abusing pilots must stop
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I don't think BelArgUSA was necessarily trying to recite the 'good old days' per se but attempting to highlight the status of the aviation industy in modern times against the preconceived ideas of today's wannabe brigade.
Nevertheless it's also to hear the experiences of those that have trod this or any path in life. Any such advice must surely be worth it's weight in gold.
Nevertheless it's also to hear the experiences of those that have trod this or any path in life. Any such advice must surely be worth it's weight in gold.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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The industry has changed drastically in the last 7 years since I first started sniffing around it. Back then a SSTR was an extreme rarity but now it has almost become the norm. The cost of an integrated course was less than £50K and banks still gave out PSL's like they were giving out sweets...
The employment conditions have changed for the worse which largely came about as a result of 911. However, following 911 wannabe's started thinking up new ways to get ahead of their opposition and, just like the MCC (where airlines once footed the bill) they chose to pay more money for more training.
That is the fault of the student pilot - not the employers, dear boys.
To be honest threads like this wind me up because it just goes to show the poor mentality of some people out there who assume the airlines owe them a living. They do not. YOU and I both chose to follow our career path - nobody held a gun to our heads. It is frustrating that the financial effort is now greater to jump that final hurdle but as a group of individuals we failed to unite when things got tough and therefore now pay the consequences of those selfish actions.
It pays little to lay blame elsewhere other than yer own doorsteps and the doorsteps of fellow trainee's so quit bitching otherwise you'll develop one hell of a chip on your shoulder which will only hamper your goal even more.
VFE.
The employment conditions have changed for the worse which largely came about as a result of 911. However, following 911 wannabe's started thinking up new ways to get ahead of their opposition and, just like the MCC (where airlines once footed the bill) they chose to pay more money for more training.
That is the fault of the student pilot - not the employers, dear boys.
To be honest threads like this wind me up because it just goes to show the poor mentality of some people out there who assume the airlines owe them a living. They do not. YOU and I both chose to follow our career path - nobody held a gun to our heads. It is frustrating that the financial effort is now greater to jump that final hurdle but as a group of individuals we failed to unite when things got tough and therefore now pay the consequences of those selfish actions.
It pays little to lay blame elsewhere other than yer own doorsteps and the doorsteps of fellow trainee's so quit bitching otherwise you'll develop one hell of a chip on your shoulder which will only hamper your goal even more.
VFE.
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Just like you can't achieve perpetual motion you will never beat the laws of supply and demand either.
If there are less jobs than applicants then airlines are going to pay you less and expect better entry qualifications. Your wage constitues how replaceable you are, not how diffcult or demanding your job is. The instablity of the industry affects the airlines as bad as it affects us, so they are going to do everything in their power to save money and stay afloat.
There is nothing we are ever going to be able to do about it. If pilots start playing hard ball then other pilots are going to jump in in their place. So you might as well get onboard and live with it, or go and do/persue another job.
If there are less jobs than applicants then airlines are going to pay you less and expect better entry qualifications. Your wage constitues how replaceable you are, not how diffcult or demanding your job is. The instablity of the industry affects the airlines as bad as it affects us, so they are going to do everything in their power to save money and stay afloat.
There is nothing we are ever going to be able to do about it. If pilots start playing hard ball then other pilots are going to jump in in their place. So you might as well get onboard and live with it, or go and do/persue another job.
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Like most of my fellow pilots I choose to be a pilot because of my love of flying. That love of flying took me to the flight schools which fed me the full load of crap about how I must train in the UK, how I must do this and that and how all their students get into the airlines. I only realised how much the industry revolves around lies and deception when it was too late - I was only ever going to get enough of a return on my investment to pay my debts by getting a salary flying an aircraft.
After completing all of my training and spending ten of thousands of pounds I was in the privileged position of being able to post my CV to anyone who owned an aircraft - I do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, a job you are not going to get because you do not have the experience OR, in this day and age, you have not spent enough money i.e. you do not have a type rating.
