BA Sponsorship
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I think your missing the point. This isnt a discussion about whether it should or should not come back. WHY would there be something in the paper, unless its based purely on a rumour, if it wasnt going to happen. Surely something like that in a paper if untrue would be a pretty good way of getting sued?
As for me, im not really that fussed one way or the other. I realise its probably unlikely to come back but still.....!
As for me, im not really that fussed one way or the other. I realise its probably unlikely to come back but still.....!
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Contrary to what appears to be the general consensus here, I don't find the idea of full sponsorship schemes returning to be all that far-fetched.
Training is becoming increasingly expensive, finance is going to be a great deal harder to raise, and the industry is becoming increasingly less attractive to prospective candidates.
Given that in the medium to long term, airlines will need to recruit once more, those airlines who do not generally attract their pilots from other airlines will therefore have to consider exactly where they intend to get their pilots from. Fully sponsored schemes may very well be the answer.
If you think I'm talking total cr@p, take a look at the situation the Aussie regional Rex found themselves in prior to the credit crunch.
As for BA, well, maybe they will, maybe they won't. Provided they continue to be able to maintain their relative position to the competition with regard to T+Cs, fleet variety and route structure, then they may just be an attractive enough proposition to satisfy their pilot needs through recruitment from other airlines. If they have a need for low hours guys, then if conditions are such that insufficient numbers are entering training who meet the criteria for employment at BA, then they too will have to consider sponsorship.
The rest of the discussion above is somewhat pointless. If you don't like the way BA or any other airline do business, then it's quite simple - don't apply to join them. I don't, so I didn't and I have no hang up about it one way or another. I have nothing against the airline or the people in it (I trained alongside the last BA sponsored course and the majority were a good bunch), it just isn't my cup of tea, so I went elsewhere and I'm perfectly happy with that choice. I suggest you all do the same.
Training is becoming increasingly expensive, finance is going to be a great deal harder to raise, and the industry is becoming increasingly less attractive to prospective candidates.
Given that in the medium to long term, airlines will need to recruit once more, those airlines who do not generally attract their pilots from other airlines will therefore have to consider exactly where they intend to get their pilots from. Fully sponsored schemes may very well be the answer.
If you think I'm talking total cr@p, take a look at the situation the Aussie regional Rex found themselves in prior to the credit crunch.
As for BA, well, maybe they will, maybe they won't. Provided they continue to be able to maintain their relative position to the competition with regard to T+Cs, fleet variety and route structure, then they may just be an attractive enough proposition to satisfy their pilot needs through recruitment from other airlines. If they have a need for low hours guys, then if conditions are such that insufficient numbers are entering training who meet the criteria for employment at BA, then they too will have to consider sponsorship.
The rest of the discussion above is somewhat pointless. If you don't like the way BA or any other airline do business, then it's quite simple - don't apply to join them. I don't, so I didn't and I have no hang up about it one way or another. I have nothing against the airline or the people in it (I trained alongside the last BA sponsored course and the majority were a good bunch), it just isn't my cup of tea, so I went elsewhere and I'm perfectly happy with that choice. I suggest you all do the same.
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It's not a policy of my design. Don't shoot the messenger.
Re-heat,
you may just be the messenger but you explain so eloquently the BA mission statement for recruitment of integrated cadets with such swagger and arrogance that probably everything you said insulted every low hour mod out there. And your writing gives the impression that you are actually proud of the reasons behind the policy. Only integrated students PLAN their training? Wow.
Anyway. What I will do is apologise for taking this thread on a tangent. It was not intended. However it has been very valueable to read the truth.
Re-heat,
you may just be the messenger but you explain so eloquently the BA mission statement for recruitment of integrated cadets with such swagger and arrogance that probably everything you said insulted every low hour mod out there. And your writing gives the impression that you are actually proud of the reasons behind the policy. Only integrated students PLAN their training? Wow.
Anyway. What I will do is apologise for taking this thread on a tangent. It was not intended. However it has been very valueable to read the truth.
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You missed the point. It is an explanation of why, regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter.
The reasoning would be - one could plan all they like to do modular training through one school, but (with the exception of old CTC, or modular courses attached to Oxford or Jerez), you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers.
