abusing pilots must stop
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abusing pilots must stop
Like most of my fellow pilots I choose to be a pilot because of my love of flying. That love of flying took me to the flight schools which fed me the full load of crap about how I must train in the UK, how I must do this and that and how all their students get into the airlines. I only realised how much the industry revolves around lies and deception when it was too late - I was only ever going to get enough of a return on my investment to pay my debts by getting a salary flying an aircraft.
After completing all of my training and spending ten of thousands of pounds I was in the privileged position of being able to post my CV to anyone who owned an aircraft - I do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, a job you are not going to get because you do not have the experience OR, in this day and age, you have not spent enough money i.e. you do not have a type rating.
Spending a considerable time unemployed, fending off banks and credit card and watching my family fall apart I was offered a sniff of a job on a turbo-prop...if I payed for the rating. Choice = bankrupt or pay more money. I thought sod it and got an interest free credit card and paid for the rating and if it all goes wrong then I will be bankrupt with a rating.
I started the job, was paid pea-nuts via an agency (an agency I later learned took 80% of the money the airline spent for me).
After that job I was offered a job on the A320, i took it but the airline takes cash from me each month.
Basically, I will spend many many years just paying for the privilage of going to work and making the airlines richer.
I took years out of my life, spent lots of money, lost money due to no salary during training - it will be years before I get back to where I should be.
Then I read threads from 'management' about how us pilots should pay for rating.....it makes me sick! We pay for PPL, hours building, ATPL, CPL, ME, IR, MCC, renewals, medicals and now ratings well I think it's about time pilots started to give the airline management a slap across the face. Pilots need to toughen up and actively discourage 'would be's' from taking up this profession....I wish someone had turned me off the idea as I would certainly not be in this debt, would not have had to study like crazy and I would now be getting more salary and better treatment from a different industry.
Fellow pilots - make sure you tell 'would be's' the truth and do all you can to change their minds. Tell them how many years they will be set back. Tell them to get another career and do a PPL and fly for FUN because airline management have taken that away from the airlines for sure.
- be supportive of each other and if that means tough action against the airlines then so be it.
It's about time the management realised how lucky they are to have guys and girls like us.
START SPEAKING UP! LET'S GET BACK TO THE TIMES WHEN THE AIRLINES PAID FOR EVERYTHING FROM PPL TO JETS. NOW IS THE TIME TO DO IT -SOMEONE WILL HAVE TO FLY ALL THE AIRCRAFT THAT ARE ON ORDER LETS NOT DO IT FOR FREE! MANAGEMENT - start looking for cadets and get your wallets out!
After completing all of my training and spending ten of thousands of pounds I was in the privileged position of being able to post my CV to anyone who owned an aircraft - I do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, a job you are not going to get because you do not have the experience OR, in this day and age, you have not spent enough money i.e. you do not have a type rating.
Spending a considerable time unemployed, fending off banks and credit card and watching my family fall apart I was offered a sniff of a job on a turbo-prop...if I payed for the rating. Choice = bankrupt or pay more money. I thought sod it and got an interest free credit card and paid for the rating and if it all goes wrong then I will be bankrupt with a rating.
I started the job, was paid pea-nuts via an agency (an agency I later learned took 80% of the money the airline spent for me).
After that job I was offered a job on the A320, i took it but the airline takes cash from me each month.
Basically, I will spend many many years just paying for the privilage of going to work and making the airlines richer.
I took years out of my life, spent lots of money, lost money due to no salary during training - it will be years before I get back to where I should be.
Then I read threads from 'management' about how us pilots should pay for rating.....it makes me sick! We pay for PPL, hours building, ATPL, CPL, ME, IR, MCC, renewals, medicals and now ratings well I think it's about time pilots started to give the airline management a slap across the face. Pilots need to toughen up and actively discourage 'would be's' from taking up this profession....I wish someone had turned me off the idea as I would certainly not be in this debt, would not have had to study like crazy and I would now be getting more salary and better treatment from a different industry.
Fellow pilots - make sure you tell 'would be's' the truth and do all you can to change their minds. Tell them how many years they will be set back. Tell them to get another career and do a PPL and fly for FUN because airline management have taken that away from the airlines for sure.
