BA Sponsorship
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TheBeak - why the vehemence?
Lufthansa still fully sponsor. Without the technicalities of a "guaranteed" job, there is one there at the end of the training if you pass the course and they are not in financial trouble. Surely we are all adult enough to understand that is the approximate meaning of a guaranteed job in this industry.
Lufthansa still fully sponsor. Without the technicalities of a "guaranteed" job, there is one there at the end of the training if you pass the course and they are not in financial trouble. Surely we are all adult enough to understand that is the approximate meaning of a guaranteed job in this industry.
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I am not the one who was being vehement......Well perhaps now I am! I would say this forum is full of desperate people who really want this as a career. Everyone is racking their brains trying to work out how is best to train and how to afford to train and THEN beyond that how on Earth to get a job. And then you get someone who comes on arrogantly saying that they know of at least 3 airlines who are DEFINATELY sponsoring and that they have a GUARANTEED job so what's all the fuss about. And he/she isn't even qualified yet but he/she thinks that they are an expert saying 'really believe me-I know what I am talking about' Uhhhhh no you don't fella, you sound like another arrogant 'sponsored' student who has been spun a yarn by their FTO and has believed it. I am just trying to give them an eye opener. It is the people who can't see the wood for the trees that often cause the accidents. And with regards to Lufthansa, exactly, there is a big IF there and at this current time that big IF is in full swing.
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Guys,
Questions have been asked previously about Int Vs Mod etc (I've read all the stickies) and I think the things Re-heat has said has explained fully why Integrated is preffered in BA.
Fair enough, I accept all of those things and agree with the notion - if it ain't broken, don't fix it.
However you must be able to see why I and a few others are frustrated at this. Like I said, I am probably the few that actually would love a non-jet job. So I never started my training with an ambition to sit in a jet. But if I decide to go modular, it will always be in the back of my head that senior members of aviation (Re-heat - former concorde pilot?) will sub-concioulsy look down at Mod students due to failures that have happened before.
According to Re-heat and others, the school I choose will most probably not have the right equipment, tools, teachers or discipline required, and that my planning won't be as good as integrated cadets.
Now you say that this is policy and not your opinion. Really? is this what is written in stone outside the BA low-hours recruitment office? Do you have this written on serviettes in the canteen? I haven't seen this written on the website.
So this is obviously your take on things, something you believe in. Like I said, with a thousand-odd posts and a name like re-heat, I guess you are pretty high up which means if you believe this, then your peers will too.
Like I said, give me a prop over a jet any day of the week. I am lucky, but other mods out there would have sacrificed life and soul, just for the one hour flying they get at weekends. Can you imagine how they must feel reading what you wrote?
Sure at a Flybe interview they would say "Ooh yes, a Dash 8 I really want to fly that. I've always liked those type of planes". But the fact is the poster on their bedroom wall wasn't a dash-8, it was probably a 747 or a BA concorde. And now after all that hard work they have put in compared to an integrated cadet's parents who have ransomed their nice semi-their national airline due to past experience will consider their training to be of a lower quality - and hence the pilot will be of a lower quality.
Questions have been asked previously about Int Vs Mod etc (I've read all the stickies) and I think the things Re-heat has said has explained fully why Integrated is preffered in BA.
Fair enough, I accept all of those things and agree with the notion - if it ain't broken, don't fix it.
However you must be able to see why I and a few others are frustrated at this. Like I said, I am probably the few that actually would love a non-jet job. So I never started my training with an ambition to sit in a jet. But if I decide to go modular, it will always be in the back of my head that senior members of aviation (Re-heat - former concorde pilot?) will sub-concioulsy look down at Mod students due to failures that have happened before.
According to Re-heat and others, the school I choose will most probably not have the right equipment, tools, teachers or discipline required, and that my planning won't be as good as integrated cadets.
Now you say that this is policy and not your opinion. Really? is this what is written in stone outside the BA low-hours recruitment office? Do you have this written on serviettes in the canteen? I haven't seen this written on the website.
So this is obviously your take on things, something you believe in. Like I said, with a thousand-odd posts and a name like re-heat, I guess you are pretty high up which means if you believe this, then your peers will too.
