What's it like when the airline industry is booming?
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What's it like when the airline industry is booming?
I'm at a stage now where I'm weighing up the options, risk, debt, job prospects etc.. in the coming 18/24 months in an attempt to begin training on an integrated course at "the right time" - the $64billion decision.
I'm not wearing tinted glasses and planning to begin training until at least Jan/March 2010 becuase the risk is simply to high.. I have a friend on the CTC wings scheme who was due to finish and be in employment by now but due to recent developments economically, his training schedule has slowed down and he won't be in the pool until possibly March 2009; and then swimming for what could be a long time!
The more I research and read about the airline industry, the more I understand how its a cycle of ups and downs..
My question to the guys and girls who've experienced both ups and downs, just what is the industry like when it's booming?
- Are there airline recruitment people waiting outside the gates of flight schools to mop up newly IR qualified pilots?
- Does it become easier to move companies i.e. once you've reached 2500 hrs on an A319 for EZY do you become very employable for the likes of BA, Virgin etc...?
- Is there more competition between the airlines to raise levels of T&C's and salaries to encourage employees to stay with the company?
- We're seeing holding pools growing by the month at the moment, when the industry is growing how long can you expect to be in a holdpool for if at all?
You get the idea..
All answers appreciated.
I'm not wearing tinted glasses and planning to begin training until at least Jan/March 2010 becuase the risk is simply to high.. I have a friend on the CTC wings scheme who was due to finish and be in employment by now but due to recent developments economically, his training schedule has slowed down and he won't be in the pool until possibly March 2009; and then swimming for what could be a long time!
The more I research and read about the airline industry, the more I understand how its a cycle of ups and downs..
My question to the guys and girls who've experienced both ups and downs, just what is the industry like when it's booming?
- Are there airline recruitment people waiting outside the gates of flight schools to mop up newly IR qualified pilots?
- Does it become easier to move companies i.e. once you've reached 2500 hrs on an A319 for EZY do you become very employable for the likes of BA, Virgin etc...?
- Is there more competition between the airlines to raise levels of T&C's and salaries to encourage employees to stay with the company?
- We're seeing holding pools growing by the month at the moment, when the industry is growing how long can you expect to be in a holdpool for if at all?
You get the idea..
All answers appreciated.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
It was booming about 18 months ago.
While companies weren't calling the training providers, it wasn't far off that.
Yes, movement between companies is a lot easier. Especially if the one you're going for doesn't have a seniority list and you're already a captain on similar equipment.
T&Cs do move upwards a smidge*, but right now T&Cs are under threat and it really doesn't help current employees if folks offer to pay for training/line training.
*depending on where you are in the world and how much the airline is suffering from a lack of crew, the bonus/incentive to stay will be quite high. Note, it's rarely a significant increase to your salary. Often the company will put in a rider about it being payable in 2-3 years time if you stay. The company is of course hoping that there'll be a downturn and that offer will some how have to go to "save costs"...
While companies weren't calling the training providers, it wasn't far off that.
Yes, movement between companies is a lot easier. Especially if the one you're going for doesn't have a seniority list and you're already a captain on similar equipment.
T&Cs do move upwards a smidge*, but right now T&Cs are under threat and it really doesn't help current employees if folks offer to pay for training/line training.
*depending on where you are in the world and how much the airline is suffering from a lack of crew, the bonus/incentive to stay will be quite high. Note, it's rarely a significant increase to your salary. Often the company will put in a rider about it being payable in 2-3 years time if you stay. The company is of course hoping that there'll be a downturn and that offer will some how have to go to "save costs"...
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I'm in the same boat, as are hundreds of others.
Watching this thread closely, the usual doom and gloom and 'beware' threads by the grim reapers are blowing my motivation to bits at the mo!
Watching this thread closely, the usual doom and gloom and 'beware' threads by the grim reapers are blowing my motivation to bits at the mo!
Last edited by DB777; 23rd Oct 2008 at 15:30.
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same same here, I began my PPL just a few months ago and have slammed the brakes on, will still continue to work and complete PPL, until such a time as it looks half decent to progress to the commercial side of training, at the moment I'm watching my life ambition of becoming a pilot going down the drain, will continue to work and fly and complete PPL, hopefully the cyclic upturn will occur once again!
The positive comments above about the good times lift my spirit though
The positive comments above about the good times lift my spirit though
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Doom, gloom and beware thread...
Do you think I like to see you guys flipping hamburgers at McDonald's with a fATPL in your pocket...?
Or blowing 75,000 quids and see your parents selling their house for it...?
xxx
Instead of watching the airline industry, there are other things to do...