- be supportive of each other and if that means tough action against the airlines then so be it.
It's about time the management realised how lucky they are to have guys and girls like us.
START SPEAKING UP! LET'S GET BACK TO THE TIMES WHEN THE AIRLINES PAID FOR EVERYTHING FROM PPL TO JETS. NOW IS THE TIME TO DO IT -SOMEONE WILL HAVE TO FLY ALL THE AIRCRAFT THAT ARE ON ORDER LETS NOT DO IT FOR FREE! MANAGEMENT - start looking for cadets and get your wallets out!
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Mate, you're wasting your time with this lot. The industry has gone completely to the dogs and there'll be no getting it back anytime soon. Although many of us agree that paying for type-ratings is unethical, there are so many qualified unemployed pilots out there that even the proportion who are willing to pay for type-ratings provide sufficient crew for the airlines.
Much as it would amuse me greatly to organise an action whereby every unemployed wannabe out there refused to pay for TRs and held the airlines for ransom, this will never happen. There will always be people willing to pay for type-ratings. You can't get everyone to unite against the greedy airlines.
If you read a lot of the posts on here about the old SSTR debate, you'll see the same kind of themes. Lots of people disagree with the SSTR on principle (or so they claim) but will come up with a variety of excuses as to why they are going for one themselves. Excuses such as:
1. I'm over 35 so have to get a TR to compete with you younger people
2. I have a mortgage
3. I have a wife and/or children
In other words, they will try to convince the people on this forum that they need the job more than the rest of us. The truth of the matter is that the majority of pilots care little for their fellow pilot. There is no real solidarity. Most wannabes care only about their own job prospects, their own success, the comfort of themselves and their family. It is neither here nor there to most of these people whether by paying for a type-rating they are making it that much more difficult for the wannabes that come after that, or hammering another nail into the coffin of what used to be a great industry to work in.
As for warning people not to embark on an airline career in the first place, as a former instructor I always made sure I did this whenever some fresh-faced ignorant youth wandered into my flying school asking about 'becoming an airline pilot'. Many of them seemed frankly shocked by the cost of it and the poor chances of employment afterwards (one guy thought you could work for an airline with only a PPL!) I probably did manage to put several people off, but you won't put off the really keen (or stubborn) ones. There are many people who do their research, realise the low chances of success and yet still go ahead with the training. I was one of those. Some people just like to take the risk anyway. I do agree though, after having spent many years in the flight training industry, that a large proportion of the trainees have clearly done no research whatsoever! They seem to discover this forum a bit too late,
TB
Much as it would amuse me greatly to organise an action whereby every unemployed wannabe out there refused to pay for TRs and held the airlines for ransom, this will never happen. There will always be people willing to pay for type-ratings. You can't get everyone to unite against the greedy airlines.
If you read a lot of the posts on here about the old SSTR debate, you'll see the same kind of themes. Lots of people disagree with the SSTR on principle (or so they claim) but will come up with a variety of excuses as to why they are going for one themselves. Excuses such as:
1. I'm over 35 so have to get a TR to compete with you younger people
2. I have a mortgage
3. I have a wife and/or children
In other words, they will try to convince the people on this forum that they need the job more than the rest of us. The truth of the matter is that the majority of pilots care little for their fellow pilot. There is no real solidarity. Most wannabes care only about their own job prospects, their own success, the comfort of themselves and their family. It is neither here nor there to most of these people whether by paying for a type-rating they are making it that much more difficult for the wannabes that come after that, or hammering another nail into the coffin of what used to be a great industry to work in.
As for warning people not to embark on an airline career in the first place, as a former instructor I always made sure I did this whenever some fresh-faced ignorant youth wandered into my flying school asking about 'becoming an airline pilot'. Many of them seemed frankly shocked by the cost of it and the poor chances of employment afterwards (one guy thought you could work for an airline with only a PPL!) I probably did manage to put several people off, but you won't put off the really keen (or stubborn) ones. There are many people who do their research, realise the low chances of success and yet still go ahead with the training. I was one of those. Some people just like to take the risk anyway. I do agree though, after having spent many years in the flight training industry, that a large proportion of the trainees have clearly done no research whatsoever! They seem to discover this forum a bit too late,
TB
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Return,
You say you chose flying because of your love of it, you knew that it was an expensive, yet highly paid, business before you entered into it.