Like I said, give me a prop over a jet any day of the week. I am lucky, but other mods out there would have sacrificed life and soul, just for the one hour flying they get at weekends. Can you imagine how they must feel reading what you wrote?
Sure at a Flybe interview they would say "Ooh yes, a Dash 8 I really want to fly that. I've always liked those type of planes". But the fact is the poster on their bedroom wall wasn't a dash-8, it was probably a 747 or a BA concorde. And now after all that hard work they have put in compared to an integrated cadet's parents who have ransomed their nice semi-their national airline due to past experience will consider their training to be of a lower quality - and hence the pilot will be of a lower quality.
Last edited by skyhighbird; 16th Mar 2009 at 19:02.
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The difference with going integrated is:
-SOPs from the start
-the monitoring of training and continuous progress tests prevents bad habits and bad habits are hard (and expensive) to break.
-structure and progression from the start.
-The use of things like AIPs and Tech Logs which I am sure alot of Modular people who go and hire a 152 in Florida do not use properly or even touch.
- All the bits in between the licences and ratings.
-Continuity of instructors.
-A final report which is almost like an indemnity to the airline should anything go wrong in their training with the airline.
However if you do a PPL, ATPLs, and then join a proper modular course like OAA, FTE, BCFT, PAT etc. then there isn't really any difference apart from the cost.
-SOPs from the start
-the monitoring of training and continuous progress tests prevents bad habits and bad habits are hard (and expensive) to break.
-structure and progression from the start.
-The use of things like AIPs and Tech Logs which I am sure alot of Modular people who go and hire a 152 in Florida do not use properly or even touch.
- All the bits in between the licences and ratings.
-Continuity of instructors.
-A final report which is almost like an indemnity to the airline should anything go wrong in their training with the airline.
However if you do a PPL, ATPLs, and then join a proper modular course like OAA, FTE, BCFT, PAT etc. then there isn't really any difference apart from the cost.
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skyhighbird.
I think you're still missing the point a little....no, it ISN'T fair that modular is the only option a lot of people have for training. It ISN'T fair that some airlines have a preference for integrated cadets. It ISN'T fair that some won't even talk to modular students with low hours.
BUT. It is the way it is and no amount of stamping of feet and lobbing of dummy is going to change that. You might not like it, but thems the rules. If you want to fly for BA straight out of flight school, then scratch modular off your list - for the time being at least.
If your ambition is to reach BA one day, then do what the hell you want - once you've got 1500 hours even the glorious flag carrier won't give a monkeys of your modular past - but you see, once you've got past 1500 hours, you're likely to have had bad habits kicked out of you by another airline and those that just shouldn't be there are unlikely TO be there.
If your information is correct, you're 23 years old and in a situation that many, many people 20 years your senior would love to be in. It's not FAIR that a 20 year old can be earning more than an airline captain with 20+ years experience - but it's the way of the world. No amount of airline captains whinging and bitching at the likes of Bob Diamond is going to change that either...
I think you're still missing the point a little....no, it ISN'T fair that modular is the only option a lot of people have for training. It ISN'T fair that some airlines have a preference for integrated cadets. It ISN'T fair that some won't even talk to modular students with low hours.
BUT. It is the way it is and no amount of stamping of feet and lobbing of dummy is going to change that. You might not like it, but thems the rules. If you want to fly for BA straight out of flight school, then scratch modular off your list - for the time being at least.
If your ambition is to reach BA one day, then do what the hell you want - once you've got 1500 hours even the glorious flag carrier won't give a monkeys of your modular past - but you see, once you've got past 1500 hours, you're likely to have had bad habits kicked out of you by another airline and those that just shouldn't be there are unlikely TO be there.
If your information is correct, you're 23 years old and in a situation that many, many people 20 years your senior would love to be in. It's not FAIR that a 20 year old can be earning more than an airline captain with 20+ years experience - but it's the way of the world. No amount of airline captains whinging and bitching at the likes of Bob Diamond is going to change that either...
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Clanger,
whenever I replied to posts, I never wanted the tone to be percieved that I was throwing toys out of a pram or stamping my feet crying that "it isn't fair". In fact whether it being fair or not didn't really come into my mind. I certainly have not missed any point.
