Astraeus
Hogg - well put. Night freighting is of course more than Sheds and 748's and many's the day I wish I didn't move SLF. I doubt any of your pallets ever gets out of his head on Tamazopan and wine in the departure terminal etc. etc. 
Good to see Britannia recently hiring low time guys with nothing more than a traditional bond. And someone must have been hiring for the Dash 8 Q400 as one has been doing base training circuits over my house for most of the afternoon...
Things are picking up, the economists are raising predicitons for the UK economy. The British are buying property abroad in record numbers as the Germans and Scandies sell up. The web is leading to more and more international freight (I just took delivery of 4 shirts from Germany today as example). The trains continue to be both rubbish and expensive and driving is misery.
The business is set for significant growth and that means more pilots required.
Good luck,
WWW
Good to see Britannia recently hiring low time guys with nothing more than a traditional bond. And someone must have been hiring for the Dash 8 Q400 as one has been doing base training circuits over my house for most of the afternoon...
Things are picking up, the economists are raising predicitons for the UK economy. The British are buying property abroad in record numbers as the Germans and Scandies sell up. The web is leading to more and more international freight (I just took delivery of 4 shirts from Germany today as example). The trains continue to be both rubbish and expensive and driving is misery.
The business is set for significant growth and that means more pilots required.
Good luck,
WWW
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Snigs and WWW
Why SNIGS, do you think that you pay £500 a month back out of salary if you are bonded? The whole aim of a bond is to make you stay. e.g. , you join a DECENT airline, shall we say THOMAS COOK or MONARCH? You sign a bond for say £12000 over 3 years. If you stay three years and then leave, you owe them nothing. If you leave after 3 months you owe them 33 months of bond at a decaying rate. i.e. 33/36ths.
WWW, you should be wary of agreeing with people who do not understand how such systems work. You are a moderator and should be monitoring incorrect nonsense.
LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
Am I correct in my understanding of a normal bond?
HAMRAH
You seem to have gone quiet...
Why SNIGS, do you think that you pay £500 a month back out of salary if you are bonded? The whole aim of a bond is to make you stay. e.g. , you join a DECENT airline, shall we say THOMAS COOK or MONARCH? You sign a bond for say £12000 over 3 years. If you stay three years and then leave, you owe them nothing. If you leave after 3 months you owe them 33 months of bond at a decaying rate. i.e. 33/36ths.
WWW, you should be wary of agreeing with people who do not understand how such systems work. You are a moderator and should be monitoring incorrect nonsense.
LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK
Am I correct in my understanding of a normal bond?
HAMRAH
You seem to have gone quiet...
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Tailscrape,
I've said my piece. It would be inappropriate for me to contribute further.
As I said, the debate on paying/not paying for type ratings will go on regardless.
H
I've said my piece. It would be inappropriate for me to contribute further.
As I said, the debate on paying/not paying for type ratings will go on regardless.
H
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Tailscrape,
That is my understanding of a bond. It is repaid on a sliding scale depending upon how much time you have left if you decide to move on. If you leave early in the period you will pay more.
I was bonded when I joined a Charter airline 5 years ago for a 3 year period. I watched several people leave in that time to go to Virgin and they had to get their cheque book out but whether bonds are legally enforceable is still in my opinion a very grey area.
Whilst realising that the employment market is changing, I find it disconcerting that a multitude of contributors on this thread are lending credence to this further degradation & erosion of the industry terms and conditions of pilots. Included, are, unfortunately, some of the moderators.
That is their right of course but in the last 5 years since I have been flying, salaries have reduced in real terms, final salary pensions schemes have shut and the emphasis of training risk has shifted significantly from airline to applicant. Maybe its a case of "I'm alright jack."
Ask yourself whether an airline manager has to pass 2 separate sim assessments per year, an annual medical, SEP exams, an annual line check etc, etc and have to pay £25k in the process with no guarantee of a job at the end of it, let alone the circa £45k it took to get them there in the first place.