Learn to read the Footsie, the CAC40, the DAX, the Bovespa, the Merval or the Dow Jones Average.
Should be the first education for a wanabee pilot, instead of studying altimetry.
For the recent weeks, all is going to hell... Will be years before it gets better.
Stop reading Flight Magazine, instead, subscribe to the Wall Street Journal.
xxx
Good luck to you all.
Happy contrails
Or blowing 75,000 quids and see your parents selling their house for it...?
xxx
Instead of watching the airline industry, there are other things to do...
Learn to read the Footsie, the CAC40, the DAX, the Bovespa, the Merval or the Dow Jones Average.
Should be the first education for a wanabee pilot, instead of studying altimetry.
For the recent weeks, all is going to hell... Will be years before it gets better.
Stop reading Flight Magazine, instead, subscribe to the Wall Street Journal.
xxx
Good luck to you all.
Happy contrails
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The boom times are a bit mythical, to be honest. In a few years I'm sure the story will be that anyone who got an IR got offered a job, but it is simply not the case. The last boom arguably saw some airlines taking people from a very restricted source, such as CTC. Certainly, Easy Jet was off limits for anyone who did not come out of CTC. Monarch, Thomas Cook, First Choice, etc, only took CTC cadets.
For those who went to other schools, and did the modular route it was very tricky, and did not at all feel like a boom. It took me almost 18 months to get a job. I had one interview in all that time, and heard nothing else from all those applications and letters. I was fortunate to have a recommendation from my flying school. At the time it was depressing to hear of people coming out of some schools and getting interviews, just because they had gone to school x, and had never even sent out a single CV! For others I knew, they had contacts, which worked very well for the majority of them.
There were others who graduated both before and after me, who still have no airline job, many of whom have now lapsed their IR. And I'm not talking about nut-jocks with two left feet, can't fly for toffee people, but really good guys, with first time passes in everything, decent conversationalists, with very rounded outlooks, who would make very good first officers. I guess at some point, you have to realize that it is just not going to happen, and get on with your life.
So take it with a pinch of salt. For some, it was the land of milk and honey, for others a desert.
For those who went to other schools, and did the modular route it was very tricky, and did not at all feel like a boom. It took me almost 18 months to get a job. I had one interview in all that time, and heard nothing else from all those applications and letters. I was fortunate to have a recommendation from my flying school. At the time it was depressing to hear of people coming out of some schools and getting interviews, just because they had gone to school x, and had never even sent out a single CV! For others I knew, they had contacts, which worked very well for the majority of them.
There were others who graduated both before and after me, who still have no airline job, many of whom have now lapsed their IR. And I'm not talking about nut-jocks with two left feet, can't fly for toffee people, but really good guys, with first time passes in everything, decent conversationalists, with very rounded outlooks, who would make very good first officers. I guess at some point, you have to realize that it is just not going to happen, and get on with your life.
So take it with a pinch of salt. For some, it was the land of milk and honey, for others a desert.
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Guys, honestly, there is probably no 'good' time to start training for your CPL/IR. If you wait to start until the industry picks up then by the time you complete the training the industry could well be on the way down again!! When I started out it was 1994 and the industry world wide was in the toilet after the first gulf war. I fell for the line that the industry works on a 5-7 year cycle and I would be best to 'train now' for the expected up turn. I didn't risk the huge loans that are available, instead choosing to train part time whilst keeping my full time job, it took me 4 years to gain a CPL/IR but with very little debt, did I miss the upturn? certainly not!! The industry never had this much talked about upturn, I started looking for work but the industry by 1999/2000 was already on the way down again. I managed to get instructing work in late 2000 and was one year in when some bunch of plonkers flew a couple of airliners into some buildings!! Here I am now working for BA with over 6 years in the airlines and hopefully in a position to ride out the current turmoil. My advice, don't put the PPL on hold, train as you can afford to train, don't try to second guess the 'cycles' there will be another Credit Crunch, Security Scare, SAR's just around the corner to ruin the next big upturn. Regardless of this though it is always possible to pick up a bit of work, ride the wave and come out the other side and have a great career, just takes a lot of hard work, a good proportion of luck and determination.
Educated Hillbilly
Well at the end of last year iI was invited to six interviews in the space of about three months. Seemed like the plunge to a season of full time instructing had paid off, I had previoulsy instructed part time for just over a year and a half. So the boom was certainly very apparent to me.
Needless to say I didn't make the right choice when picking my first job, hence I am not flying at the moment. But I did manage to get another interview recently, which although not sucessful it was still nice to get an interview in the current climate. So in essence I have experienced the effects of both the boom and the bust in a very short space of time.
