So where are all the jobs then?
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I resent that. I'm currently on a TR for Ryanair, and i'm working DAMN hard at it - that is why i'm passing. If I loafed off, then I wouldn't, simple as.
What your previous post implies is that unless you have god like hours flying SE, or tooling around the skies gathering hours, it must be some sort of miracle that people pass type ratings - I assure you this isn't the case.
What your previous post implies is that unless you have god like hours flying SE, or tooling around the skies gathering hours, it must be some sort of miracle that people pass type ratings - I assure you this isn't the case.
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I can tell you that the FR type rating is certainly NOT an "easy pass". It is hard work and people do fail it. The fact that you have to pay your own way is even more of an incentive to work hard as catch up sessions are very expensive. Some of the quotes on this page are a classic example of people who don't have a clue what they are talking about mouthing off about FR.
Ejetsetter, you disgust me. yet another example of some
undermining the hard work and professionalism of ryanair flight crew. The fact that everyone on this website seems to hate ryanair is one thing, I couldn't care less as I get paid well by them and enjoy my job, but when someone who I asume is a pilot and therefore should know better is belitteling my profession... I take offence. I worked hard but I sure as hell diddn't bribe my TRE for an "Easy Pass" on my skill test.
Ejetsetter, you disgust me. yet another example of some
undermining the hard work and professionalism of ryanair flight crew. The fact that everyone on this website seems to hate ryanair is one thing, I couldn't care less as I get paid well by them and enjoy my job, but when someone who I asume is a pilot and therefore should know better is belitteling my profession... I take offence. I worked hard but I sure as hell diddn't bribe my TRE for an "Easy Pass" on my skill test.
Last edited by as17; 2nd Jan 2008 at 03:08.
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Ejetsetter, you disgust me. yet another example of some undermining the hard work and professionalism of ryanair flight crew
That's an oxymoron. I respect that you feel you worked damn hard for the job; let's face it the lot of us do. But what kills me is that fact that a) you felt to pay for something that should be given to you for the amount all ready paid, and b) your person in the largest LCC. The majority of opinons both inside and outside the company feel that FR is a machine when it comes to the money earned on training. The needs of the many outwit the needs of the few.
Let me ask you that hard work you felt needed to be attained to get you SSTR, you could of I don't know FIed and known what hard work is. Students are that Murphy's Law of aviation; and to truely know how to survive it one must experience it.
You disgust me because you are a low-houred FR moron who just is happy to have his first jet.
Yet I think most pilots feel both more obligated and even harder worked to know that a) they're getting paid during TR and b) its through the company.
Not at all, what I'm saying is that unless you have God like flying hours you shouldn't have a jet. If you were a Twin-turbine I'd say cool, I understand that but a jet?
Thank God you don't live in the States.
By the way, with hard work anything is possible and I respect you feel this way, but as a FI who sat in a FR interview; I felt that was no hardwork at all.
undermining the hard work and professionalism of ryanair flight crewThat's an oxymoron. I respect that you feel you worked damn hard for the job; let's face it the lot of us do. But what kills me is that fact that a) you felt to pay for something that should be given to you for the amount all ready paid, and b) your person in the largest LCC. The majority of opinons both inside and outside the company feel that FR is a machine when it comes to the money earned on training. The needs of the many outwit the needs of the few.
Let me ask you that hard work you felt needed to be attained to get you SSTR, you could of I don't know FIed and known what hard work is. Students are that Murphy's Law of aviation; and to truely know how to survive it one must experience it.
You disgust me because you are a low-houred FR moron who just is happy to have his first jet.
I can tell you that the FR type rating is certainly NOT an "easy pass". It is hard work and people do fail it. The fact that you have to pay your own way is even more of an incentive to work hard as catch up sessions are very expensive
What your previous post implies is that unless you have god like hours flying SE, or tooling around the skies gathering hours, it must be some sort of miracle that people pass type ratings - I assure you this isn't the case.
Thank God you don't live in the States.
By the way, with hard work anything is possible and I respect you feel this way, but as a FI who sat in a FR interview; I felt that was no hardwork at all.
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Might I ask why..
..you feel this?
I was more than happy to fly what I could get, and be paid to fly. I applied to CityJet, for example (a smaller operator) and was told I wasn't required, yet they call guys up with less hours than me begging them to come to interview, as they were integrated!? Doesn't make any sense. Ryanair (love them or hate them) looked at me as a candidate with a licence, who proved my skill in the relevant flight test. It didn't matter what the school's name was worth, or how much I paid. If they flew turboprops, or something else, i'd have still applied, because I tried to sow my seed far and wide to secure a job.