You carry on to say that you do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, well you knew that it was expensive before you ventured into it and do you think that a taxi, bus or truck driver is going to be in a position to apply for those jobs without the appropriate training.
The aviation industry owes you nothing, you entered into it because of your love of it in preference to less expensive trained positions as already mentioned, so what if you had wanted to be a F1 racing driver or an astronaut, are those industries meant to fall over backwards for you just because of your love for it?
You say you chose flying because of your love of it, you knew that it was an expensive, yet highly paid, business before you entered into it.
You carry on to say that you do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, well you knew that it was expensive before you ventured into it and do you think that a taxi, bus or truck driver is going to be in a position to apply for those jobs without the appropriate training.
The aviation industry owes you nothing, you entered into it because of your love of it in preference to less expensive trained positions as already mentioned, so what if you had wanted to be a F1 racing driver or an astronaut, are those industries meant to fall over backwards for you just because of your love for it?
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Yes, if I could turn back time I wish I could tell myself not to bother flying professionally. I love flying, so PPL flying is what I should have stuck with, flying a jet isn't as great as you'd imagine. It's fun the first time, however after you are working and another all-nighter getting paid peanuts while your friends work monday to friday earning more than you, without having to land a jet with 170 pax at night with a gusty cross-wind into Africa, it starts to loose its appeal! Other such fun as being tested every 6 months, medical every year etc.
Remember it is just a job at the end of the day. Oh yes, and I still have a few loans to pay back. If I can land a job in the UK this autumn, I think I should be financially ok perhaps by age 30 if I live frugally. Alas, all my trainee pilot buddies say they wish they could be where I am now
If you really want to scratch the itch about flying something bigger I would suggest hiring a sim (if that is allowed these days?). I know too many people who have wasted so much money and time on training commercially to never get a job. I know you think that it will be the best thing ever to be a professional pilot (Well at least I did), but..... just think carefully before you invest lots of money and time. Your chances of success are slim. Even my out of work integrated chums will tell you that (I was modular).
Take it easy, Tom.
Remember it is just a job at the end of the day. Oh yes, and I still have a few loans to pay back. If I can land a job in the UK this autumn, I think I should be financially ok perhaps by age 30 if I live frugally. Alas, all my trainee pilot buddies say they wish they could be where I am now
If you really want to scratch the itch about flying something bigger I would suggest hiring a sim (if that is allowed these days?). I know too many people who have wasted so much money and time on training commercially to never get a job. I know you think that it will be the best thing ever to be a professional pilot (Well at least I did), but..... just think carefully before you invest lots of money and time. Your chances of success are slim. Even my out of work integrated chums will tell you that (I was modular).
Take it easy, Tom.
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Advice
I agree with the previous posts completely. It is sad to see the number of wannabees posting on here with aspirations that are just so wildly out of proportion. I am sometimes shocked to read of the people, established in a well paid professional job. Who are willing to sacrifice their secuirity and embark on a quest in search of nothing but a pipe dream. Alot of the time these people are not exactly wet behind the ears and have young families to support. I cant see the sense? Once in your thirties for example, you will want the nice car and the lovely home. I could not imagine anything worse than the thought of a life debt hanging over my head at such an age. Yes being a pilot is great, you get some lovely views alright. But as so many find out, paying a debt for the rest of your life is crap. Some are lucky I suppose because they have completed their quest and landed that job in the flight deck. The novelty soon wears off I say. My advice to some would be to keep the PPL and enjoy your comfortable life. Re mortgaging houses etc in a crazy gamble to win the right seat in an airliner these days just cant be right??
Remember, you work to live. Not the other way around.
Remember, you work to live. Not the other way around.
Last edited by shaun ryder; 20th Aug 2007 at 16:52. Reason: spelling
Está servira para distraerle.
Mind you, he is right you know.