Now, we all know that in this day and age, you can indeed get adequate training through Bristol, walk off to do a very robust training course at Exeter, and be in a great position. Simply put, in the late 80s / early 90s, the system was different, and BA had some incredibly negative experiences.
However, the powers that be want to maintain their present policy - they have yet to experience low-hour modular chaps (apart from the aforementioned minority) who have succeeded.
I would find it far more insulting to have this information hidden from me until the day I applied to BA, rather than - as is the case - them being very upfront that they do not consider low-hour modular people at the moment.
At least then, as a wannabe, I can make an informed choice.
For what it is worth, I think Otto is probably right.
I'm not going to reply again on this thread - I have tried to assist with some very independent and informative advice. I really won't bother if people are going to dig into my motivations for doing so. This is an anonymous forum for a reason.
The reasoning would be - one could plan all they like to do modular training through one school, but (with the exception of old CTC, or modular courses attached to Oxford or Jerez), you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers.
Now, we all know that in this day and age, you can indeed get adequate training through Bristol, walk off to do a very robust training course at Exeter, and be in a great position. Simply put, in the late 80s / early 90s, the system was different, and BA had some incredibly negative experiences.
However, the powers that be want to maintain their present policy - they have yet to experience low-hour modular chaps (apart from the aforementioned minority) who have succeeded.
I would find it far more insulting to have this information hidden from me until the day I applied to BA, rather than - as is the case - them being very upfront that they do not consider low-hour modular people at the moment.
At least then, as a wannabe, I can make an informed choice.
For what it is worth, I think Otto is probably right.
I'm not going to reply again on this thread - I have tried to assist with some very independent and informative advice. I really won't bother if people are going to dig into my motivations for doing so. This is an anonymous forum for a reason.
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My opinion for what it's worth is that airlines will no longer sponsor cadets. The bottom line is all important even for BA. It's fantasy to think otherwise. Times have changed. If and when BA select cadets again, the trainees will pay for their own training. The precedent has been set and is quite successful.
Re-heat with all due respect and I really do not want go down the ad hominen route but if you are a wannabee you have some serious illusions about the flight training business.
Where are you getting this stuff from? Do you have any idea what you're talking about other than repeating some guff you've been fed from somebody or other with an opinion?
It's total bollicks. Sure it's possible to point to some flight schools that have a spotty record with students. Frankly I've met some integrated trained pilots who have been ripped off. Because they can't fly properly.
It's one thing for BA to have some sort of absurd attitude the modular pilots are somehow second rate and not worthy of consideration. It's quite another to actually believe it.
I suspect you have never been through the training process modular or integrated and are just repeating stuff you heard. Most of the time there is no fundamental difference in training integrated or modular. In an ideal world everyone would do an integrated course. This isn't an ideal world and people have to work their ambitions around their real lives. Hence the need for modular courses.
Re-heat with all due respect and I really do not want go down the ad hominen route but if you are a wannabee you have some serious illusions about the flight training business.
you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers.
It's total bollicks. Sure it's possible to point to some flight schools that have a spotty record with students. Frankly I've met some integrated trained pilots who have been ripped off. Because they can't fly properly.
It's one thing for BA to have some sort of absurd attitude the modular pilots are somehow second rate and not worthy of consideration. It's quite another to actually believe it.
I suspect you have never been through the training process modular or integrated and are just repeating stuff you heard. Most of the time there is no fundamental difference in training integrated or modular. In an ideal world everyone would do an integrated course. This isn't an ideal world and people have to work their ambitions around their real lives. Hence the need for modular courses.
you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers.
However, going to certain schools does help to get into certain airlines at certain times. Those times are gone and not coming back anytime soon.
There is now one golden rule and one silver rule: minimize your debt & go slowly.
Modular wins.
WWW
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you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers.
Wow. This just gets better and better
It is probably best you don't respond anymore. Because each thing you say gets more and more insulting that the hole you have dug is something you could never escape from.
Wow. This just gets better and better
It is probably best you don't respond anymore. Because each thing you say gets more and more insulting that the hole you have dug is something you could never escape from.