The jobs market in the USA and Europe I don't feel can be compared anymore. The UK has little to offer in the way of air taxi operations or anything that would allow someone a reasonable stepping stone up to the big time - the USA on the other hand has a developed 'path' to the legacy carriers. People in the UK regularly go into jet jobs with 200 hours, and perform adequately on type ratings, with FR or otherwise. The simple reality is if they didn't, they wouldn't pass, and the airlines would stop taking them on - this isn't happening.
Incidentally, Ryanair don't actually have their own flight school, are you telling us that all pilots from CAE or SAS have easy passes in TR exams? You won't make friends that way, they are major training establishments!
Not at all, what I'm saying is that unless you have God like flying hours you shouldn't have a jet. If you were a Twin-turbine I'd say cool, I understand that but a jet?
I was more than happy to fly what I could get, and be paid to fly. I applied to CityJet, for example (a smaller operator) and was told I wasn't required, yet they call guys up with less hours than me begging them to come to interview, as they were integrated!? Doesn't make any sense. Ryanair (love them or hate them) looked at me as a candidate with a licence, who proved my skill in the relevant flight test. It didn't matter what the school's name was worth, or how much I paid. If they flew turboprops, or something else, i'd have still applied, because I tried to sow my seed far and wide to secure a job.
The jobs market in the USA and Europe I don't feel can be compared anymore. The UK has little to offer in the way of air taxi operations or anything that would allow someone a reasonable stepping stone up to the big time - the USA on the other hand has a developed 'path' to the legacy carriers. People in the UK regularly go into jet jobs with 200 hours, and perform adequately on type ratings, with FR or otherwise. The simple reality is if they didn't, they wouldn't pass, and the airlines would stop taking them on - this isn't happening.
Incidentally, Ryanair don't actually have their own flight school, are you telling us that all pilots from CAE or SAS have easy passes in TR exams? You won't make friends that way, they are major training establishments!
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Thank God you don't live in the States.
Regional pilots in the US are getting screwed (and selling out the profession) far more than Ryanair pilots.
I'm not a fan of Ryanair in the slightest.
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I have to agree with the hours thing though.
Starting on an airliner with minimum hours used to be only for a select few. The good old boys who were sponsored in days gone by or whatever. Not any Tom Dick or Herbert who has the financial backing just to fulfill their 'dream'. I am a firm believer in that people should serve an apprenticeship in aviation. If you want to pay your way in thats fine, some people are never going to agree with it. Just have a look at it from the other side of the fence Horgy etal, before passing opinions on the merits of more experienced wannabees than yourselves. Many are from the camp which built up hours teaching PPL/CPL & IR and then went onto fly charter & TPs etc. You will find that the majority of the Captains you are going to share the flight deck with will also come from similair backgrounds, as do the guys that interview you. I have to say that I would have to think twice about letting my wife and kids get in a PA28 with a 200hour pilot. But its not the same as an airliner with a 200hr hotshot at the yoke you say? I know! and hopefully the skipper is switched on! Think about it. It may go some way to explain why people have opinions on low hour cadets handling an 80 ton aircraft with very limited aviation backgrounds. Limited or no real experience of real world conditions, out of the safe pat me on the back and try again training environment.
'I know who I would rather fly with', an opinion shared by nearly every other line Captain you meet when the subject pops into conversation. Newbees with zero hours and no commercial experience, bar a small minority are considered hard work on the flight deck. Fact!
With things the way they are in the job market now, having hours from a good aviation background are only going to help you. Either that or pay someone for a job and bypass all that valuable experience. Certainly dont waste time twiddling your thumbs waiting for those cvs to be read, be proactive and do the FI rating, fly a tug etc. You will always have more respect, if not more hours than the next man.
Starting on an airliner with minimum hours used to be only for a select few. The good old boys who were sponsored in days gone by or whatever. Not any Tom Dick or Herbert who has the financial backing just to fulfill their 'dream'. I am a firm believer in that people should serve an apprenticeship in aviation. If you want to pay your way in thats fine, some people are never going to agree with it. Just have a look at it from the other side of the fence Horgy etal, before passing opinions on the merits of more experienced wannabees than yourselves. Many are from the camp which built up hours teaching PPL/CPL & IR and then went onto fly charter & TPs etc. You will find that the majority of the Captains you are going to share the flight deck with will also come from similair backgrounds, as do the guys that interview you. I have to say that I would have to think twice about letting my wife and kids get in a PA28 with a 200hour pilot. But its not the same as an airliner with a 200hr hotshot at the yoke you say? I know! and hopefully the skipper is switched on! Think about it. It may go some way to explain why people have opinions on low hour cadets handling an 80 ton aircraft with very limited aviation backgrounds. Limited or no real experience of real world conditions, out of the safe pat me on the back and try again training environment.