But the problem is that all pilots, one way or another, prostitute themselves for their trade!
Pilots are so individual and disparate that I am not at all sure that flying aeroplanes merits description as a profession. It's more a trade, composed of many different practitioners, each contributing his own skill but with no ethos or ethic for the common good.
Pilots simply do not possess the quality of collective enterprise. Thus one cannot entirely blame the people who provide the flying job for taking merciless advantage of what some might describe as a collective character flaw of monstrous proportions.
Bye the bye, the writer is a professional pilot of ancient years whose comments, whilst not meant in any way to be insulting to others, are probably a reflection of reality.
Sadly with a
Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 20th Aug 2007 at 14:51. Reason: Perhaps in the original, a little too inflammatory?
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Mr Investment,
I disagree with your post, not because I am an Airline Pilot, but because you're just trying to push your opinion on everyone, yours just happens to be a negative opinion.
You shouldn't be telling people not to be pilots. I've heard from other pilots that they love their job, why is your opinion any more valid then theirs?
What should be happening is pilots should be giving a balanced, realistic explanation of what the job entails. Their are ups and their are downs.
I disagree with your post, not because I am an Airline Pilot, but because you're just trying to push your opinion on everyone, yours just happens to be a negative opinion.
You shouldn't be telling people not to be pilots. I've heard from other pilots that they love their job, why is your opinion any more valid then theirs?
What should be happening is pilots should be giving a balanced, realistic explanation of what the job entails. Their are ups and their are downs.
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Vito? Is that you?!!!
Chuffin' hell... this forum is challenging my resolve to 'follow my dream'.
I am a wannabe who is "working to live" and has pretty much reached the end of his tether in the world of the office rat race. I have wanted to fly since my first ride in an RAF Hercules as a snotty 6yr old. Since then I've applied to RAF, Fleet Air Arm, Army Air Corps, BA, Flybe and BMI sponsorship schemes. I have also recently applied to OAT: Bond and Air Atlantic sponsorships. All the while, I'm chugging through the usual training routes. I once wrote a letter to every flying school in the UK asking for sponsorship to FI level in return for a 15yr commitment. Naive, I know. Maybe some of you FIs actually opened one of my letters.
I have recently presented to HSBC for a loan of 50k and am really nervous about following this route as I may well end up like you, Return, or Mr. Corleone. But what else can I do? I'm 27 already and have done well in the office world but have been struggling with uni debts... which has limited me in my self funded training. I fly para motors and microlights for enjoyment but will go insane soon unless I can folow the career I've always wanted.
Speaking of Mr. Corleone, this thread seems to be a direct follow on from "where are all the jobs then?" Return - you're not actually Vito Corleone in disguise are you?!!
The attitude of the low cost airlines won't change unless wannabee pilots join forces with qualified pilots in employment in order to act. This, obviously, is pie in the sky. Therefore, it will continue to be a ridiculous gamble. I have to confess, it's a gamble that I will take because I have to before I lose that snotty 6yr old forever.
L A
I am a wannabe who is "working to live" and has pretty much reached the end of his tether in the world of the office rat race. I have wanted to fly since my first ride in an RAF Hercules as a snotty 6yr old. Since then I've applied to RAF, Fleet Air Arm, Army Air Corps, BA, Flybe and BMI sponsorship schemes. I have also recently applied to OAT: Bond and Air Atlantic sponsorships. All the while, I'm chugging through the usual training routes. I once wrote a letter to every flying school in the UK asking for sponsorship to FI level in return for a 15yr commitment. Naive, I know. Maybe some of you FIs actually opened one of my letters.
I have recently presented to HSBC for a loan of 50k and am really nervous about following this route as I may well end up like you, Return, or Mr. Corleone. But what else can I do? I'm 27 already and have done well in the office world but have been struggling with uni debts... which has limited me in my self funded training. I fly para motors and microlights for enjoyment but will go insane soon unless I can folow the career I've always wanted.
Speaking of Mr. Corleone, this thread seems to be a direct follow on from "where are all the jobs then?" Return - you're not actually Vito Corleone in disguise are you?!!