I feel ashamed that we seem to be going inexorably down a self-destruction path and cheapening the job to that of a train driver because the terms and conditions gap is now almost negligible.
That is my understanding of a bond. It is repaid on a sliding scale depending upon how much time you have left if you decide to move on. If you leave early in the period you will pay more.
I was bonded when I joined a Charter airline 5 years ago for a 3 year period. I watched several people leave in that time to go to Virgin and they had to get their cheque book out but whether bonds are legally enforceable is still in my opinion a very grey area.
Whilst realising that the employment market is changing, I find it disconcerting that a multitude of contributors on this thread are lending credence to this further degradation & erosion of the industry terms and conditions of pilots. Included, are, unfortunately, some of the moderators.
That is their right of course but in the last 5 years since I have been flying, salaries have reduced in real terms, final salary pensions schemes have shut and the emphasis of training risk has shifted significantly from airline to applicant. Maybe its a case of "I'm alright jack."
Ask yourself whether an airline manager has to pass 2 separate sim assessments per year, an annual medical, SEP exams, an annual line check etc, etc and have to pay £25k in the process with no guarantee of a job at the end of it, let alone the circa £45k it took to get them there in the first place.
I feel ashamed that we seem to be going inexorably down a self-destruction path and cheapening the job to that of a train driver because the terms and conditions gap is now almost negligible.
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Different airlines have different bond schemes. Some (usually the older, well-established ones) contract you to repayment of a bond only if you voluntarily leave their employment during the bond period. Others require the 'bond' (really their training costs) to be repaid over the bond period, whether or not you leave. Both schemes are in fairly widespread use.
To correct one or two of you who commented a page or two ago (I've been away at work), I have never advocated paying for a type rating. If you care to look at a cross-section of my many posts on the subject, I have always expressed my opposition to the principle of self-funded type ratings. However, I cannot ignore the commercial realities of the current employment market, which is very tight. There are type ratings available, which may make you more employable, and those with the money will go and pay for them. If you fit into that category, then the Bond/Astraeus scheme is one of the best available.
If, however, you either cannot afford or refuse on principle to go down that route, I entirely understand and support your position. But you must understand that the employment market does not work on principles of fairness, and will give little or no credit for your stand. The bean-counters that scrutinise every expense an airline incurs don't give a damn about what trials and tribulations you have gone through to get your ATPL; all they are interested in is getting the smallest number of pilots they can get away with at the lowest cost. That is what you are up against.
It is no good preparing yourself for this industry on a perception of how you would like it to be. You have to understand and accept how it is, or decide that another field of work might suit you better. One of the fundamental truths about the airline industry is that its margins are lower than almost all other commercial ventures - over the hundred years of its existence, it has not made a profit. Yes, certain years have been good - but the bad years exceed the good by a large proportion! If you want to work for an industry that has money to spare to cossett its employees, and to indulge their sense of commercial right and wrong, don't join civil aviation! Only governments, on the whole (and possibly Microsoft!), can afford such social-minded employment policies.
This is a cold, cold world. In a while things will get better - for a time, then the cycle will happen again. Remember that.
To correct one or two of you who commented a page or two ago (I've been away at work), I have never advocated paying for a type rating. If you care to look at a cross-section of my many posts on the subject, I have always expressed my opposition to the principle of self-funded type ratings. However, I cannot ignore the commercial realities of the current employment market, which is very tight. There are type ratings available, which may make you more employable, and those with the money will go and pay for them. If you fit into that category, then the Bond/Astraeus scheme is one of the best available.
If, however, you either cannot afford or refuse on principle to go down that route, I entirely understand and support your position. But you must understand that the employment market does not work on principles of fairness, and will give little or no credit for your stand. The bean-counters that scrutinise every expense an airline incurs don't give a damn about what trials and tribulations you have gone through to get your ATPL; all they are interested in is getting the smallest number of pilots they can get away with at the lowest cost. That is what you are up against.