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I am explaining their past reasoning, not my opinion.
AH - as you clearly know, since you yourself came from another airline, modular is irrelevant as a DEP. We are talking about low-hour cadets.
Corsair - I am not a wannabe, and you are far too sensitive. Take some perspective. If you had read my post, it would be quite clear to you that I personally do not believe in BA's modular restriction to some extent.
skyhighbird - as far as I understand, you don't actually yet have experience of the professional flight training market. Some modular training that people devise for themselves can be utterly terrible if they don't think about what they are doing. Some smaller schools can indeed rip you off entirely with no support network, poor continuity. Some are also fantastic. Take it as an education - not as an insult about something that you don't have any reason to be insulted about.
And for christ's sake, take WWW's advice in this market. This whole thread is completely irrelevant as BA are not hiring. I only got involved to counter some of the complete tripe on here, and yet it continues.
If you are going to post, have a read of the lot first, and realise that this is not my opinion but a statement of past fact on how BA recruited.
AH - as you clearly know, since you yourself came from another airline, modular is irrelevant as a DEP. We are talking about low-hour cadets.
Corsair - I am not a wannabe, and you are far too sensitive. Take some perspective. If you had read my post, it would be quite clear to you that I personally do not believe in BA's modular restriction to some extent.
skyhighbird - as far as I understand, you don't actually yet have experience of the professional flight training market. Some modular training that people devise for themselves can be utterly terrible if they don't think about what they are doing. Some smaller schools can indeed rip you off entirely with no support network, poor continuity. Some are also fantastic. Take it as an education - not as an insult about something that you don't have any reason to be insulted about.
And for christ's sake, take WWW's advice in this market. This whole thread is completely irrelevant as BA are not hiring. I only got involved to counter some of the complete tripe on here, and yet it continues.
If you are going to post, have a read of the lot first, and realise that this is not my opinion but a statement of past fact on how BA recruited.
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I believe what re-heat was saying - and I actually can't quite see how anyone else is failing to comprehend this, perhaps READING all of his post before getting in an indignant rage and posting a reply might help - is that in times gone by it has been considered by some that the modular courses had sub-standard texts and course materials. I.E. this is a statement of how it was perceived [by a perhaps only a subset] historically. I don't believe that this is a statement of how Re-heat perceives modular training to be right now.
In fairness to re-heat, (s)he even goes on to say that this is clearly not the case any more and anyone with their licence knows that there are some excellent modular schools out there.
However, this doesn't change the opinion of those that are of such an opinion in the first place. Which brings us back to the original point of BAs recruitment policy. Perhaps in time it will change.
One other point. Generally speaking there is some form of vetting process to get into an integrated course, whereas there is not for modular. I am NOT going to enter into whether those entry tests are worth the electricity they use - it is true to say that undoubtedly they could be more 'selective'. The point is merely that they do have some selection. The ONLY selection criteria for modular is whether you can meet the requirements for a class 1 and if you have the money to pursue it to the bitter end.
It may well be that this is another contributing factor...99.99% of all the modular students I met were absolutely brilliant people, intelligent and very talented....but there are a couple of notables who stick out. You wouldn't have to employ too many of these (like the one who on partialling his CPL at the third attempt was celebrating 'passing' it wildly, not understanding that he HADN'T) before thinking there might be another way...
I should add, given that no-one appears to be in a "read it and try and understand what the author is saying" mood, that this IS NOT to say integrated is better. It's different and offers different pro's and con's is all.
I shall now await the flaming....*sigh*....another problem of pilots...every man Jack of us thinks they have to be the alpha male in the room...
In fairness to re-heat, (s)he even goes on to say that this is clearly not the case any more and anyone with their licence knows that there are some excellent modular schools out there.
However, this doesn't change the opinion of those that are of such an opinion in the first place. Which brings us back to the original point of BAs recruitment policy. Perhaps in time it will change.
One other point. Generally speaking there is some form of vetting process to get into an integrated course, whereas there is not for modular. I am NOT going to enter into whether those entry tests are worth the electricity they use - it is true to say that undoubtedly they could be more 'selective'. The point is merely that they do have some selection. The ONLY selection criteria for modular is whether you can meet the requirements for a class 1 and if you have the money to pursue it to the bitter end.