The attitude of the low cost airlines won't change unless wannabee pilots join forces with qualified pilots in employment in order to act. This, obviously, is pie in the sky. Therefore, it will continue to be a ridiculous gamble. I have to confess, it's a gamble that I will take because I have to before I lose that snotty 6yr old forever.
L A
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Unfortunately the abuse won't stop, well not that I can see for a number of reasons:
- becoming a pilot these days is a process of self selection. Any tom dick or harriette can wake up and decide that they will become a pilot. Put in some work and hey presto, same licence as we all have no matter whether you have the aptitude to stick at the job in the long term. Go to the CAA in Gatwick if you don't believe me and sit and watch all the wannabes coming in each day to get their licences signed off. My guess is 10 a day on average.
- it is cheaper than ever to become a pilot in real terms which makes it more accessible
- cash is easier to get hold of. Just depends how much risk you are willing to take and if your wallet can hold all of the free credit cards that lenders are willing to offer you
- type ratings are easily accessible and if done at a school with so called "contacts" then you can find yourself into the RHS of a jet relatively easily. Usual caveats apply of course and you will still need to pass the entry tests/interviews.
- cockpit automation and reliability of aircraft. In the eyes of the public the jets just fly themselves around and we are seen to do nothing in getting them from A to B. Most people I think assume we do Cat 3 autolands day in and day out and have no idea that we actually do still handfly for parts of the flight! Management listen to this hearsay and duly dumb down our pay and conditions.
- the likes of FR have taken cost cutting to a new dimension. Other carriers cite FR as their model and main competitor even when this is not the case in order to reduce costs. This is cited at pay reviews and flows down through the whole business model. Cost cutting itself in my opinion is the easy way to make profit in a business. The harsh reality for airlines and the CEO is that it is much harder to actually go out and generate revenues and profit at the same time. Much easier for a CEO to come in and slash and burn and then move on after a few years when they realise that there is actually a job to be done in growing the business.
Previously you couldn't get near a jet with 200 hours unless you had jumped through various hoops at the integrated schools and were in the top 5-10% of your class. The airlines would cite "training risk" as the big factor in declining most applications from low houred/old timers/those that didn't fit their mould whatever that was. Nowadays with the accessibility of self funded type ratings the airlines are more likely to say oh well if they are useless at least we wouldn't have spent a whole lot of our training budget on them. Pay for it yourself line training programmes go further to give wannabes the much needed commercial experience.
All in all I don't see it getting any better. If anything all we can do is to hope that we can try and hold onto the terms and conditions that we have at present.
- becoming a pilot these days is a process of self selection. Any tom dick or harriette can wake up and decide that they will become a pilot. Put in some work and hey presto, same licence as we all have no matter whether you have the aptitude to stick at the job in the long term. Go to the CAA in Gatwick if you don't believe me and sit and watch all the wannabes coming in each day to get their licences signed off. My guess is 10 a day on average.
- it is cheaper than ever to become a pilot in real terms which makes it more accessible
- cash is easier to get hold of. Just depends how much risk you are willing to take and if your wallet can hold all of the free credit cards that lenders are willing to offer you
- type ratings are easily accessible and if done at a school with so called "contacts" then you can find yourself into the RHS of a jet relatively easily. Usual caveats apply of course and you will still need to pass the entry tests/interviews.
- cockpit automation and reliability of aircraft. In the eyes of the public the jets just fly themselves around and we are seen to do nothing in getting them from A to B. Most people I think assume we do Cat 3 autolands day in and day out and have no idea that we actually do still handfly for parts of the flight! Management listen to this hearsay and duly dumb down our pay and conditions.
- the likes of FR have taken cost cutting to a new dimension. Other carriers cite FR as their model and main competitor even when this is not the case in order to reduce costs. This is cited at pay reviews and flows down through the whole business model. Cost cutting itself in my opinion is the easy way to make profit in a business. The harsh reality for airlines and the CEO is that it is much harder to actually go out and generate revenues and profit at the same time. Much easier for a CEO to come in and slash and burn and then move on after a few years when they realise that there is actually a job to be done in growing the business.