Spending a considerable time unemployed, fending off banks and credit card and watching my family fall apart I was offered a sniff of a job on a turbo-prop...if I payed for the rating. Choice = bankrupt or pay more money. I thought sod it and got an interest free credit card and paid for the rating and if it all goes wrong then I will be bankrupt with a rating.
I started the job, was paid pea-nuts via an agency (an agency I later learned took 80% of the money the airline spent for me).
After that job I was offered a job on the A320, i took it but the airline takes cash from me each month.
Basically, I will spend many many years just paying for the privilage of going to work and making the airlines richer.
I took years out of my life, spent lots of money, lost money due to no salary during training - it will be years before I get back to where I should be.
After completing all of my training and spending ten of thousands of pounds I was in the privileged position of being able to post my CV to anyone who owned an aircraft - I do not believe there is another profession that exists where you must pay a very very large amount of money just to get into a position were you can apply for a job, a job you are not going to get because you do not have the experience OR, in this day and age, you have not spent enough money i.e. you do not have a type rating.
Spending a considerable time unemployed, fending off banks and credit card and watching my family fall apart I was offered a sniff of a job on a turbo-prop...if I payed for the rating. Choice = bankrupt or pay more money. I thought sod it and got an interest free credit card and paid for the rating and if it all goes wrong then I will be bankrupt with a rating.
I started the job, was paid pea-nuts via an agency (an agency I later learned took 80% of the money the airline spent for me).
After that job I was offered a job on the A320, i took it but the airline takes cash from me each month.
Basically, I will spend many many years just paying for the privilage of going to work and making the airlines richer.
I took years out of my life, spent lots of money, lost money due to no salary during training - it will be years before I get back to where I should be.
It took me fifteen years of hard flying before getting the chance to climb into a jet...and here you're whining because...why is it you're whining again?
Grow up.
As for other industries that require you to spend large sums of money and still have little to show for it...don't forget to include doctor, lawyer, yada, yada, yada...
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The problem is not the cost of the training. Its actually quite reasonable really. It all depends how you get that licence. Its no good paying well over the odds because you want to go integrated at the school with the shiniest brochure then coming on here and complaining because your £100k in debt.
So many people say they want to be a pilot because they love to fly. (most of these before they even have a PPL) Then they complain because they are not getting a huge salary. Ask yourself what have you actually done to deserve a large wage other than do what you say you love doing. If you have borrowed the money rather than working for it and saving it then you really have not done much at all. Compare yourself to a nurse who goes through the years of training and works long hours to earn a fraction of what a pilot earns. There are loads of jobs out there which all require years of training that is done whilst working around part time jobs. There is not many careers which you can be ready to find employment after only 12-18 months of training. Certainly not that pay anything near what a pilot gets.
I think too many people have the image of themselves walking through the terminal in their uniform and earning a vast amount of cash whilst being the envy of everyone. This after a quick visit to the bank and a year of flying around in the sun having fun. No wonder there are loads of wannabes out there.
Im not saying the route to fATPL is easy, but lets put it in perspective here. There are alot harder and less rewarding jobs out there.
As to making it cheaper this will only mean more people after the same few jobs. If you take out the cost and make airlines pay for it all then the only people getting jobs will be 21 year olds with a first class degree and a father in the industry or the ex RAF pilots. The 35 year old hard working wannabe will be a thing of the past. Be careful what you wish for...
So many people say they want to be a pilot because they love to fly. (most of these before they even have a PPL) Then they complain because they are not getting a huge salary. Ask yourself what have you actually done to deserve a large wage other than do what you say you love doing. If you have borrowed the money rather than working for it and saving it then you really have not done much at all. Compare yourself to a nurse who goes through the years of training and works long hours to earn a fraction of what a pilot earns. There are loads of jobs out there which all require years of training that is done whilst working around part time jobs. There is not many careers which you can be ready to find employment after only 12-18 months of training. Certainly not that pay anything near what a pilot gets.
I think too many people have the image of themselves walking through the terminal in their uniform and earning a vast amount of cash whilst being the envy of everyone. This after a quick visit to the bank and a year of flying around in the sun having fun. No wonder there are loads of wannabes out there.
