Astraeus
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Penarth South Wales
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Ok then, for the record....
Since inception, Astraeus has recruited and type rated 12 first officers and 3 Captains. Of the First Officers, 4 came through the PPRuNe Cadet Scheme, and , technically paid for their type ratings by operating on a much reduced salary for 6 months.
We have 9 first officers who came to us through paying for their own type rating and are on temporary contracts until the end of the summer season.
We have two first officers under training now who we are paying to type rate. One has worked for us in operations for 15 months, the other comes as a Qualified CRM Examiner. Both have demonstrated the level of talent for which we feel the investment of a type rating is justified. Both will pay back their type rating over a peroid of time by flying on a reduced salary.
Along the way we have also trained pilots for Eurocypria and Channel Express
Bond aviation is offering a service. Versions of the service are available from GECAT, Alteon (formerly FSB) and CTC.
Take it or leave it.
The rights and wrongs of paying for a type rating will be debated forever, and will be dictated by the level of supply and demand in the marketplace.
Since inception, Astraeus has recruited and type rated 12 first officers and 3 Captains. Of the First Officers, 4 came through the PPRuNe Cadet Scheme, and , technically paid for their type ratings by operating on a much reduced salary for 6 months.
We have 9 first officers who came to us through paying for their own type rating and are on temporary contracts until the end of the summer season.
We have two first officers under training now who we are paying to type rate. One has worked for us in operations for 15 months, the other comes as a Qualified CRM Examiner. Both have demonstrated the level of talent for which we feel the investment of a type rating is justified. Both will pay back their type rating over a peroid of time by flying on a reduced salary.
Along the way we have also trained pilots for Eurocypria and Channel Express
Bond aviation is offering a service. Versions of the service are available from GECAT, Alteon (formerly FSB) and CTC.
Take it or leave it.
The rights and wrongs of paying for a type rating will be debated forever, and will be dictated by the level of supply and demand in the marketplace.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: EU
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I guess I will have to pay for my type, but which one? A320, B737, Emb 145, Emb175, MD11, 757-767,ATR At least you could make us a decent proposition with a decent contract, you will have certainly more pilots willing to pay for his type.Until now, nobody came to me with a real offer except one. I do not mind to pay for my type, I have the money but I act like a bank director with my own money. No employment contract= no money for you!
take it or leave it!
take it or leave it!
Terrier
Join Date: Dec 1999
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hamrah
Your benevolence knows no bounds. Temporary contracts as well as paying for ratings.
Quality outfit in it's entirety I reckon. Really good feeling I would imagine knowing that your airline has just about the crummiest terms in the UK business, and that you preside over that outfit........
Your benevolence knows no bounds. Temporary contracts as well as paying for ratings.
Quality outfit in it's entirety I reckon. Really good feeling I would imagine knowing that your airline has just about the crummiest terms in the UK business, and that you preside over that outfit........
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: uk
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Out of curiosity, after the inital day's selection, what percentage of people are advised NOT to continue with the type-rating training?
I can't see there being much of an incentive to turn people down.
The thought of having to pay someone around £1000+vat to tell me if I am suitable to pay for my own type-rating just sounds a bit suspicious!
I can't see there being much of an incentive to turn people down.
The thought of having to pay someone around £1000+vat to tell me if I am suitable to pay for my own type-rating just sounds a bit suspicious!
Join Date: Aug 2003
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It sounds like asstrous is desperated to find new guys to fill the box (the sim).
I think time of easy money is over.
I have just received a contract today by fax. airplane: EMB145, 2 years bonding .I do not have to pay anything. All is paid even the hotel for the 5 weeks training.
I just have to pass a basic interview
So, do not pay for your type.
I think time of easy money is over.
I have just received a contract today by fax. airplane: EMB145, 2 years bonding .I do not have to pay anything. All is paid even the hotel for the 5 weeks training.
I just have to pass a basic interview
So, do not pay for your type.