Previously you couldn't get near a jet with 200 hours unless you had jumped through various hoops at the integrated schools and were in the top 5-10% of your class. The airlines would cite "training risk" as the big factor in declining most applications from low houred/old timers/those that didn't fit their mould whatever that was. Nowadays with the accessibility of self funded type ratings the airlines are more likely to say oh well if they are useless at least we wouldn't have spent a whole lot of our training budget on them. Pay for it yourself line training programmes go further to give wannabes the much needed commercial experience.
All in all I don't see it getting any better. If anything all we can do is to hope that we can try and hold onto the terms and conditions that we have at present.
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so what if you had wanted to be a F1 racing driver or an astronaut, are those industries meant to fall over backwards for you just because of your love for it?
But the pay is crap $39000 start upto max $79000
http://nasajobs.nasa.gov/benefits/benefits.htm
Just to cheer everyone up!
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The benefits look pretty good!
But the pay is crap $39000 start upto max $79000
But the pay is crap $39000 start upto max $79000
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I do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job
Law - GBP 20k p.a. for BPP law school - half of class is unsponsored
Medicine (in the U.S.) - undergrad and postgrad all funded by self - no guarantee of a job.
Jobs requiring Masters' degrees - many to mention and few are sponsored: chartered surveyor etc.
I could go on, but the statement made by the OP is simply untrue.
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No, it is not me, however I wholly agree with what this guy has said. He, like me is man enough to admit that he has been taken for a fool by themsleves and the aviation industry. "Return on my investment", full marks for having the balls to admit this.
The trap has a number of phases:
1. U have a job which doesnt fulfill you and you dream of doing something u enjoy for a living which pays well. You want to do something which you enjoy, and which will also pay you a decent wage.
2. You have a think and go ahah! Pilot! Great job, fly all over the world etc, plus airline pilots earn lots of money dont they!
3. You look into flying training and go round a few flying schools, who tell you- u can get your FATPL for 30grand, plus theres loads of jobs out there, get first time passes in exams and skill tests and ull be sorted. You think 30grand, a fair bit of cash but perhaps not a bad price to pay for a good career and life, plus ull earn it back in a few years, no problem. You do a bit of research into the job market, ok it might be hard to get a job with low hours, but people do. Ill approach it with a good atitude, make my own luck and Ill be sorted.
4. you do your training, 30k turns into 40k, turns into 60+K if you go out and get a FI ratng, pay for a TR, etc.
5. you finish training, then try to get a job. Nothing happens, dispite your best efforts. You realise that your expectations when you started training aren't gonna happen any time soon and that you've basically made a very big mistake. You realise, when you come down from the excitement and promise of being an airline pilot that you have been a fool.
This trap is not the fault of the aviation industry directly, wannabe pilots are victims their own naivety.
I seriously think that managers of flying schools actually think we are all mad. The flying schools have a never ending stream of idiots prepared to put money in their pockets, the airlines have a never ending stream of idiots who are prepared to pay for training which they should pay for, its plain business sense to take advantage of them.
The trap has a number of phases:
1. U have a job which doesnt fulfill you and you dream of doing something u enjoy for a living which pays well. You want to do something which you enjoy, and which will also pay you a decent wage.
2. You have a think and go ahah! Pilot! Great job, fly all over the world etc, plus airline pilots earn lots of money dont they!
3. You look into flying training and go round a few flying schools, who tell you- u can get your FATPL for 30grand, plus theres loads of jobs out there, get first time passes in exams and skill tests and ull be sorted. You think 30grand, a fair bit of cash but perhaps not a bad price to pay for a good career and life, plus ull earn it back in a few years, no problem. You do a bit of research into the job market, ok it might be hard to get a job with low hours, but people do. Ill approach it with a good atitude, make my own luck and Ill be sorted.
4. you do your training, 30k turns into 40k, turns into 60+K if you go out and get a FI ratng, pay for a TR, etc.
5. you finish training, then try to get a job. Nothing happens, dispite your best efforts. You realise that your expectations when you started training aren't gonna happen any time soon and that you've basically made a very big mistake. You realise, when you come down from the excitement and promise of being an airline pilot that you have been a fool.