Im not saying the route to fATPL is easy, but lets put it in perspective here. There are alot harder and less rewarding jobs out there.
As to making it cheaper this will only mean more people after the same few jobs. If you take out the cost and make airlines pay for it all then the only people getting jobs will be 21 year olds with a first class degree and a father in the industry or the ex RAF pilots. The 35 year old hard working wannabe will be a thing of the past. Be careful what you wish for...
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OMG!!!! Everyone’s job sucks from time to time or if you’re really unlucky all the time….. I’m sorry that you seem to be on of the later, but, guess what, we live in a world where we can get another job if we don’t like the one we’ve got. So, go and do that and stop depressing the c**p out of the rest of us 
.
And please don’t, for one second, think that aviation is the only ‘self funded’ profession out there…….. its not by a long shot and you’re deluded if you think otherwise
.
Thanks to SNS3Guppy, Prophead & Topslide6 for replying in the positive and preventing me from having to go a top myself…….!
.And please don’t, for one second, think that aviation is the only ‘self funded’ profession out there…….. its not by a long shot and you’re deluded if you think otherwise
.Thanks to SNS3Guppy, Prophead & Topslide6 for replying in the positive and preventing me from having to go a top myself…….!
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'return my investment' I feel your pain mate, I know where you are coming from. If nothing else, I agree, try to get the word out to other new wannabes to get on with something else other than flying, and get treated better and have a better life.
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Well of course there are two sides to every story - personally I've thus far had good experiences as have two friends of mine, one 19 years of age, the other 20, who are now in a 737 and 757 RHS respectively.
"Chances of success slim?" What bollocks, someone's gotta fly them
It's PRECISELY WHAT YOU MAKE IT. You got into flying because of your love for it? Then that's absolutely why you should continue with it. You'll beat yourself up over it if you don't...
Cheers, Jack.
"Chances of success slim?" What bollocks, someone's gotta fly them
It's PRECISELY WHAT YOU MAKE IT. You got into flying because of your love for it? Then that's absolutely why you should continue with it. You'll beat yourself up over it if you don't...
Cheers, Jack.
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No.. You and various others get into it because you paid for it! i.e your type ratings, getting to fly airliners with circa 200hrs. Outrageous, always has been in my opinion. Getting shafted on rubbish wages and paying for line training etc etc. Be all self righteous offering advice to wannabees on what to do. Truth is, you were probably whining about how the world owed you a job when you had your piddley 200hrs! Thank God, that for the time being recruitment will be open to experienced applicants only, it will hopefully bring some reality and balance back into this ridiculous situation where people borrow obscene amounts of money to chase what really is a pipe dream for the majority. Some of you might have to contemplate the horror of working your way up through the normal channels for the foreseeable future, or put it all down to bad judgement.
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Shaun Ryder,
You have misunderstood me - if you were referring in part to previous posts, then my apologies. However, I am not of the opinion that anybody is owed a job in the RHS any more than a law grad is owed a job with a high flying legal firm. Indeed, one of said friends of mine paid for his type rating with a certain lcc based in Ireland - the other was motivated and committed enough to have secured a place to train with CTC. Personally I'd love to fly the big ones straight away; who with my ambition wouldn't? However, my passion is for AVIATION, and I've never allowed myself to become tunnel visioned to the airlines in any way, shape or form. Which is where I believe there can be a problem - I'm not without my personal stereotypes and it bothers me that some people will happily let 'mum and dad' pay through the eyeballs for the training they may not deserve on the basis that only the airlines are worthy of them. The idea of instructing and passing my knowledge on to others is such an appealing prospect to me right now, as is aerial survey work (of which I've been involved with in the past), glider towing, air taxi, bush flying, light freight and so on so forth. My personal opinion is that far too many people are centered on the big iron far too early and it is this culture partially which has led to, as the previous poster mentioned, market forces erring to the situation we find ourselves in now. Do you place the blame on people like me for the current circumstances? From a commercial perspective then yes, we're partial. But it's also established pilots in certain airlines not having the BALLS to fight for half decent T+Cs that's only exacerbating the problem. And at the moment we find ourselves in a vicious cycle - some business models will want only experienced pilots, experienced pilots who will not last forever, for there will come a time when cadets are needed. And currently one of the only ways to achieve that is to have said cadet pay for his or her own type rating - kills two birds with the same stone as some airlines have recognised.