The world is not fair and I don't expect the airline world to be any different.
But actually reading the reasons WHY they only take integrated cadets was very insulting, to me (who has no intention of a jet job but who could easily (please don't think I'm boasting) go integrated) and to other cadets out there.
I assumed (I could be totally wrong) that Re-heat with a thousand odd posts was perhaps a very high up person in BA. With a name like re-heat perhaps an ex-concorde pilot.
Either way, the things he mentioned as to why low hour mods are not taken was insulting to hear (I'd go as far as to say it was offensive), from a mod cadet POV and/or from a mod flight school.
whenever I replied to posts, I never wanted the tone to be percieved that I was throwing toys out of a pram or stamping my feet crying that "it isn't fair". In fact whether it being fair or not didn't really come into my mind. I certainly have not missed any point.
The world is not fair and I don't expect the airline world to be any different.
But actually reading the reasons WHY they only take integrated cadets was very insulting, to me (who has no intention of a jet job but who could easily (please don't think I'm boasting) go integrated) and to other cadets out there.
I assumed (I could be totally wrong) that Re-heat with a thousand odd posts was perhaps a very high up person in BA. With a name like re-heat perhaps an ex-concorde pilot.
Either way, the things he mentioned as to why low hour mods are not taken was insulting to hear (I'd go as far as to say it was offensive), from a mod cadet POV and/or from a mod flight school.
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But WHY do you find it offensive? There is nothing to take offence AT!
Put it this way, there are a hell of a lot of excellent, excellent providers of modular training, but there's also a hell of a lot of "flash 'arry's flying school, PPL for a tenner - innit" out there. So whilst some modular grads will have come from the excellent schools that provide top notch training and resources, there are also others from "flash 'arrys" who will require a LOT of extra time to adapt. And you don't have to employ too many of these to start thinking "sod this, let's just go and employ those we know about..."
Think of it in terms of your current employer - whoever that may be. Say they employed a dozen graduates from City university this year, but they turned out to be next to useless, lost millions consistently and didn't fit in, where do you think they'd look to recruit next year? I bet you anything, they won't be too quick to go back to City, although it's a very good uni.....they'll be off to Oxford and Cambridge, thanks very much. And this is a good example actually - there are many equally good universitys around the country, but Oxford or Cambridge will always get the pick of jobs.
The airlines helped shape the integrated courses. Each cadet will fly broadly the same way - the way the airlines want new pilots to handle the aircraft - because it was them that designed it. Therefore an integrated cadet is something of a known value....a mod cadet can be anywhere from flash arrys to the BFCs of this world and with standards to match.
Like it or not, a lot of mod students do base their decisions on training on cost alone. And therefore the training ISN'T consistent...because it's given by 3/4/5 different providers potentially, all of whom do things differently. With BA, it's fairly well known that they did once upon a time take some mods on, didn't get on with them and one bad apple etc etc...
Also, be a wee bit careful assuming anything from someones monniker....I got caught by that one once and got nicely flamed for it. For example, I am neither a pink, mood dwelling rodent like creature from the 70s OR 32.....
Put it this way, there are a hell of a lot of excellent, excellent providers of modular training, but there's also a hell of a lot of "flash 'arry's flying school, PPL for a tenner - innit" out there. So whilst some modular grads will have come from the excellent schools that provide top notch training and resources, there are also others from "flash 'arrys" who will require a LOT of extra time to adapt. And you don't have to employ too many of these to start thinking "sod this, let's just go and employ those we know about..."
Think of it in terms of your current employer - whoever that may be. Say they employed a dozen graduates from City university this year, but they turned out to be next to useless, lost millions consistently and didn't fit in, where do you think they'd look to recruit next year? I bet you anything, they won't be too quick to go back to City, although it's a very good uni.....they'll be off to Oxford and Cambridge, thanks very much. And this is a good example actually - there are many equally good universitys around the country, but Oxford or Cambridge will always get the pick of jobs.