Although I enjoyed instructing, I feel that is was not the best route to have taken. Knowing what I know now, I would have opted for a self funded type rating. All my colleagues who opted for a type rating are now significantly way ahead of me in their careers now and are at least going in to a recession with significant multi crew turbine experience.
However I will agree with the above it is near inpossible to time your training to coincide with the booms or bust, because you can never tell what will happen. As said if you are single with no commitments, able to relocate anywhere then it should be possible to find flying work of some description somewhere.
Needless to say I didn't make the right choice when picking my first job, hence I am not flying at the moment. But I did manage to get another interview recently, which although not sucessful it was still nice to get an interview in the current climate. So in essence I have experienced the effects of both the boom and the bust in a very short space of time.
Although I enjoyed instructing, I feel that is was not the best route to have taken. Knowing what I know now, I would have opted for a self funded type rating. All my colleagues who opted for a type rating are now significantly way ahead of me in their careers now and are at least going in to a recession with significant multi crew turbine experience.
However I will agree with the above it is near inpossible to time your training to coincide with the booms or bust, because you can never tell what will happen. As said if you are single with no commitments, able to relocate anywhere then it should be possible to find flying work of some description somewhere.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 23rd Oct 2008 at 22:44.
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The boom times are a bit mythical, to be honest. In a few years I'm sure the story will be that anyone who got an IR got offered a job, but it is simply not the case.
Its true that if you were in the right place at the right time with the right attitude and a recommendation then having a type rating from somewhere like GECAT got your CV onto the right desk and you stood a good chance of walking into a job. Those days are long gone. Now its 500 hours on type and climbing.
There will still be jobs going but you will have to be at the top of your game to get them.
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If you have another means of incoming and can afford to pay for the training then there really is no need to slow down. If you are 20 years old with no other career to fall back on and thinking of getting a loan to fund your training then STOP FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!.
If you dont mind paying to keep current for a while then just get on and finish your training. You may even be able to negotiate some good deals with the training organisations. Im modular and will be continuing training even though i think the financial situation is going to be very bad. Im not borrowing to pay for my training and am still working and paying as i go. The $/£ rate at the moment means its cheaper to do the hours on a shared aircraft in the UK for me. There are lots of cheap shares about due to the Credit crunch etc.
The worst case is that i end up paying to keep current. Well Ill do more hours in my day job and do just that. At least when there are jobs around im ready to apply.
If you dont mind paying to keep current for a while then just get on and finish your training. You may even be able to negotiate some good deals with the training organisations. Im modular and will be continuing training even though i think the financial situation is going to be very bad. Im not borrowing to pay for my training and am still working and paying as i go. The $/£ rate at the moment means its cheaper to do the hours on a shared aircraft in the UK for me. There are lots of cheap shares about due to the Credit crunch etc.
The worst case is that i end up paying to keep current. Well Ill do more hours in my day job and do just that. At least when there are jobs around im ready to apply.
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No Sponsor, Pot Kettle,
Not sure what school you went to, but all but one of my acquaintances when I was looking for a job in the last downturn went modular, at one or more of a few small but good schools. To quote something I posted elsewhere:
The good times can be very good, if you are currently in the business and keeping up your contacts when that time comes!
Oh, and if you think that the expensive courses buy a job, I have recently had to disappoint one pilot because he did an integrated course, just when I was looking for a pilot with low experience. The modular course is just better preparation for the type of flying in our sector. Integrated courses are too specialised.
And those talking about Monarch this and Easy that, might I suggest that you look at the list on the CAA website of AOC holders? There are far more of us than any of you have ever heard of (and that isw just in the UK), and the little-known ones will probably be the ones still recruiting newbies in the downturn, as the big boys only take experienced pilots for their shrinking needs.
Not sure what school you went to, but all but one of my acquaintances when I was looking for a job in the last downturn went modular, at one or more of a few small but good schools. To quote something I posted elsewhere:
Of all the guys who went commercial I kept in touch with from starting training to getting my first public-transport job (I was an instructor in the meantime for several years in the last downturn, so knew a lot) none is now out of work.
...
When my company needed more pilots and wanted those with a personal recommendation I could only find two willing to apply and both were offered jobs here. One decided he didn't want to move .... The other was already flying commercially, and stayed in his job ...
We took on a few pilots who claimed they'd stay for a while, and found we could not keep them (even with a bond) as they were in such demand, until we managed to get some by personal recommendation who wanted to work for longer in our sector. They could have taken jobs elsewhere by now ...
...
When my company needed more pilots and wanted those with a personal recommendation I could only find two willing to apply and both were offered jobs here. One decided he didn't want to move .... The other was already flying commercially, and stayed in his job ...