So indeed, please don't get me wrong, I think the current climate is disgusting in many regards, but I would never let that overturn the passion that drove me into it in the first place. And I believe it's wrong for certain individuals who happened to have had bad experiences to poison the minds of the innocent so to speak - all you are succeeding in doing is balancing the scales; for every pessimist (or should I call you 'realist'?
) out there, is somebody positive. Then again, this is PPRuNe, well known as an antagonist's paradise, and all views, bar some, are best taken with a healthy pinch of salt.
All the best, Jack.
You have misunderstood me - if you were referring in part to previous posts, then my apologies. However, I am not of the opinion that anybody is owed a job in the RHS any more than a law grad is owed a job with a high flying legal firm. Indeed, one of said friends of mine paid for his type rating with a certain lcc based in Ireland - the other was motivated and committed enough to have secured a place to train with CTC. Personally I'd love to fly the big ones straight away; who with my ambition wouldn't? However, my passion is for AVIATION, and I've never allowed myself to become tunnel visioned to the airlines in any way, shape or form. Which is where I believe there can be a problem - I'm not without my personal stereotypes and it bothers me that some people will happily let 'mum and dad' pay through the eyeballs for the training they may not deserve on the basis that only the airlines are worthy of them. The idea of instructing and passing my knowledge on to others is such an appealing prospect to me right now, as is aerial survey work (of which I've been involved with in the past), glider towing, air taxi, bush flying, light freight and so on so forth. My personal opinion is that far too many people are centered on the big iron far too early and it is this culture partially which has led to, as the previous poster mentioned, market forces erring to the situation we find ourselves in now. Do you place the blame on people like me for the current circumstances? From a commercial perspective then yes, we're partial. But it's also established pilots in certain airlines not having the BALLS to fight for half decent T+Cs that's only exacerbating the problem. And at the moment we find ourselves in a vicious cycle - some business models will want only experienced pilots, experienced pilots who will not last forever, for there will come a time when cadets are needed. And currently one of the only ways to achieve that is to have said cadet pay for his or her own type rating - kills two birds with the same stone as some airlines have recognised.
So indeed, please don't get me wrong, I think the current climate is disgusting in many regards, but I would never let that overturn the passion that drove me into it in the first place. And I believe it's wrong for certain individuals who happened to have had bad experiences to poison the minds of the innocent so to speak - all you are succeeding in doing is balancing the scales; for every pessimist (or should I call you 'realist'?
) out there, is somebody positive. Then again, this is PPRuNe, well known as an antagonist's paradise, and all views, bar some, are best taken with a healthy pinch of salt.All the best, Jack.
Educated Hillbilly
There is this misconception that paying for a type rating means poor terms and conditions. It seems that a number of your think been bonded on a low salary for three to four years is more acceptable than paying for a rating.
Ryanair pilots may get a raw deal for about 6-12 months, but after that the pay scheme seems to be quite respectable. Compare two people with 250 hours, one joins Ryanair the other goes down the instructing route, on average most people are going to end up instructing full time for a year to two years before getting employed (I will admit one of the most enjoyable jobs I have done), in which time the Cadet at Ryanair will have obtained 900 to 1800 hours on a 737 at Ryanair. Said instructor may get a turboprop job within 12 to 18 months, probably with a three year bond of about 20,000. Three years later, Ryanair cadet now will have progressed to command, probably has sufficient heavy jet hours to apply to Emirates. Instructor has now finished bond on turboprop and can now apply for a jet job. So for all you Ryanair bashers out there it is/was somewhere that could progress your career quite quickly. When I consider the paycut I took to instruct full time for a year it was well in excess of the price of a rating.