It is no good preparing yourself for this industry on a perception of how you would like it to be. You have to understand and accept how it is, or decide that another field of work might suit you better. One of the fundamental truths about the airline industry is that its margins are lower than almost all other commercial ventures - over the hundred years of its existence, it has not made a profit. Yes, certain years have been good - but the bad years exceed the good by a large proportion! If you want to work for an industry that has money to spare to cossett its employees, and to indulge their sense of commercial right and wrong, don't join civil aviation! Only governments, on the whole (and possibly Microsoft!), can afford such social-minded employment policies.
This is a cold, cold world. In a while things will get better - for a time, then the cycle will happen again. Remember that.
Last edited by scroggs; 29th Aug 2003 at 01:45.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Tailscrape,
I stand corrected on the fact that some bonds are as you outline, but companies offering these type of bonds are getting fewer. I was referring to the "bonds" that start you on a lower salary in order for the company to recoup their training costs, as scroggs points out.
So wind your neck in a little please.
I stand corrected on the fact that some bonds are as you outline, but companies offering these type of bonds are getting fewer. I was referring to the "bonds" that start you on a lower salary in order for the company to recoup their training costs, as scroggs points out.
So wind your neck in a little please.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Crashdive,
WIth all due respect there are some things regarding easyJet that you aren't quite accurate on.
From easyJet's website.
So to apply to easyJet after gaining a type rating from Astraeus would mean that the recruit (assuming s/he was a relatively low houred pilot) would have to do the rating with easyJet/CTC again.
WIth all due respect there are some things regarding easyJet that you aren't quite accurate on.
Further assuming that an airline then happens to employ you, and being that you are already a type-rated pilot, there’s then no need ( or excuse ) for you to be joining them on a reduced salary for X number of years.
From easyJet's website.
To qualify as a 737 type rated pilot, we prefer a minimum of 500 hours on type within the last 5 years.
For SFO's there are 2 ways to join the airline: our Direct Entry Scheme and our Type Rating Sponsorship Scheme (TRSS).
First Officers (FO's) have a frozen ATPL (CPL + ATPL theory) and a minimum of 500 hours. FO's can only join the airline through our TRSS scheme.
First Officers (FO's) have a frozen ATPL (CPL + ATPL theory) and a minimum of 500 hours. FO's can only join the airline through our TRSS scheme.
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snigs
What an arrogant little post that was. You did not make your point clearly, and you were corrected by people with considerably more experience of the subject than you.
So, please do not tell me to wind my neck in! You were corrected fairly.
The way they bond people in the SENECA world may be different to the established airlines too. I wouldn't comment on that though, because i do not know.......
So, before you pick a fight, I suggest you ask yourself what you are posting before you post more tosh.
What an arrogant little post that was. You did not make your point clearly, and you were corrected by people with considerably more experience of the subject than you.
So, please do not tell me to wind my neck in! You were corrected fairly.
The way they bond people in the SENECA world may be different to the established airlines too. I wouldn't comment on that though, because i do not know.......
So, before you pick a fight, I suggest you ask yourself what you are posting before you post more tosh.
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Hi Red’s.
For starters, Astraeus do NOT do type-ratings as they do not have TRTO approval from the CAA – it is Bond Aviation that do the type-rating courses !
W.r.t. a pilots experience level - it would be fair to say that while all airlines ‘prefer’ to recruit people with lots of hours, the very use of the word ‘prefer’ shows that this is subject to some interpretation.
That said, if an airline wishes to pay people according to a scale, based upon the persons level of experience, then that is entirely their prerogative.
Now it’s interesting that you raise eJ in this, because I know for a fact that three people have joined eJ as a result of having ( self sponsored ) a type-rating which they just happened to have completed with Bond Aviation - albeit that they might have done their type-rating with any of CAE, CTC, Flight Safety Boeing, GECAT, et al.
To my knowledge the only ‘extra’ these people required to do was some simulator associated with a ‘differences course’ to allow them to also fly the B737-700/NG - albeit that this would already be included within their licenses type-ratings page.