'I know who I would rather fly with', an opinion shared by nearly every other line Captain you meet when the subject pops into conversation. Newbees with zero hours and no commercial experience, bar a small minority are considered hard work on the flight deck. Fact!
With things the way they are in the job market now, having hours from a good aviation background are only going to help you. Either that or pay someone for a job and bypass all that valuable experience. Certainly dont waste time twiddling your thumbs waiting for those cvs to be read, be proactive and do the FI rating, fly a tug etc. You will always have more respect, if not more hours than the next man.
The majority of capts in my company were either sponsored cadets or ex-mil. Very, very few are ex-instructors. Furthermore, the majority of our TRIs/TREs are ex-cadets and, on my particular fleet, our Training Standard Captains are ex-cadets so I think the broad-brush statements like:
can be extremely misleading.
Furthermore
doesn't really hold much water since this applies to many of the F/Os in BA and our passenger figures are (amazingly I admit) very good.
And finally, before anyone suggests I have some axe to grind, I built time on SEPs before getting a job on TPs then moving to jets.
You will find that the majority of the Captains you are going to share the flight deck with will also come from similair backgrounds, as do the guys that interview you.
Furthermore
It may go some way to explain why people have opinions on low hour cadets handling an 80 ton aircraft with very limited aviation backgrounds. Limited or no real experience of real world conditions,
And finally, before anyone suggests I have some axe to grind, I built time on SEPs before getting a job on TPs then moving to jets.
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Is that Ham Phisted of BA fame again? Bar BA as mentioned in previous post quote 'sponsored in days gone by' you will find that most Captains etc in most 'other'
airlines apart from yours come from similair backgrounds. Accepted that you have worked elsewhere apart from Gods airline, your post reads just as biased as the rest Nigel.
airlines apart from yours come from similair backgrounds. Accepted that you have worked elsewhere apart from Gods airline, your post reads just as biased as the rest Nigel.
Bar BA and its 3000+ pilots! Very representative 
There's nowt wrong with cadets. I like flying with them.
This debate is of the same level of interest as the Modular vs Integrated. So lets give it a rest fellas.
This debate is of the same level of interest as the Modular vs Integrated. So lets give it a rest fellas.
Agreed.
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Is that Ham Phisted of BA fame again? Bar BA as mentioned in previous post quote 'sponsored in days gone by' you will find that most Captains etc in most 'other' airlines apart from yours come from similair backgrounds. Accepted that you have worked elsewhere apart from Gods airline, your post reads just as biased as the rest Nigel.
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Ok then, it sounds like you are saying that half of the UK airline pilot workforce started out as a cadet. Am I right? This being someone who went straight from training and into airline employment. We are not talking ex RAF top guns now are we? Simply the bare minimum hours with the necessary licence and ratings. i.e green as grass to jet. It would be interesting to see whether a poll would back up this theory.... Nothing against cadets either!
Quote to your hearts content!
Quote to your hearts content!
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We are not talking ex RAF top guns now are we?
I think what BA does very well is integrate a wide array of backgrounds and experiences into its pilot body, whether that be low hours guys directly from Oxford, guys from TPs, guys already on type, guys from the military etc etc. They all bring something different to the party.
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Mr. Horgy I feel this due to their needs to be a progression before one goes to 400 kph. With a great powerful aircraft comes great responsibility and one needs to have the 1000 hrs to turely understand the power. Plus for you it gives you a more credible CV, meaning more options, meaning more possibility for a PTR.
Now for Carbheatin's comments; most airlines you speak about are turbo-prop ops who most American pilots know hire low-houred skippers. Plus for all pilots the first year is difficult then it improves after that.
Now for Carbheatin's comments; most airlines you speak about are turbo-prop ops who most American pilots know hire low-houred skippers. Plus for all pilots the first year is difficult then it improves after that.
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Agree with SR, to be selected for fast jet training in RAF means you are well above most in aptitude(not ex RAF myself).The selection at OAT is not & could not be so stringent.They do not compare.Had a mate who graduated from OAT in 2001,got a job eventually(years later)he just kept plugging away,flight instruction etc.
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I'm not comparing them, just not sure to what degree the competencies or characteristics of a good fast jet pilot compare to those of a good airline pilot. Interestingly enough, it is stated in the Netjets thread (Bizjet forum) that there is a higher failure rate for command upgrade candidates with an RAF background than for candidates with a general aviation background.