Anyway with a five day on and four day off roster and getting home every evening sounds ok to me ( I don't work for Ryanair), if I had such a roster then I would still be flying for a living. I didn't feel that 500 hours of VFR instructing ever prepared me for a heavy aircraft rating; infact a 250 pilot fresh off the IR course is going to be just as well prepared to cope with a type rating course than a 700/1000 hour instructor who has largely only been doing VFR flying.
Ryanair pilots may get a raw deal for about 6-12 months, but after that the pay scheme seems to be quite respectable. Compare two people with 250 hours, one joins Ryanair the other goes down the instructing route, on average most people are going to end up instructing full time for a year to two years before getting employed (I will admit one of the most enjoyable jobs I have done), in which time the Cadet at Ryanair will have obtained 900 to 1800 hours on a 737 at Ryanair. Said instructor may get a turboprop job within 12 to 18 months, probably with a three year bond of about 20,000. Three years later, Ryanair cadet now will have progressed to command, probably has sufficient heavy jet hours to apply to Emirates. Instructor has now finished bond on turboprop and can now apply for a jet job. So for all you Ryanair bashers out there it is/was somewhere that could progress your career quite quickly. When I consider the paycut I took to instruct full time for a year it was well in excess of the price of a rating.
Anyway with a five day on and four day off roster and getting home every evening sounds ok to me ( I don't work for Ryanair), if I had such a roster then I would still be flying for a living. I didn't feel that 500 hours of VFR instructing ever prepared me for a heavy aircraft rating; infact a 250 pilot fresh off the IR course is going to be just as well prepared to cope with a type rating course than a 700/1000 hour instructor who has largely only been doing VFR flying.
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Jack my friend, let me suggest you make paragraphs your friend. The wall-o- text thing is hard on the eyes.
Interesting revival of an old dead thread posted by a whinger and a sucker. One born every minute.
I'm all for putting people off a flying career and for potential pilots to band together and refuse to pay for TRs. Go ahead because I'll step in and the take the available jobs. Call me mercenary if you like but in reality, I'll be trampled in the rush of other pilots doing just the same. There is no solidarity among unemployed pilots or wannabe pilots. Everyone else is just a potential rival.
It's quite different to band together and try an keep Ts and Cs once you are in a job. I'm all for that.
In the real world, no one owes you a living. Every week if you watch that annoying X-factor programme, you see Simon Cowell et al, telling some dreamer that they're crap and can't sing. The poor things run off in tears telling the faux sympathetic interviewer that 'This is something they wanted to do all their (pathetic little) life'. Well boo hoo to them and boo hoo to those wannabe pilots want it all handed to them.
The reality is that in my experience, most pilots eventually find work as pilots if they really want it enough. The law of natural selection soon weeds out those who aren't prepared to put in the effort required.
The truth of the matter is that it was never easy to become a pilot. Even in WW2 you had to meet a standard and were weeded out quickly if you didn't. In the 'good old days' of the fifties, sixties and seventies. There were cadetships which were always oversubscribed. The self improver route was horrendously expensive and no bank offered loans. Many don't realise that in Britain, you couldn't even get a CPL until you had 700 hours behind you. So much for the 'good old days'.
So anyone whinging that the airlines aren't besieging their house to hire them with 200 or 300 hours in their books, really isn't fit to live in the real world yet.
Interesting revival of an old dead thread posted by a whinger and a sucker. One born every minute.
I'm all for putting people off a flying career and for potential pilots to band together and refuse to pay for TRs. Go ahead because I'll step in and the take the available jobs. Call me mercenary if you like but in reality, I'll be trampled in the rush of other pilots doing just the same. There is no solidarity among unemployed pilots or wannabe pilots. Everyone else is just a potential rival.
It's quite different to band together and try an keep Ts and Cs once you are in a job. I'm all for that.
In the real world, no one owes you a living. Every week if you watch that annoying X-factor programme, you see Simon Cowell et al, telling some dreamer that they're crap and can't sing. The poor things run off in tears telling the faux sympathetic interviewer that 'This is something they wanted to do all their (pathetic little) life'. Well boo hoo to them and boo hoo to those wannabe pilots want it all handed to them.
The reality is that in my experience, most pilots eventually find work as pilots if they really want it enough. The law of natural selection soon weeds out those who aren't prepared to put in the effort required.