This trap is not the fault of the aviation industry directly, wannabe pilots are victims their own naivety.
I seriously think that managers of flying schools actually think we are all mad. The flying schools have a never ending stream of idiots prepared to put money in their pockets, the airlines have a never ending stream of idiots who are prepared to pay for training which they should pay for, its plain business sense to take advantage of them.
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Hi all, I couldn't resist the irony but found this at the bottom of the last post.
Commercial Pilot Training
CAPT Airline Pilot School, Florida! 14-Months to an Airline Pilot Job
CAPTprogram.com
I kind of agree with all of you to a certain extent. Yes, it's cost a fortune and theres no guarentee of any job after "qualifying" . However, most of whinning and pain is well, to put it bluntly, self-inflicted.
It as taken me 6 years to get my fATPL, I have worked my proverbials off, had two jobs for all of the 6 years, and no social, no summer holidays (unless) flying or training. Heres some of my second jobs I 've had:
- shelf-stacking, factory work, security, leaflet dropping and I've done medical experiments (not bad money £3600 for a months work tax free!!!
)
So I'm pretty fed up of reading about new pilots feeling robbed because they where stupid enough to borrow £60,000 to £100,000 and go to a big school and not get a job.
We are suppose to be intelligent people, but has the adage says "if it's too good to be true it probably is"
As for "standing up" to the airlines, hell will freeze over before that happens. I'm in both the "unions" and each say they don't agree with SSTR but guess what? pick up any of there mags and count the adverts from organisations who, you guessed it!, SSTR!!
The so-called representatives of "US" don't even have the balls to say no to an advert!!!
We have no chance.
I wish everybody the best of British luck and hope it all works out.
Orvil
Commercial Pilot Training
CAPT Airline Pilot School, Florida! 14-Months to an Airline Pilot Job
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I kind of agree with all of you to a certain extent. Yes, it's cost a fortune and theres no guarentee of any job after "qualifying" . However, most of whinning and pain is well, to put it bluntly, self-inflicted.
It as taken me 6 years to get my fATPL, I have worked my proverbials off, had two jobs for all of the 6 years, and no social, no summer holidays (unless) flying or training. Heres some of my second jobs I 've had:
- shelf-stacking, factory work, security, leaflet dropping and I've done medical experiments (not bad money £3600 for a months work tax free!!!
)So I'm pretty fed up of reading about new pilots feeling robbed because they where stupid enough to borrow £60,000 to £100,000 and go to a big school and not get a job.
We are suppose to be intelligent people, but has the adage says "if it's too good to be true it probably is"
As for "standing up" to the airlines, hell will freeze over before that happens. I'm in both the "unions" and each say they don't agree with SSTR but guess what? pick up any of there mags and count the adverts from organisations who, you guessed it!, SSTR!!
The so-called representatives of "US" don't even have the balls to say no to an advert!!!
We have no chance.
I wish everybody the best of British luck and hope it all works out.
Orvil
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However, with the general lack now of EXPERIANCED pilots i think you are going to start to see industry wide improvments in T+C's due to airlines being forced to "head hunt".
all and loose a couple of aircraft than actually pay for safety.And it's not just management, pilots too. Witness all the threads here that think that as long as people are trained properly, low experience doesn't matter.
Potkettleblack, your assessment is correct.
We're our own worst enemies and by the time we realise that (which everyone eventually does) it's too late, and anyway, I've yet to meet a wannabe who isn't convinced they know better than all the experienced pilots, that they will somehow have a different experience, so you're banging your head on a brick wall.
RIP professional pilot.
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Gentlemen -
xxx
Read my posts in the North American Forum "USA Pilot Shortage"...
It is not any different than your situation in UK or Europe.
You are out of your mind to pay a penny for a rating, and buy yourself a job.
And what job...? Underpaid...?
xxx
The winners are (1) flight schools (2) airlines (particularly LCCs)...
They laugh on their way to the banks to make their deposits...
Whose fault...? - YOURS
In the old days, you would have paid CPL/IR/ME... nada más - rien de plus...
Some airlines operated their own school and paid trainees during training.