In general I very much doubt that eJ would require somebody to re-do their type-rating, especially so when that person is newly type-rated already, as this would require the airline to spend money ( i.e. CTC would want paying by eJ
) and all airlines just hate spending money on unnecessary training !
Whilst I’m not privy to what salary level these new eJ pilots are on, being that they arrived through the eJ doors already type-rated they should not be bonded ( one hopes ).
Of course whether these people would have got their jobs with eJ, had they not had the B737 type-rating already stamped within their licenses, is a matter for conjecture – but what do you think ?
For starters, Astraeus do NOT do type-ratings as they do not have TRTO approval from the CAA – it is Bond Aviation that do the type-rating courses !
W.r.t. a pilots experience level - it would be fair to say that while all airlines ‘prefer’ to recruit people with lots of hours, the very use of the word ‘prefer’ shows that this is subject to some interpretation.
That said, if an airline wishes to pay people according to a scale, based upon the persons level of experience, then that is entirely their prerogative.
Now it’s interesting that you raise eJ in this, because I know for a fact that three people have joined eJ as a result of having ( self sponsored ) a type-rating which they just happened to have completed with Bond Aviation - albeit that they might have done their type-rating with any of CAE, CTC, Flight Safety Boeing, GECAT, et al.
To my knowledge the only ‘extra’ these people required to do was some simulator associated with a ‘differences course’ to allow them to also fly the B737-700/NG - albeit that this would already be included within their licenses type-ratings page.
In general I very much doubt that eJ would require somebody to re-do their type-rating, especially so when that person is newly type-rated already, as this would require the airline to spend money ( i.e. CTC would want paying by eJ
) and all airlines just hate spending money on unnecessary training !Whilst I’m not privy to what salary level these new eJ pilots are on, being that they arrived through the eJ doors already type-rated they should not be bonded ( one hopes ).
Of course whether these people would have got their jobs with eJ, had they not had the B737 type-rating already stamped within their licenses, is a matter for conjecture – but what do you think ?
Last edited by CrashDive; 30th Aug 2003 at 00:02.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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I'm sorry, but I have to reply!
You're sure, definitely sure????
I conceded the point, but you missed mine................
You're an aggressive little person aren't you??
You mention arrogance, no further comment tailscrape
you were corrected by people with considerably more experience of the subject than you.
So, please do not tell me to wind my neck in! You were corrected fairly.
You're an aggressive little person aren't you??
You mention arrogance, no further comment tailscrape
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Whilst I’m not privy to what salary level these new eJ pilots are on, being that they arrived through the eJ doors already type-rated they should not be bonded ( one hopes ).
Until all airlines are using common SOP's I guess there will always be the need for some form of training and by extension an excuse to saddle the pilot with another bond/cost.
If this thread suggest what the future of civil aviation is going to be, then my dream is over. I cannot justify the expense for the return on investment. 85,000 pounds on training for an initial income of (at the very best) 35,000 pounds, something just doesnt add up.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 31st Aug 2003 at 00:18.
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Pups, I know how you feel, mate. I sincerely hope it will get better (as it did after the last recession in aviation), and that self-funded type ratings are soon but a distant memory!
One can but hope!
Scroggs
One can but hope!
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
Your thoughts are appreciated. Sadly I fear that paid for type ratings are here to stay. As I said previously, the bean counters and those providing the training are making too much money out of this to let it go easily. For example, I doubt if a certain airline would have survivied the winter months when their business drops by half if they hadn't had the financial support of a sister company that provides type rating training. The two most profitable airlines in Europe are forcing the cost and risk of training onto their employees.
The beancounters must be having wet dreams about the lengths that some people are willing to go to to become the pilot of a 737.