The truth of the matter is that it was never easy to become a pilot. Even in WW2 you had to meet a standard and were weeded out quickly if you didn't. In the 'good old days' of the fifties, sixties and seventies. There were cadetships which were always oversubscribed. The self improver route was horrendously expensive and no bank offered loans. Many don't realise that in Britain, you couldn't even get a CPL until you had 700 hours behind you. So much for the 'good old days'.
So anyone whinging that the airlines aren't besieging their house to hire them with 200 or 300 hours in their books, really isn't fit to live in the real world yet.
Educated Hillbilly
Corsair, I certainly don't agree that the CAA self improver route was horredoulsy expensive.
The CAA self improver route was a good deal more affordable than the current JAA modular system. No appoved ground school required for CPL and ATPL exams, hence you could just buy the books and book in for the exams.
On the CAA self improver route the IR, if done once 700 hours was achieved could be done as a non-approved course where training was done as required and there was not a requirement to do a minimum of 50/55 hour course.
Also as an CAA QFI, you could be teaching the IMC rating and gaining quite a bit of IFR experience prior to taking the IR. I remember seeing BCPL courses for as little as 1200-1500 pounds (in the mid 1990s', compare that to 5000-6000 now for a JAA CPL (even take into account inflation). With the 23% tax relief available prior to 2002 then flight training was alot more affordable prior to JAA.
Also BCPL to CPL upgrade courses were also available for quite some time allowing people to skip the 700 hour requirement.
The CAA self improver route was a good deal more affordable than the current JAA modular system. No appoved ground school required for CPL and ATPL exams, hence you could just buy the books and book in for the exams.
On the CAA self improver route the IR, if done once 700 hours was achieved could be done as a non-approved course where training was done as required and there was not a requirement to do a minimum of 50/55 hour course.
Also as an CAA QFI, you could be teaching the IMC rating and gaining quite a bit of IFR experience prior to taking the IR. I remember seeing BCPL courses for as little as 1200-1500 pounds (in the mid 1990s', compare that to 5000-6000 now for a JAA CPL (even take into account inflation). With the 23% tax relief available prior to 2002 then flight training was alot more affordable prior to JAA.
Also BCPL to CPL upgrade courses were also available for quite some time allowing people to skip the 700 hour requirement.
Educated Hillbilly
Corsair,
The old CAA self improver system was alot more affordable than the current JAA modular system, there was no requirement to do approved groundschools for the CPL or ATPL exams, if the IR was done when 700 hours was reached then a non-approved IR course could be taken which consisted of training as required (ie: no requirement for a 50/55 hours course). As a CAA QFI could instruct for IMC ratings then it was possible to gain a reasonable degree of IFR experience prior to taking the IR, hence for these people a non approved IR course could be accomplished quite quickly.
Add to this that prior to 2002, 23% tax relief was available on flight training then I think you will find the CAA self improver route was alot more affordable. Also BCPL-CPL upgrade courses were available for some time which allowed someone to bypass the 700 hour requirement.
BCPL courses were only about 1200-1500 pound in the mid-nineties, compare that to the price of a JAA CPL course of about 5000 pounds then even taking inflation into account these represents a marked increase in the price of training.
It is true self sponsored ratings have become more prevalent since the introduction of JAA and the removal of the 700 hour requirement, however SSTR are not new, I met a retired airline pilot about a year back who had self sponsored a BAe1-11 rating in his day to get employed.
The old CAA self improver system was alot more affordable than the current JAA modular system, there was no requirement to do approved groundschools for the CPL or ATPL exams, if the IR was done when 700 hours was reached then a non-approved IR course could be taken which consisted of training as required (ie: no requirement for a 50/55 hours course). As a CAA QFI could instruct for IMC ratings then it was possible to gain a reasonable degree of IFR experience prior to taking the IR, hence for these people a non approved IR course could be accomplished quite quickly.
Add to this that prior to 2002, 23% tax relief was available on flight training then I think you will find the CAA self improver route was alot more affordable. Also BCPL-CPL upgrade courses were available for some time which allowed someone to bypass the 700 hour requirement.