The airlines helped shape the integrated courses. Each cadet will fly broadly the same way - the way the airlines want new pilots to handle the aircraft - because it was them that designed it. Therefore an integrated cadet is something of a known value....a mod cadet can be anywhere from flash arrys to the BFCs of this world and with standards to match.
Like it or not, a lot of mod students do base their decisions on training on cost alone. And therefore the training ISN'T consistent...because it's given by 3/4/5 different providers potentially, all of whom do things differently. With BA, it's fairly well known that they did once upon a time take some mods on, didn't get on with them and one bad apple etc etc...
Also, be a wee bit careful assuming anything from someones monniker....I got caught by that one once and got nicely flamed for it. For example, I am neither a pink, mood dwelling rodent like creature from the 70s OR 32.....
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Some good points Clanger, some I could discuss back to you but I think there is no point really anymore - its all kind of fruitless, plus I wouldn't have a job for much longer if I keep posting here!
One thing I will ask (probably at a later date i na separate post but please feel free to answer now)is what are these "bad habits" I keep hearing about.
It's a common response to an Int Vs Mod thread - that integrated cadets have less bad habits as it is kicked out of them pretty soon. It be good to know I guess before I start doing the serious parts of training. Be good to know what to look out for before they get into the system in the first place.
Anyway like I said, that's for another time.
One thing I will ask (probably at a later date i na separate post but please feel free to answer now)is what are these "bad habits" I keep hearing about.
It's a common response to an Int Vs Mod thread - that integrated cadets have less bad habits as it is kicked out of them pretty soon. It be good to know I guess before I start doing the serious parts of training. Be good to know what to look out for before they get into the system in the first place.
Anyway like I said, that's for another time.
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At last a bit of sense talked. But SEVENMILESUP, given that you were modular. Explain to us how all the bad habits and poor training you had was 'kicked out of you'. Clearly as we have been told here by many here that you were 'starry eyed'. You also didn't 'get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers'.
So who did you bribe to get into BA? Don't you feel any guilt that somehow or other a half trained dreamer like you is flying for British Airways?
I suggest you do the decent thing and hand in your wings at once.
So who did you bribe to get into BA? Don't you feel any guilt that somehow or other a half trained dreamer like you is flying for British Airways?
I suggest you do the decent thing and hand in your wings at once.
Its lovely that certain people who took certain training routes offer pro and con opinions.
But. I have been both a Modular and an Integrated flying instructor and have worked at small, medium and the very large schools. I tell you now, the quality of instructing is best outside of the sausage factories and away from the tiddlers. Like so many things in life the sweet spot is found around halfway up the price/prestige/size curve.
What suits you, your timing, budget and situation is for you to know. What suits the hiring market varies violently.
But my opinion, if you want aircraft availabilty, instructor continuity, advantageous airfields and good confident personal training then your money ain't best spent at the largest schools. Wannabes often mistake volume for quality. So they buy the Ford and ignore the Lotus. One gives you so much more bang for your buck and added fun..
Nobody every listens though.
WWW
But. I have been both a Modular and an Integrated flying instructor and have worked at small, medium and the very large schools. I tell you now, the quality of instructing is best outside of the sausage factories and away from the tiddlers. Like so many things in life the sweet spot is found around halfway up the price/prestige/size curve.
What suits you, your timing, budget and situation is for you to know. What suits the hiring market varies violently.
But my opinion, if you want aircraft availabilty, instructor continuity, advantageous airfields and good confident personal training then your money ain't best spent at the largest schools. Wannabes often mistake volume for quality. So they buy the Ford and ignore the Lotus. One gives you so much more bang for your buck and added fun..
Nobody every listens though.
WWW
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People don't listen WWW cos wannabes, rightly or wrongly, aren't primarily concerned about aircraft availabilty, personal training etc when choosing a training provider. They care about landing a job in the right hand seat of a jet - and integrated schools offer the best opportunity of achieving this by far.
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I'm not saying that an integrated course is better than a modular course - in some respects I think modular makes you a more rounded and better pilot.
But like it or not, airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right, but its the way it is.
"Let Battle Commence!!!!"........embarrassing.
But like it or not, airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right, but its the way it is.
"Let Battle Commence!!!!"........embarrassing.