My only hope is that at some point the puddle of people who can afford to pay for a type rating dries up and airlines are forced into training their own people at their own expense again. I am not optomistic. History has shown that once it has become ingrained in the "system" it wont go back. It wasn't long ago when airlines paid for instrument ratings, cyclic dip came along people paid for IR's to be more marketable. Next cyclic dip and bonding became fashionable, that now seems angelic in comparison to what is happening thses days. MCC was another cost supposedly to be borne by airlines, it is now a requirement on the cv before you are considered for interview. Type ratings will be the next requirement. Whats next? Having x number of hours in your log book makes a pilot more attractive to other employers, maybe profesional pilots will be deducted a certain amount per flown hour in the future, who knows what the next cost will be?
PPRuNe was instrumental in keeping the fire that has been burning in my sizable belly to be a commercial pilot. I had hoped that this may have been a place where some form of resistance to paid for type ratings could occur, similar to the campaign against flagging out a few years ago. Alas no. BALPA arent interested, IPA dont have any clout and there seems to be little option other than to bend over the barrell and let the airlines have their wicked financial way with us.
It's enough to make me weep. In fact, it does make me weep.
Your thoughts are appreciated. Sadly I fear that paid for type ratings are here to stay. As I said previously, the bean counters and those providing the training are making too much money out of this to let it go easily. For example, I doubt if a certain airline would have survivied the winter months when their business drops by half if they hadn't had the financial support of a sister company that provides type rating training. The two most profitable airlines in Europe are forcing the cost and risk of training onto their employees.
The beancounters must be having wet dreams about the lengths that some people are willing to go to to become the pilot of a 737.
My only hope is that at some point the puddle of people who can afford to pay for a type rating dries up and airlines are forced into training their own people at their own expense again. I am not optomistic. History has shown that once it has become ingrained in the "system" it wont go back. It wasn't long ago when airlines paid for instrument ratings, cyclic dip came along people paid for IR's to be more marketable. Next cyclic dip and bonding became fashionable, that now seems angelic in comparison to what is happening thses days. MCC was another cost supposedly to be borne by airlines, it is now a requirement on the cv before you are considered for interview. Type ratings will be the next requirement. Whats next? Having x number of hours in your log book makes a pilot more attractive to other employers, maybe profesional pilots will be deducted a certain amount per flown hour in the future, who knows what the next cost will be?
PPRuNe was instrumental in keeping the fire that has been burning in my sizable belly to be a commercial pilot. I had hoped that this may have been a place where some form of resistance to paid for type ratings could occur, similar to the campaign against flagging out a few years ago. Alas no. BALPA arent interested, IPA dont have any clout and there seems to be little option other than to bend over the barrell and let the airlines have their wicked financial way with us.
It's enough to make me weep. In fact, it does make me weep.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Crashy,
Mea Culpa regarding Bond v Astraeus. I have seen paper work and receipts for a guy who did some training with Bond and they had "Astraeus" written on them. Also I have seen some paper work with "Bond" written on it with exactly the same logo style as Astraeus so it's an easy mistake to make.
Yes, I know one of the guys you speak of. He got in just prior to easyJet's new scheme. The website info is pretty clear though.
Flypuppy & Scroggs,
Sadly, I do think type rating schemes are becoming the norm. Southwest and Virgin Blue do them too. Admittedly, with VB the cost is about $A17-19K and you'll earn $A65K+ in the first year. (After 2 years you'll get at least $A10K loyalty bonus to do with as you wish)
There is a difference however with buying a rating with the hope of getting a job versus a job being guaranteed upon completion.
Mea Culpa regarding Bond v Astraeus. I have seen paper work and receipts for a guy who did some training with Bond and they had "Astraeus" written on them. Also I have seen some paper work with "Bond" written on it with exactly the same logo style as Astraeus so it's an easy mistake to make.
Yes, I know one of the guys you speak of. He got in just prior to easyJet's new scheme. The website info is pretty clear though.