BCPL courses were only about 1200-1500 pound in the mid-nineties, compare that to the price of a JAA CPL course of about 5000 pounds then even taking inflation into account these represents a marked increase in the price of training.
It is true self sponsored ratings have become more prevalent since the introduction of JAA and the removal of the 700 hour requirement, however SSTR are not new, I met a retired airline pilot about a year back who had self sponsored a BAe1-11 rating in his day to get employed.
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Yes, this is turning out to be an interesting thread.
Something very important for many of the more experienced pilots to do is highlight the realities of the industry for the wannabes. That is one of the reasons we have pprune is it not? What kind of colleagues would we be if we did not warn the keen new guys and gals of the difficulties of becoming a working pilot, and the problems within the industry once you make it. So please don't attack your more experienced counterparts for giving you some valuble advice, even if it is not positive.
Now I must again highlight the fact that what we do IS A JOB. I love what I do, but it pays the bills. I too have gripes with my company and wish they would pay more, or roster us better. I miss many important events because I get rostered on days that I wish I wasn't. Like I said, I love my job but there are days when I wish I was not at work. Many of us want houses, families and nice cars, so when we complain about certain T and C's it is for a reason. Could we do more to improve T and C's? Probably, but complaining on this website is easier
As far as the airlines are concerned I too do not agree with having to pay for your own type rating. But these airlines are businesses, and if people are still willing to pay for their type rating of course they are going to exploit it. However, don't use the pay for rating scheme as the only excuse for not getting employed. Many, many airlines accross the world still pay for ratings with a bond. Their requirements may be slightly higher, but those people who get those jobs have done the hard graft as an instructor, banner tower, medivac, air taxi etc. Too many newbies look at the thousands of shiny jets and think that is where they want to be as soon as they leave flight school, and when they don't get the job they feel hard done by. Please, set your sights lower from the beginning and it will make you appreciate every opportunity you are given.
The airline industry is just like any other white collar industry in the world. If you want to get in you have to pay for it. Lawyers, architects, engineers, doctors etc spend 10's of thousands of pounds to gain their basic qualification. For doctors and architects it takes about 5-7 years to qualify and only then can they begin to pay back their huge debts. Even when these folks are in their 30s and 40s many are still up to their eyes in debt! I find it difficult to believe that new pilots think they are a different breed to folks in other positions. Most of these industries are in tough times at the moment aswel, so don't think you are the only folk fighting for a few positions with crap T and C's.
Finally, please don't put all your eggs in one basket. With the current economic crisis, it is unlikely many new fATPL holders are going to find an OK paying job right off the bat. Before you begin your career, learn a trade of some sort. If you are up to your eyes in debt with no means of paying it off, it may be your own fault. When you watch TV and hear these stories of people in hellish credit card and other personal debt, how do you think they got into that mess? They were doing what many wannabes are doing and spending money they didn't have without a means to realistically pay it off.
It's quite funny, I look back over this post think I sound like one of those pilots who annoyed me with realities while I was training. The point is now is the time to really take in what the guys are telling you, and take every step towards your goal very carefully so you don't end up in the same mess as many of your counterparts. By no means give up the dream, as it is the best JOB in the world, but dream carefully!
Cheers
DB
Something very important for many of the more experienced pilots to do is highlight the realities of the industry for the wannabes. That is one of the reasons we have pprune is it not? What kind of colleagues would we be if we did not warn the keen new guys and gals of the difficulties of becoming a working pilot, and the problems within the industry once you make it. So please don't attack your more experienced counterparts for giving you some valuble advice, even if it is not positive.