Yes - but you've clearly never worked for an employer that won't touch Integrated graduates with a barge pole. I have.
The wider point is that during a lengthy period of NO HIRING it doesn't matter which route you took. All that matters is how long you can afford to stay in the game. Which depends on your debt levels. Which hands the advantage to Modular followers who spent less to start with or spread training spend over a longer time, perhaps whilst still earning.
Strategic, not tactical arguments.
WWW
The wider point is that during a lengthy period of NO HIRING it doesn't matter which route you took. All that matters is how long you can afford to stay in the game. Which depends on your debt levels. Which hands the advantage to Modular followers who spent less to start with or spread training spend over a longer time, perhaps whilst still earning.
Strategic, not tactical arguments.
WWW
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But like it or not, airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right
You have more chance of getting knocked back for a job because you have ginger hair than you do for where you have trained.
All the "the industry works this way" rules are out the window just now.
On another thread someone from BA mentioned that BA had a course of mod grads that all failed for reasons they wern't going into. The chances that 10-15 pilots would all fail a type rating course are small to remote. There is a huge political behind the scenes method to there madness with this policy. Which could come down to personal view or elitism for corporate image.
I would like to see some some personal experience with all this airlines take more integrated.
Personally I have flown with some 20-30 low houred FO's in the last 3 years 2 of which were Integrated trained. When I trained as an FO out of the 15 that were hired the same time as me 1 was integrated. And looking at the OAT site over the next 3 years the company hired 4 from them. And at the time they were running type rating courses with 10 on every 2 months.
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airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right, but its the way it is.
air_wolf,
With what authority can you come to this ground breaking declaration?
(BA asides as we know they prefer low hr ints)
air_wolf,
With what authority can you come to this ground breaking declaration?
(BA asides as we know they prefer low hr ints)
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From pilotjobsnetwork.com:
AerLingus:
Integrated with A320 MCC do well. Oxford or Jerez. Modulars not doing well in recruitment unless with A320 MCC.
Thomas Cook:
2008/09 cadets from CTC (A320), Alteon scheme (A320) and Oxford (B757); family and relatives scheme(a320). Summer contracts initially offered but most have been made permanent this year.
Thomson:
Taken with minimum hours, sometimes Type Rating with hours on type specified. 2 good A-Levels required. CTC cadet scheme often route for low-hour new joiners.
Flybe:
For low hour first officers stated preference is for "one-stop" modular or integrated students. Mixed ages and experience levels at recent interviews. All F/O recruitment is onto the Q400.
easyjet:
Through the CTC wings program, you have to be less than 34. Recently also Ab Initio's from CAE-NLS are recruited via CAE and from Oxford recruited via GECAT. Accept entry up to 40.
Don't shoot the messenger......!
AerLingus:
Integrated with A320 MCC do well. Oxford or Jerez. Modulars not doing well in recruitment unless with A320 MCC.
Thomas Cook:
2008/09 cadets from CTC (A320), Alteon scheme (A320) and Oxford (B757); family and relatives scheme(a320). Summer contracts initially offered but most have been made permanent this year.
Thomson:
Taken with minimum hours, sometimes Type Rating with hours on type specified. 2 good A-Levels required. CTC cadet scheme often route for low-hour new joiners.
Flybe:
For low hour first officers stated preference is for "one-stop" modular or integrated students. Mixed ages and experience levels at recent interviews. All F/O recruitment is onto the Q400.
easyjet:
Through the CTC wings program, you have to be less than 34. Recently also Ab Initio's from CAE-NLS are recruited via CAE and from Oxford recruited via GECAT. Accept entry up to 40.
Don't shoot the messenger......!
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I think there's a misunderstanding - or more precisely an inability to read what I've actually written - amongst some, where those persons believe that I THINK that integrated is better than mod, that I THINK modular are poorly trained etc. I don't. At all. I think integrated training is A way forward. And as with all such things, each way has it's own benefits and drawbacks.