Flypuppy & Scroggs,
Sadly, I do think type rating schemes are becoming the norm. Southwest and Virgin Blue do them too. Admittedly, with VB the cost is about $A17-19K and you'll earn $A65K+ in the first year. (After 2 years you'll get at least $A10K loyalty bonus to do with as you wish)
There is a difference however with buying a rating with the hope of getting a job versus a job being guaranteed upon completion.
I know what the website says for easyJet. The reality is though that people with type ratings and signed off on a final line check are getting jobs with little conventional bonding.
Those boys and girls will be earning £46,000 in two years time with the shot at a command the year after.
A handsome return on their training investment...
Similarly 99% of those who completed the £20,000 Ryanair type rating are now sitting pretty.
I don't believe self sponsored type ratings will become the norm. For the last 2 years there has simply been no recruiting of inexperienced pilots. The pool of experienced pilots is now more or less empty and thus we are seeing a plethora of schemes aimed at low time pilots. In a few years all the good candidates will have been sucked up and airlines will change the schemes to take more of the risk on themselves and thus attract the better candidates. Pretty soon after that it'll become open season just like 1998/1999/2000/2001.
Airlines were SPONSORING cadets at a prodigious rate. I remember one airline rep lamenting the fact that there weren't enough youngsters interested in becoming a pilot anymore.
I remember airlines throwing extra hours at weak cadets because they HAD to have them graduate.
I remember airlines sniffing around schools asking the CFI for a list of 'good chaps' to interview as they hadn't quite recruited enough cadets.
I remember people telling me similar stories of 1988/1989/1990.
Roll on 2009/2010.
WWW
ps Tailscrape, you wrote:
Snigs and WWW
Why SNIGS, do you think that you pay £500 a month back out of salary if you are bonded? The whole aim of a bond is to make you stay. e.g. , you join a DECENT airline, shall we say THOMAS COOK or MONARCH? You sign a bond for say £12000 over 3 years. If you stay three years and then leave, you owe them nothing. If you leave after 3 months you owe them 33 months of bond at a decaying rate. i.e. 33/36ths.
WWW, you should be wary of agreeing with people who do not understand how such systems work. You are a moderator and should be monitoring incorrect nonsense.
Join a 'decent' airline if you want to. Except they aren't recruiting other than through CTC. And when you get in its dead mans shoes for 12 years. Quite a few FO's from 'decent' airlines now share my crewroom.
When Monarch and ThomasCook are recruiting 14 courses of low time pilots a year then easyJet and Ryanair will probably drop their type rating charging. But right now its a buyers market and don't for one minute try to give the impression that Monarch or BA for that matter wouldn't charge people for jobs - if indeed they had any that needed filling.
I will continue to monitor incorrect nonsense thank you - although you seem to enjoy acting as unofficial moderator yourself. Imitation is of course the highest form of flattery.
Those boys and girls will be earning £46,000 in two years time with the shot at a command the year after.
A handsome return on their training investment...
Similarly 99% of those who completed the £20,000 Ryanair type rating are now sitting pretty.
I don't believe self sponsored type ratings will become the norm. For the last 2 years there has simply been no recruiting of inexperienced pilots. The pool of experienced pilots is now more or less empty and thus we are seeing a plethora of schemes aimed at low time pilots. In a few years all the good candidates will have been sucked up and airlines will change the schemes to take more of the risk on themselves and thus attract the better candidates. Pretty soon after that it'll become open season just like 1998/1999/2000/2001.
Airlines were SPONSORING cadets at a prodigious rate. I remember one airline rep lamenting the fact that there weren't enough youngsters interested in becoming a pilot anymore.
I remember airlines throwing extra hours at weak cadets because they HAD to have them graduate.
I remember airlines sniffing around schools asking the CFI for a list of 'good chaps' to interview as they hadn't quite recruited enough cadets.
I remember people telling me similar stories of 1988/1989/1990.
Roll on 2009/2010.