But an idiot started this, in the mid-1970s, of offering to pay for his rating, and buy himself a job.
So the next idiots did the same...
And it is getting worse ever since... MCC this, then fATPL that, then jet rating, here we go...!
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Read my posts in the North American Forum "USA Pilot Shortage"...
It is not any different than your situation in UK or Europe.
You are out of your mind to pay a penny for a rating, and buy yourself a job.
And what job...? Underpaid...?
xxx
The winners are (1) flight schools (2) airlines (particularly LCCs)...
They laugh on their way to the banks to make their deposits...
Whose fault...? - YOURS
In the old days, you would have paid CPL/IR/ME... nada más - rien de plus...
Some airlines operated their own school and paid trainees during training.
But an idiot started this, in the mid-1970s, of offering to pay for his rating, and buy himself a job.
So the next idiots did the same...
And it is getting worse ever since... MCC this, then fATPL that, then jet rating, here we go...!
xxx
Happy contrails
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Due to increased use of air transportation, the job of a pilot was always destined to become less respected, glamorous, rewarding and compensating. Anything, whether it be a product/technology or service depreciates. Along with the depreciation occurs a depreciation of the employee group which provide that product/service.
Airlines such as Ryanair with their staggering growth and success have brought this reality forward sooner than most would’ve expected.
However, if what I have stated above is true how come train drivers and bus drivers haven’t been abused yet? The answer is actually quite simple, if a person cannot get a job as a train driver he/she does one of the following: A.) Do another job and sit tight for a few years re-applying if need be. B.) Find a new career.
What does a Wannabe Airline pilot do?
C.) Offer’s their services for free. D.) Offers to pay double the price for a type rating which the Airline would otherwise be forced to pay for itself.
Train companies are not (through Union terms) allowed to take advantage of C and D above and in truth, in this capitalist culture, that’s the only reason preventing them! However Airlines for some short-sighted reasons are allowed to take advantage of C and D and they do! BALPA are the only people who can stop this happening but will they?
Employed pilots are always advising wannabes to stop paying for this and that but in reality ONLY THEY can make it happen through Union action as they are on the inside! WHEN WILL THEY REALISE THIS AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?
Airlines such as Ryanair with their staggering growth and success have brought this reality forward sooner than most would’ve expected.
However, if what I have stated above is true how come train drivers and bus drivers haven’t been abused yet? The answer is actually quite simple, if a person cannot get a job as a train driver he/she does one of the following: A.) Do another job and sit tight for a few years re-applying if need be. B.) Find a new career.
What does a Wannabe Airline pilot do?
C.) Offer’s their services for free. D.) Offers to pay double the price for a type rating which the Airline would otherwise be forced to pay for itself.
Train companies are not (through Union terms) allowed to take advantage of C and D above and in truth, in this capitalist culture, that’s the only reason preventing them! However Airlines for some short-sighted reasons are allowed to take advantage of C and D and they do! BALPA are the only people who can stop this happening but will they?
Employed pilots are always advising wannabes to stop paying for this and that but in reality ONLY THEY can make it happen through Union action as they are on the inside! WHEN WILL THEY REALISE THIS AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?
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I love BelArg'a argument of how it was in the old days,
Well in the old days, the good old days, many guys would spend perhaps their entire careers on turbo-props, a jet job would just be a dream, now guys can get straight in on a jet, with only perhaps 200 hours total time, and they have to dig in their pockets to get there, oh dear.
Oh yes, the old days, when the Bank Manager was a respected figure in the community, who does one get to talk to now, a damn call centre located somewhere in India!
Every industry moves with the times and aviation has to move also, the men in their flying machines are no longer regarded as 'magnificent'
Well in the old days, the good old days, many guys would spend perhaps their entire careers on turbo-props, a jet job would just be a dream, now guys can get straight in on a jet, with only perhaps 200 hours total time, and they have to dig in their pockets to get there, oh dear.
Oh yes, the old days, when the Bank Manager was a respected figure in the community, who does one get to talk to now, a damn call centre located somewhere in India!
Every industry moves with the times and aviation has to move also, the men in their flying machines are no longer regarded as 'magnificent'