We took on a few pilots who claimed they'd stay for a while, and found we could not keep them (even with a bond) as they were in such demand, until we managed to get some by personal recommendation who wanted to work for longer in our sector. They could have taken jobs elsewhere by now ...
Oh, and if you think that the expensive courses buy a job, I have recently had to disappoint one pilot because he did an integrated course, just when I was looking for a pilot with low experience. The modular course is just better preparation for the type of flying in our sector. Integrated courses are too specialised.
And those talking about Monarch this and Easy that, might I suggest that you look at the list on the CAA website of AOC holders? There are far more of us than any of you have ever heard of (and that isw just in the UK), and the little-known ones will probably be the ones still recruiting newbies in the downturn, as the big boys only take experienced pilots for their shrinking needs.
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LMS,
Where were you when I needed a job!
I applied everywhere, to the business jets, the king air jobs, even jobs in deepest darkest Africa, and I didn't even get a reply from any of them!
I just wanted to make sure the rose tinted spectacles that many wear see the reality from the hype. It was a tough market in the good times too - make no mistake about it.
I think I had an average experience and I was lucky to get a break.
Many get jobs, but many don't - I guess they don't come on here that often.
Where were you when I needed a job!
I applied everywhere, to the business jets, the king air jobs, even jobs in deepest darkest Africa, and I didn't even get a reply from any of them!
I just wanted to make sure the rose tinted spectacles that many wear see the reality from the hype. It was a tough market in the good times too - make no mistake about it.
I think I had an average experience and I was lucky to get a break.
Many get jobs, but many don't - I guess they don't come on here that often.
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There was never a boom
In reality there was never a boom, 9/11 had a massive effect on the industry and it took until at least 2007 for this to show any real signs of recovery. During this time a Massive number of people used equity release loans on overvalued property fuelled by an economy which grew whilst aviation merely recovered to pay for training on a whim, creating a surplus of low houred Pilots. The wide availability of credit to the average rookie Pilot lead to greed, debt, lower wages and the rise of self sponsored type ratings and line training. Flight numbers may have increased in these times but many operators were operating on a shoe string, constantly refinancing. The finance has now run out and airlines which should and would have gone bankrupt along time ago without this madness such as Excel are now gone. The Air is now clearing and the future is great SSTR will probably be phased out as no one will be able to get the loans resulting in a quick return to sanity. Please don't belittle these comments as they may be outspoken, but they are written from experience as I worked in the Aviation sector during these times and still do today! I'm currently training via the modular route and preparing for when operators start hiring again!
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What's it like when the airline industry is booming?
'Booming' is a relative term. I don't think finding a first job is ever easy - depending on the state of the job market at the time, it varies from tricky to nigh-on impossible. I got lucky - qualified via the modular route around a year ago, sent out maybe ten CVs and had two interviews within a couple of months (thanks to recommendations from the school). Straight into an airline job with 200 odd hours, aged 36 and without paying for a type rating. It don't get much better than that, but even so I worked bloody hard to (a) get a recommendation, and (b) get through the interview and sim ride. Most of the people I trained with are now flying commercially, although some ended up paying for type ratings in the process. Wind the clock forward a year, and most of the opportunities that we took simply aren't there any more.
The key word is 'opportunities'. Airlines won't be fighting over you during boom times, but they will be steadily recruiting. Some people will join with wet-ink CPLs, others will move on from instructing and the G.A. world, leaving vacancies to fill - the result is that given enough persistence, it is usually possible to find some sort of job somewhere - that all important first rung of the ladder.
When times are bad, airlines don't recruit in anything like the same numbers - they may have recruitment freezes or even lay people off. Some will go bust, dumping scores (possibly hundreds) of experienced jet and TP drivers onto the job market. Unfortunately that is happening right now, and I fear it is a process that is only just beginning. One doesn't need a degree in economics to work out the effect on low-hours pilots.
The key word is 'opportunities'. Airlines won't be fighting over you during boom times, but they will be steadily recruiting. Some people will join with wet-ink CPLs, others will move on from instructing and the G.A. world, leaving vacancies to fill - the result is that given enough persistence, it is usually possible to find some sort of job somewhere - that all important first rung of the ladder.
When times are bad, airlines don't recruit in anything like the same numbers - they may have recruitment freezes or even lay people off. Some will go bust, dumping scores (possibly hundreds) of experienced jet and TP drivers onto the job market. Unfortunately that is happening right now, and I fear it is a process that is only just beginning. One doesn't need a degree in economics to work out the effect on low-hours pilots.