For reference my point about "having the bad habits kicked out" wasn't intended to imply that ALL modular students have (or had) bad habits, it was simply to imply that by the time that magic 1500 hours is reached, pretty much anyone will be flying the way their airline wants them to, so the whole mod/int thing from that point on - and forever more for that person - is academic. Either that, or they will have been binned for not being up to scratch (regardless of training route)
Corsair, not the first time you and I have locked horns, but you must have had to REALLY try to misinterpret a pretty simple post that badly. But given you clearly think I'm talking crap, then might I suggest you have a go at INTELLIGENTLY illustrating the reasoning for BAs preference on low hours? I rather suspect that you can't do it any differently. I rather suspect that your illustration will involve criticising BA for having said policy, not illustrating any reasons (whether those are good/bad/indifferent, right or wrong) why it is there in the first place.
My point, was simply that one bad experience in any walk of life does tend to put one of the mind that "all similar experiences would have the same outcome". Think in terms of a bad meal at a restaurant you've only been to once....you probably wouldn't bother going back. But a bad meal at your favourite restaurant you laugh off as a "one off".
FWIW, I think WWW is pretty much spot on. Tactical training is required right now, and that does mean modular and as cheap as you can.....although just to muddy the waters a little, right now the only game in town is Ryanair and they seem to be interviewing in the ratio of 70/30 integrated/modular [RIGHT NOW] - based on relayed experience of about 12-15 recent assessment days. But it would be disingenuous to suggest to anyone contemplating their training right now that they should start an integrated course, purely on the chance that this statistic would remain as it is for the fifteen months until they emerge.
For reference my point about "having the bad habits kicked out" wasn't intended to imply that ALL modular students have (or had) bad habits, it was simply to imply that by the time that magic 1500 hours is reached, pretty much anyone will be flying the way their airline wants them to, so the whole mod/int thing from that point on - and forever more for that person - is academic. Either that, or they will have been binned for not being up to scratch (regardless of training route)
Corsair, not the first time you and I have locked horns, but you must have had to REALLY try to misinterpret a pretty simple post that badly. But given you clearly think I'm talking crap, then might I suggest you have a go at INTELLIGENTLY illustrating the reasoning for BAs preference on low hours? I rather suspect that you can't do it any differently. I rather suspect that your illustration will involve criticising BA for having said policy, not illustrating any reasons (whether those are good/bad/indifferent, right or wrong) why it is there in the first place.
My point, was simply that one bad experience in any walk of life does tend to put one of the mind that "all similar experiences would have the same outcome". Think in terms of a bad meal at a restaurant you've only been to once....you probably wouldn't bother going back. But a bad meal at your favourite restaurant you laugh off as a "one off".
FWIW, I think WWW is pretty much spot on. Tactical training is required right now, and that does mean modular and as cheap as you can.....although just to muddy the waters a little, right now the only game in town is Ryanair and they seem to be interviewing in the ratio of 70/30 integrated/modular [RIGHT NOW] - based on relayed experience of about 12-15 recent assessment days. But it would be disingenuous to suggest to anyone contemplating their training right now that they should start an integrated course, purely on the chance that this statistic would remain as it is for the fifteen months until they emerge.
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airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right, but its the way it is.
The UK's four biggest employers of pilots are BA, Ryanair, Easyjet and Flybe. Regarding low-hours pilots, BA will only take those from an integrated background, we know that. Easy have a well-trodden route via CTC, which presumably they are happy with.
Ryanair on he other hand couldn't care less where or how you got the licence, providing you can pay for a type rating. Flybe are more than happy to take modular candidates.
That's the big four taken care of, and for every operator that takes a small number of low-houred pilots by picking up the phone to Oxford or FTE, there's another that is perfectly happy with modular CVs (e.g. Jet2, Air Southwest, Eastern, Aurigny, etc etc).
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Ok then, "some" airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Happy?!
Back to the original question tho, think all this off-topic knicker twisting over integrated vs modular suggests that the chances of BA starting a sponsorship programme in the near future are 0. Shame, cos I think it would bring some people into flying who otherwise might not have considered doing so.
Back to the original question tho, think all this off-topic knicker twisting over integrated vs modular suggests that the chances of BA starting a sponsorship programme in the near future are 0. Shame, cos I think it would bring some people into flying who otherwise might not have considered doing so.