Now I must again highlight the fact that what we do IS A JOB. I love what I do, but it pays the bills. I too have gripes with my company and wish they would pay more, or roster us better. I miss many important events because I get rostered on days that I wish I wasn't. Like I said, I love my job but there are days when I wish I was not at work. Many of us want houses, families and nice cars, so when we complain about certain T and C's it is for a reason. Could we do more to improve T and C's? Probably, but complaining on this website is easier
As far as the airlines are concerned I too do not agree with having to pay for your own type rating. But these airlines are businesses, and if people are still willing to pay for their type rating of course they are going to exploit it. However, don't use the pay for rating scheme as the only excuse for not getting employed. Many, many airlines accross the world still pay for ratings with a bond. Their requirements may be slightly higher, but those people who get those jobs have done the hard graft as an instructor, banner tower, medivac, air taxi etc. Too many newbies look at the thousands of shiny jets and think that is where they want to be as soon as they leave flight school, and when they don't get the job they feel hard done by. Please, set your sights lower from the beginning and it will make you appreciate every opportunity you are given.
The airline industry is just like any other white collar industry in the world. If you want to get in you have to pay for it. Lawyers, architects, engineers, doctors etc spend 10's of thousands of pounds to gain their basic qualification. For doctors and architects it takes about 5-7 years to qualify and only then can they begin to pay back their huge debts. Even when these folks are in their 30s and 40s many are still up to their eyes in debt! I find it difficult to believe that new pilots think they are a different breed to folks in other positions. Most of these industries are in tough times at the moment aswel, so don't think you are the only folk fighting for a few positions with crap T and C's.
Finally, please don't put all your eggs in one basket. With the current economic crisis, it is unlikely many new fATPL holders are going to find an OK paying job right off the bat. Before you begin your career, learn a trade of some sort. If you are up to your eyes in debt with no means of paying it off, it may be your own fault. When you watch TV and hear these stories of people in hellish credit card and other personal debt, how do you think they got into that mess? They were doing what many wannabes are doing and spending money they didn't have without a means to realistically pay it off.
It's quite funny, I look back over this post think I sound like one of those pilots who annoyed me with realities while I was training. The point is now is the time to really take in what the guys are telling you, and take every step towards your goal very carefully so you don't end up in the same mess as many of your counterparts. By no means give up the dream, as it is the best JOB in the world, but dream carefully!
Cheers
DB
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Portharbourflyer, well maybe I exaggerated for effect but it was still expensive and bear in mind banks were far less inclined to lend money to aspirant pilots back then. Not everyone got their 700 hours instructing. Pilots would go to the US to hour build.
Now I stand to be corrected but I think the BCPL was only introduced later because there was an anomaly where PPL's were instructing and getting paid and the CAA wanted to regularise that. Plus it allowed other airwork. Am I wrong?
In any case, my point really is that you really needed to be dedicated to flying to get to the magic 700 hours. It took time and commitment. It may not have been the best system but it certainly weeded out the less than committed.
Desert budgie is right. It is a JOB at the end of the day. Much as I like flying. I love a day off, in spite of the fact I don't get paid for days off. On the other hand when I drop my son off to the creche and get stuck in traffic. I certainly don't envy all the office drones on their way to work. I do envy their stability though and their salary!
Now I stand to be corrected but I think the BCPL was only introduced later because there was an anomaly where PPL's were instructing and getting paid and the CAA wanted to regularise that. Plus it allowed other airwork. Am I wrong?
In any case, my point really is that you really needed to be dedicated to flying to get to the magic 700 hours. It took time and commitment. It may not have been the best system but it certainly weeded out the less than committed.
Desert budgie is right. It is a JOB at the end of the day. Much as I like flying. I love a day off, in spite of the fact I don't get paid for days off. On the other hand when I drop my son off to the creche and get stuck in traffic. I certainly don't envy all the office drones on their way to work. I do envy their stability though and their salary!
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This is what I do :
I never paid for a type rating.
I never paid to work.
When I work as FI I want to be paid well ortherwise I do not work and I work only on fixed salary and definite working hours with a regular contract where extra time is well paid.
When I have to select people for any job I do not take the one who paid for tr and flight experience.
May be if we all apply the above we will end up making monies.
I never paid for a type rating.
I never paid to work.
When I work as FI I want to be paid well ortherwise I do not work and I work only on fixed salary and definite working hours with a regular contract where extra time is well paid.
When I have to select people for any job I do not take the one who paid for tr and flight experience.
May be if we all apply the above we will end up making monies.