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Sounds like a disgraceful variant of others tactics to get pilots on the cheap to me. It's a shame that market conditions will no doubt ensure that it works and that they get the necessary numbers they need.
100 hours is no experience at all and to pay £25k for the privilege is insulting if there is no job guarantee at the end of it. It's a shame that Astreus do not have enough faith in their own selection process that they feel they have to pin all the risk on those applying.
Just another erosion in terms and conditions for pilots but hey we've been going down that river for years already.
Those who do pay and get a "full time job" as a result, best of luck to you but you will at some time regret it - I promise you that.
100 hours is no experience at all and to pay £25k for the privilege is insulting if there is no job guarantee at the end of it. It's a shame that Astreus do not have enough faith in their own selection process that they feel they have to pin all the risk on those applying.
Just another erosion in terms and conditions for pilots but hey we've been going down that river for years already.
Those who do pay and get a "full time job" as a result, best of luck to you but you will at some time regret it - I promise you that.
Join Date: Nov 2002
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WWW's advice
I know it was ‘tongue in cheek’ but why don’t we actually do what WWW suggested and NOT pay for type ratings (even if we have the funds) and actively discourage others form doing so.
People have argued on this thread that you are at an advantage if you have 100 hours in a 737 compared with a pilot with 100 hours in a light twin.
All other things being equal I agree. However, speaking to people involved in airline recruitment they are equally concerned in your leadership, your potential to be a future Captain and whether they can sit next to you for 3 hours at a time without wanting to hit you. Paying for a 737 Type Rating does not indicate this.
People will argue that there will always be those that have the funds to pay for ratings and it is impossible to discourage them. I disagree, if Wannabe’s don’t pay for Type Ratings the supply of Type Rated pilots will dry up more quickly, it is up to us as a ‘Wannabe’s community’ to make sure that this doesn’t become the norm. The majority of future pilots read this thread, what educated people post on here will make a difference.
I have access to the capital. However my Grandfather would be turning in his grave if he knew I was having to use it to pay for a Type Rating. He would have wanted me to get a job through my ability and hard work and not through having a financial advantage over others.
Things are improving in the airlines I have contacts in and when they start recruiting they will NOT be looking for a 737 Type Rating and 100 hours on Type but the other factors that I have highlighted above.
DO NOT PAY FOR A TYPE RATING.
People have argued on this thread that you are at an advantage if you have 100 hours in a 737 compared with a pilot with 100 hours in a light twin.
All other things being equal I agree. However, speaking to people involved in airline recruitment they are equally concerned in your leadership, your potential to be a future Captain and whether they can sit next to you for 3 hours at a time without wanting to hit you. Paying for a 737 Type Rating does not indicate this.
People will argue that there will always be those that have the funds to pay for ratings and it is impossible to discourage them. I disagree, if Wannabe’s don’t pay for Type Ratings the supply of Type Rated pilots will dry up more quickly, it is up to us as a ‘Wannabe’s community’ to make sure that this doesn’t become the norm. The majority of future pilots read this thread, what educated people post on here will make a difference.
I have access to the capital. However my Grandfather would be turning in his grave if he knew I was having to use it to pay for a Type Rating. He would have wanted me to get a job through my ability and hard work and not through having a financial advantage over others.
Things are improving in the airlines I have contacts in and when they start recruiting they will NOT be looking for a 737 Type Rating and 100 hours on Type but the other factors that I have highlighted above.
DO NOT PAY FOR A TYPE RATING.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
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Oh come on people, we all pay for a type rating in some way or other. 
Providing you have a job at the end of it, what's the difference between taking out a £25000 loan and paying it off at £500 per month, and taking a reduction in your take home salary of £500 per month in a bond??
The key issue is having the job at the end, as far as I know no-one offering a type-rating course, independent of airlines, guarantees a job.
We all know that and we should make our personal decisions accordingly. If you can afford to go down to the local casino and gamble £23000 and not worry, then buy a 737 type-rating, it'll probably be more fun.
