to keep a business working, their priority is not to maintain your terms and conditions.

Indeed there are companies who sell a worse product than RYR, selling a type rating with line training, where you pay to fly and don't have a job, contractor or otherwise at the end.

Much as I hate the way the industry is heading, I am one of those looking at RYR as a potential route because of 2 fundamental reasons. Firstly the jobs market is not flooded with lots of employers, it would appear that for a low hours pilot RYR is the only option currently. Secondly, I am middle aged, with a family, house and mortgage and thus flying instruction is so poorly paid that if there were a job, it wouldn't support my family. Don't get me wrong, I have saved and earnt every penny to pay for my training, but I can't pay my bills on £15000 per year.

As to how to pay, there are several options:

1. Bank loan - good luck in a credit crunch, and if you've already got a £70k loan, I suspect it's not going to be viable.
2. Bank of mum and dad - only for the fortunate few, and a risk to offset someone elses property on your gamble.
3. The national lottery.
4. Saving/investments - the sensible if time consuming option.

Just my thoughts,
Obs

[ei-flyer]

I have no doubt that RYR have profited out of the pool of cadets willing to pay for the oppoprtunity

Mere pocket money for FR.