WWW
ps Tailscrape, you wrote:
Snigs and WWW
Why SNIGS, do you think that you pay £500 a month back out of salary if you are bonded? The whole aim of a bond is to make you stay. e.g. , you join a DECENT airline, shall we say THOMAS COOK or MONARCH? You sign a bond for say £12000 over 3 years. If you stay three years and then leave, you owe them nothing. If you leave after 3 months you owe them 33 months of bond at a decaying rate. i.e. 33/36ths.
WWW, you should be wary of agreeing with people who do not understand how such systems work. You are a moderator and should be monitoring incorrect nonsense.
Join a 'decent' airline if you want to. Except they aren't recruiting other than through CTC. And when you get in its dead mans shoes for 12 years. Quite a few FO's from 'decent' airlines now share my crewroom.
When Monarch and ThomasCook are recruiting 14 courses of low time pilots a year then easyJet and Ryanair will probably drop their type rating charging. But right now its a buyers market and don't for one minute try to give the impression that Monarch or BA for that matter wouldn't charge people for jobs - if indeed they had any that needed filling.
I will continue to monitor incorrect nonsense thank you - although you seem to enjoy acting as unofficial moderator yourself. Imitation is of course the highest form of flattery.
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A handsome return on their training investment...
Bare Minimum outlay for training to gain fATPL/IR/MCC ₤45,000
If we ignore the financial responsibility for a Type Rating @ £23,000 then from the EZY website:
First years pay £26,789 so the first years return on investment -59%
Not what I call a handsome return on investment.
To me a handsome return on investment would be initial sum + 10%, so if I were running a business, I would be looking for a return of £49,500, based on my initial outlay of £45,000.
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WWW ,
The day I imitate you will be the day the world ends.
Your acceptance of the fact that people should pay for ratings is sad. I hope you enjoy the terms you get when you have to leave easy because you can take no more grief.....
As for lots of people joining easy from "decent" airlines? Not that many WWW I suggest. Many look, but most stay where they are, because the grass is not always greener.............
Quick upgrades are not everything WWW remember. And eJ are now offering Direct Entry Commands to SFO rank pilots from elsewhere. Probably because they can't get enough quality candidates by fair means...........
The day I imitate you will be the day the world ends.
Your acceptance of the fact that people should pay for ratings is sad. I hope you enjoy the terms you get when you have to leave easy because you can take no more grief.....
As for lots of people joining easy from "decent" airlines? Not that many WWW I suggest. Many look, but most stay where they are, because the grass is not always greener.............
Quick upgrades are not everything WWW remember. And eJ are now offering Direct Entry Commands to SFO rank pilots from elsewhere. Probably because they can't get enough quality candidates by fair means...........
My dear Tailscrape, bless your little ways, you do make me smile. Its just you mentioned Thomas Cook and Monarch and I've just this week been chatting to two emigrees from there. I'm the first to point out the failings of Orange culture my friend. No orange underpants in my house I can assure you.
Anyway. I don't want to get into a piddling competiton about whose got the bestest employer - that would be childish.
Flypuppy, I think I meant that the investment was the type rating. After all one has to have the CPL IR frzn ATPL MCC just to get a chance to play. For those that did take the gamble then the return is indeed handsome if measured over say a five year period and compared to whatever else you might have done.
And just to be clear. At every turn I have lamented the rise of self sponsored jet type ratings. At every turn I have forecast their demise as things pick up. At every turn I have said they are only contemplatable for the affluent few.
I certainly could not have afforded £85,000 for training, thats for sure.
WWW
Anyway. I don't want to get into a piddling competiton about whose got the bestest employer - that would be childish.
Flypuppy, I think I meant that the investment was the type rating. After all one has to have the CPL IR frzn ATPL MCC just to get a chance to play. For those that did take the gamble then the return is indeed handsome if measured over say a five year period and compared to whatever else you might have done.
And just to be clear. At every turn I have lamented the rise of self sponsored jet type ratings. At every turn I have forecast their demise as things pick up. At every turn I have said they are only contemplatable for the affluent few.
I certainly could not have afforded £85,000 for training, thats for sure.
WWW