IMHO, airlines are courting work force instability by employing pilots that can up-sticks whenever they want. When there's a bond (like the fact or not) there's a modicum of stability in the pilot work force, but then again I don't run an airline so what would I know.
Providing you have a job at the end of it, what's the difference between taking out a £25000 loan and paying it off at £500 per month, and taking a reduction in your take home salary of £500 per month in a bond??
The key issue is having the job at the end, as far as I know no-one offering a type-rating course, independent of airlines, guarantees a job.
We all know that and we should make our personal decisions accordingly. If you can afford to go down to the local casino and gamble £23000 and not worry, then buy a 737 type-rating, it'll probably be more fun.
IMHO, airlines are courting work force instability by employing pilots that can up-sticks whenever they want. When there's a bond (like the fact or not) there's a modicum of stability in the pilot work force, but then again I don't run an airline so what would I know.
Snigs - quite correct. The rise of the employment model that has no seniority list, no incremental pay scales and no final salary pension scheme means that when the good times come around again the pilot workforce will be freerer to move employer than at any time before.
Similarly the universality of type ratings will exacerbate the issue. If you have 737 & A320 ratings then you can notionally work for about 70% of all european airlines WITHOUT having to re-bond for type rating.
Throw in the imminent (FRA are already there) new development of pan European airlines offering basin opportunities in attractive foreign climes and I think we are definitely entering a new chapter of European pilot employment.
Hopefully a chapter that does not feature self funded commercial type ratings
Cheers
WWW
ps Tailscrape - I believe a JAA Final Line Checked B737 pilot WILL have a great employment advantage. In the end 100hrs, 250hrs or 500hrs is all the same - low time on type. The hurdle is the final line check and the scheme in question crosses that one.
Similarly the universality of type ratings will exacerbate the issue. If you have 737 & A320 ratings then you can notionally work for about 70% of all european airlines WITHOUT having to re-bond for type rating.
Throw in the imminent (FRA are already there) new development of pan European airlines offering basin opportunities in attractive foreign climes and I think we are definitely entering a new chapter of European pilot employment.
Hopefully a chapter that does not feature self funded commercial type ratings
Cheers
WWW
ps Tailscrape - I believe a JAA Final Line Checked B737 pilot WILL have a great employment advantage. In the end 100hrs, 250hrs or 500hrs is all the same - low time on type. The hurdle is the final line check and the scheme in question crosses that one.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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"Throw in the imminent (FRA are already there) new development of pan European airlines offering basin opportunities in attractive foreign climes and I think we are definitely entering a new chapter of European pilot employment."
Sorrry to be ignorant, WWW- could you enlarge a bit on what these developments are about?
Thanks.
On another line, are we saying that turbo prop pilots with lots of experience are just as doomed as the rookies, to pay for jet TR? The likes of shed drivers have built up their hours on instruments, flying by the seat of their pants at night, which I personally feel, gives them a great deal more experience and flying skills, than those who go straight onto automated jets, via a paid TR.
In an emegency, I think I know who I would rather be flying with!
Sorrry to be ignorant, WWW- could you enlarge a bit on what these developments are about?
Thanks.
On another line, are we saying that turbo prop pilots with lots of experience are just as doomed as the rookies, to pay for jet TR? The likes of shed drivers have built up their hours on instruments, flying by the seat of their pants at night, which I personally feel, gives them a great deal more experience and flying skills, than those who go straight onto automated jets, via a paid TR.
In an emegency, I think I know who I would rather be flying with!
Flyergirl10 - I mean that for the first time a UK or Irish airline will open bases on the continent. This was not possible prior to JAA.
easyJet have ordered 120 airbus and they ain't going to be parked in the UK every night. Bases must be opened on the continent as Ryanair have already done in Brussels, Bergamo, Hahn and Scandanavia.
This is unprecedented as aviation used to be a tightly regulated national industry.
If someone like Ryanair or easyJet place ads for pilots to be based in Nice, Barcelona, Venice then that might in itself stimulate interest regardless of pay, conditons and terms.