It may well be that this is another contributing factor...99.99% of all the modular students I met were absolutely brilliant people, intelligent and very talented....but there are a couple of notables who stick out. You wouldn't have to employ too many of these (like the one who on partialling his CPL at the third attempt was celebrating 'passing' it wildly, not understanding that he HADN'T) before thinking there might be another way...
I should add, given that no-one appears to be in a "read it and try and understand what the author is saying" mood, that this IS NOT to say integrated is better. It's different and offers different pro's and con's is all.
I shall now await the flaming....*sigh*....another problem of pilots...every man Jack of us thinks they have to be the alpha male in the room...
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I think Wobble2plank killed the arguement with extreme success....
Guys just read what he/she wrote,simple and straight to the point!
You are under ilusions and is a complete fantasy that an airline in the situation that BA is at the moment,would start such project.
They would Ps off alot of crew,engineers,ground staff,unions,specially with the plan,for example,to save up to £82millions pounds from IFCE....
"so,lets save all that cash,in every sector,or even better,let's suck the blood of the majority of our work force,make them save for us,meantime we keep our wages unaffected,and ,by the way,lets do a cadet programme"....tutut,does this make sense?
I would not waste my time on this...
Guys just read what he/she wrote,simple and straight to the point!
You are under ilusions and is a complete fantasy that an airline in the situation that BA is at the moment,would start such project.
They would P
s off alot of crew,engineers,ground staff,unions,specially with the plan,for example,to save up to £82millions pounds from IFCE...."so,lets save all that cash,in every sector,or even better,let's suck the blood of the majority of our work force,make them save for us,meantime we keep our wages unaffected,and ,by the way,lets do a cadet programme"....tutut,does this make sense?
I would not waste my time on this...
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Reheat is spot on with his objective look at the reasons behind the recruitment policy. Leave emotion out of it, this is business. End of story. If it aint broke then why fix it? If BA's recruitment policy works for them, why would they change it? If in the future they find it isn't working, then maybe they will change it, and maybe they would take modular people. Until then, they won't.
I think a lot of wannabe's perception of who the best airline's to work for is naive - mine was when I was a wanabee. bmi / Virgin / BA / EZY all have broadly similar cultures and people working for them, they all just offer different rewards, opportunities and different types of flying. It's all very well saying you don't want to fly a jet till you're 40 but most people are realists and have to compromise their dreams to fit in with wives, children, mortgages etc. The best advice is get to the company that provides the best career opportunities, the widest variety of flying, the best rewards, the most secure future, and the lifestyle that suits you. The younger you are, the more choice you have, as this starts to narrow due to seniority. Trying to find a company where you respect their ideals or philosophy is b*****cks. They're all broadly the same and are all run by fairly ruthless business realities. You are a comodity and they will get as much out of you as the market rate allows. Unfortunately the industry is currently in a race to the bottom in terms of terms and conditions and the latest downturn is just the latest example of this.
I think a lot of wannabe's perception of who the best airline's to work for is naive - mine was when I was a wanabee. bmi / Virgin / BA / EZY all have broadly similar cultures and people working for them, they all just offer different rewards, opportunities and different types of flying. It's all very well saying you don't want to fly a jet till you're 40 but most people are realists and have to compromise their dreams to fit in with wives, children, mortgages etc. The best advice is get to the company that provides the best career opportunities, the widest variety of flying, the best rewards, the most secure future, and the lifestyle that suits you. The younger you are, the more choice you have, as this starts to narrow due to seniority. Trying to find a company where you respect their ideals or philosophy is b*****cks. They're all broadly the same and are all run by fairly ruthless business realities. You are a comodity and they will get as much out of you as the market rate allows. Unfortunately the industry is currently in a race to the bottom in terms of terms and conditions and the latest downturn is just the latest example of this.
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Trying to find a company where you respect their ideals or philosophy is b*****cks. They're all broadly the same and are all run by fairly ruthless business realities.