I am sure night freight hand flying experience in over loaded turbo props is valuable. But. Any experience is valuable from whatever source. Indeed even the awareness that you have no experience and thus must strive to prove yourself is valuable.
Cheers
WWW
easyJet have ordered 120 airbus and they ain't going to be parked in the UK every night. Bases must be opened on the continent as Ryanair have already done in Brussels, Bergamo, Hahn and Scandanavia.
This is unprecedented as aviation used to be a tightly regulated national industry.
If someone like Ryanair or easyJet place ads for pilots to be based in Nice, Barcelona, Venice then that might in itself stimulate interest regardless of pay, conditons and terms.
I am sure night freight hand flying experience in over loaded turbo props is valuable. But. Any experience is valuable from whatever source. Indeed even the awareness that you have no experience and thus must strive to prove yourself is valuable.
Cheers
WWW
PPRuNe Handmaiden
www,
Please correct your statement regarding overloaded turboprops. Just because night freighters may pay poorly and have dirty aircraft doesn't mean the pilots aren't professional.
That sort of statement really infuriates me.
Please correct your statement regarding overloaded turboprops. Just because night freighters may pay poorly and have dirty aircraft doesn't mean the pilots aren't professional.
That sort of statement really infuriates me.
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Hulk
An airline that gives you the contract before the interview ??? That has to be a first. Sign it quick and then you can sue them for breach of contract when you fail it.
Because with your petty and immature attitude (attempts to mispell Astraeus' name differently in each post and personal attacks on individuals and companies for example), then you really deserve to fail. Many other posters who don't agree with the product on offer seem to be able to put their arguments in logical and mature terms.
Many airlines now aim to recruit the all round individual .. someone whom a colleague could spend hours in the same cockpit with. I wouldn't want to spend 3 minutes with you.
Good luck with the new job ... you will need it unless you grow up quickly.
I have just received a contract today by fax ..........I just have to pass a basic interview
Because with your petty and immature attitude (attempts to mispell Astraeus' name differently in each post and personal attacks on individuals and companies for example), then you really deserve to fail. Many other posters who don't agree with the product on offer seem to be able to put their arguments in logical and mature terms.
Many airlines now aim to recruit the all round individual .. someone whom a colleague could spend hours in the same cockpit with. I wouldn't want to spend 3 minutes with you.
Good luck with the new job ... you will need it unless you grow up quickly.
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www - Easyjet & ryanair opening bases abroad will mean that any JAA licence holder could fly for them. Oh that's right they do already. Let's give every bloody European a chance to fly in the UK because we can always go and have their old job somewhere in Europe.
As you have pointed out, the market in pilot recruitment is changing and the airlines have only themselves to blame. If you pay for a type rating you CAN move, and let's face it you would move to a 'better' employer. It's the old argument about respect - it has to be earned - if there is no loyalty from an employer then there will be none from the employee.
As you have pointed out, the market in pilot recruitment is changing and the airlines have only themselves to blame. If you pay for a type rating you CAN move, and let's face it you would move to a 'better' employer. It's the old argument about respect - it has to be earned - if there is no loyalty from an employer then there will be none from the employee.
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ITSUX,
Let's not degenerate this debate into the usual juvenile slanging match.
WWW, I couldn’t agree more with Redsnail's comments. Come on- someone straight out of training, with no experience, is as valuable to a potential airline as, say, a freighter pilot with hundreds or even thousands of hours??
Who would you, WWW, rather have sitting beside you in the cockpit on a regular basis, if you reached the rank of Captain? As I have said, it is bad enough for some airlines to charge low- houred candidates for TR, but my question was, just how experienced do you have to be to escape this regime, or will it apply to just everybody who applies to fly a different type to the one they are presently rated on.
The reason behind my question is- it could cost a hell of a lot of money just to change jobs in future. Goodness me, I wonder how much it might cost to move up to a 747 from your 737??
Let's not degenerate this debate into the usual juvenile slanging match.