Whether or not you are devoted to getting into BA or whoever, it doesn't matter. It's just another job at the end of the day. Except that in BA you'll have to wait that much longer to get command.
Take the first job you're offered because it may be the only job you're offered.
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To say you really know what you are saying so vehemently you really need to back up your position. What is the position that you hold that makes you such an expert? A GUARANTEED job huh? Until how recently? Your figures sound like those quoted by CTC (i.e. the 3-4% pass rate). So how are you qualified to give such great advice?
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Then you wont mind sharing which FTO you are at and with which airline......you are already on and already GUARANTEED A JOB after all so you wont mind sharing......In what way is your training part sponsored? I would be very, very surprised if you are guaranteed a job and I think you might be very, very surprised when you finally qualify......
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Really, the level of sarcasm and sneer can be too much on this forum. I've decided to remove my previous comments about European part-sponsored training actually in existence.
TheBeak, with selection pass rates of 3-4% and the few airlines offering part-sponsored training, don't you think that giving out details such as FTO, airline and other details will hinder my anonymity?? I'd have to be daft to post such data on a public forum if I want to remain anonymous.
And yes, the job is guaranteed. No 'nasty surprises' as you are trying to imply.
To the other readers, some of you may choose to believe in what I'm saying; the majority would probably do their best to prove my words worthless for whatever twisted reasons they may have. It's your call.
TheBeak, with selection pass rates of 3-4% and the few airlines offering part-sponsored training, don't you think that giving out details such as FTO, airline and other details will hinder my anonymity?? I'd have to be daft to post such data on a public forum if I want to remain anonymous.
And yes, the job is guaranteed. No 'nasty surprises' as you are trying to imply.
To the other readers, some of you may choose to believe in what I'm saying; the majority would probably do their best to prove my words worthless for whatever twisted reasons they may have. It's your call.
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I doubt VERY much that it is guarnateed......The only people I have heard say that are the Cityjet guys who were out in S.A. ......so that narrows you down
......Though you may think otherwise I doubt anyone really cares who you are. I am not being sarcastic nor sneer, I am merely telling you that I know of a fair few people who though they were sponsored and guaranteed a job and......BLAMO - no job. I bet there will be clauses with your guarantee and I bet they didn't expect the econonmy and market to go like it has done. I am sorry if it feels like I have tried to shoot you down but optimists often feel that way when told the truth. Come on agent.oen don't get wound up, after all you have a guaranteed job on the way.
......Though you may think otherwise I doubt anyone really cares who you are. I am not being sarcastic nor sneer, I am merely telling you that I know of a fair few people who though they were sponsored and guaranteed a job and......BLAMO - no job. I bet there will be clauses with your guarantee and I bet they didn't expect the econonmy and market to go like it has done. I am sorry if it feels like I have tried to shoot you down but optimists often feel that way when told the truth. Come on agent.oen don't get wound up, after all you have a guaranteed job on the way.
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There are not guaranteed jobs even with full sponsorship. Aer Lingus came close to it, though. Their last batch of sponsored cadets found there were no jobs for them after finishing their training in Spain. But to fair to Aer Lingus when they were recruiting again. They gave the cadets first refusal. Which is decent of them.
What was interesting and gives an insight to the type of people who go for sponsorships. Several had quit flying despite having the best training someone else's money could buy. Makes you wonder about their motivation for becoming a pilot in the first place.
Aer Lingus are like BA in their fussiness about pilot selection and are known for their preference in selecting integrated over modular pilots to the extent that they will recruit non nationals over Irish. Which for a small country's 'flag carrier' is unusual. But to be fair they have taken modular pilots.
They even put their direct entry, experienced pilots through the same aptitude tests as cadets.
What was interesting and gives an insight to the type of people who go for sponsorships. Several had quit flying despite having the best training someone else's money could buy. Makes you wonder about their motivation for becoming a pilot in the first place.
Aer Lingus are like BA in their fussiness about pilot selection and are known for their preference in selecting integrated over modular pilots to the extent that they will recruit non nationals over Irish. Which for a small country's 'flag carrier' is unusual. But to be fair they have taken modular pilots.
They even put their direct entry, experienced pilots through the same aptitude tests as cadets.