WWW, I couldn’t agree more with Redsnail's comments. Come on- someone straight out of training, with no experience, is as valuable to a potential airline as, say, a freighter pilot with hundreds or even thousands of hours??
Who would you, WWW, rather have sitting beside you in the cockpit on a regular basis, if you reached the rank of Captain? As I have said, it is bad enough for some airlines to charge low- houred candidates for TR, but my question was, just how experienced do you have to be to escape this regime, or will it apply to just everybody who applies to fly a different type to the one they are presently rated on.
The reason behind my question is- it could cost a hell of a lot of money just to change jobs in future. Goodness me, I wonder how much it might cost to move up to a 747 from your 737??
Lets not get precious about a throwaway comment that was intended as a compliment. I am sure all freight turboprop pilots are extremely professional aviators who could doubltess wipe the floor with my limited loadsheet ability.
That said I have heard a lot of bar room stories from former freightdogs to be completely naive about some of the practices that exist in their specialist world. Big respect to them - knackered old aircraft with minimal instrumentation, little spare performance and flying into challenging airfields.
Flyergirl10 - you seem to be implying that 'the best' pilots will be the ones with the most experience. This is a facile line of debate thats been done to death here. The ace of the base can come from any background on any particular day. Including your 200hr boy wonder.
Cheers,
WWW
That said I have heard a lot of bar room stories from former freightdogs to be completely naive about some of the practices that exist in their specialist world. Big respect to them - knackered old aircraft with minimal instrumentation, little spare performance and flying into challenging airfields.
Flyergirl10 - you seem to be implying that 'the best' pilots will be the ones with the most experience. This is a facile line of debate thats been done to death here. The ace of the base can come from any background on any particular day. Including your 200hr boy wonder.
Cheers,
WWW
PPRuNe Co-Pilot
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Hmmmmmmmmm The incredible Hulk, i fail to understand this Thread from you...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=100534
... And them you state that you got faxed a contract to fly Emb145, i wonder if you are really a pilot!!!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=100534
... And them you state that you got faxed a contract to fly Emb145, i wonder if you are really a pilot!!!
WWW The Fr8tDawgs you were talkin to musta been jarred up, unless they were struggling with their English
Have never flown an overweight or "knackered" freighter, Cant call M.86 regular cruize knackered!
But that was before the change to a Cat3B Efis freighter that hums along quite happily at FL380/400.
Get more dosh than paxs guys in my current job/ tis longish nights/great fun/great nightstops/great crews.
Business in Europe is growing by 3/4% each year, think its doing better than paxs biz??
The last aircraft I felt uneasy in was a Paxs one!!!
Hope this sorts it.
Sorry for going off Topic on Astraeus but personally in this day and age, its defo a good scheme, when I look around and see the younger people all competing for the few jobs out there. You do need to be prepared and have the upperhand under ure belt with a Type Rating etc. This is 2003 not 1983 when things were bit easier. Its an employers market.
Come freighting!! I was recently talking to a 250hr guy who is so happy at knowing his job is a fair bit more secure than a paxs job.
Best Luck Everyone
Hogg
Have never flown an overweight or "knackered" freighter, Cant call M.86 regular cruize knackered!
But that was before the change to a Cat3B Efis freighter that hums along quite happily at FL380/400.
Get more dosh than paxs guys in my current job/ tis longish nights/great fun/great nightstops/great crews.
Business in Europe is growing by 3/4% each year, think its doing better than paxs biz??
The last aircraft I felt uneasy in was a Paxs one!!!
Hope this sorts it.
Sorry for going off Topic on Astraeus but personally in this day and age, its defo a good scheme, when I look around and see the younger people all competing for the few jobs out there. You do need to be prepared and have the upperhand under ure belt with a Type Rating etc. This is 2003 not 1983 when things were bit easier. Its an employers market.
Come freighting!! I was recently talking to a 250hr guy who is so happy at knowing his job is a fair bit more secure than a paxs job.
Best Luck Everyone
Hogg
