Astraeus
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Might be worth taking a look at the Australian forum and reading some of the threads regarding Virgin Blue who also ask you to pay for the type rating, and also don't pay you through training.
There are pilots in Oz paying for a type rating, doing it off their own backs, some without a job to go to. There are also captains from Virgin Atlantic, Cathay Pacific, Dragonair and so on, also paying for a type rating to get a job with them. These are highly experienced people.
The crunch of what I am saying is that these people are prepared to pay this for the lifestyle they want. I guess these guys could easily get a job with easyjet and not pay for a type rating then maybe 3 years down the track go back home to VB and end up down the bottom of the seniority list on less pay and probably zero chance of a command within the next 10 years.
I also think the idea of paying for a type rating sucks, but sometimes it might be worth looking at the big picture...
Slug your way through the system going from job to job to avoid spending any money, or take a gamble and maybe end up with a higher paid job and quicker time to command.
I guess it's all a gamble.
As for you HULK, I honestly haven't heard so much crap from anybody posting on PPRUNE.... Ever
There are pilots in Oz paying for a type rating, doing it off their own backs, some without a job to go to. There are also captains from Virgin Atlantic, Cathay Pacific, Dragonair and so on, also paying for a type rating to get a job with them. These are highly experienced people.
The crunch of what I am saying is that these people are prepared to pay this for the lifestyle they want. I guess these guys could easily get a job with easyjet and not pay for a type rating then maybe 3 years down the track go back home to VB and end up down the bottom of the seniority list on less pay and probably zero chance of a command within the next 10 years.
I also think the idea of paying for a type rating sucks, but sometimes it might be worth looking at the big picture...
Slug your way through the system going from job to job to avoid spending any money, or take a gamble and maybe end up with a higher paid job and quicker time to command.
I guess it's all a gamble.
As for you HULK, I honestly haven't heard so much crap from anybody posting on PPRUNE.... Ever
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Sooty's post above prompts a point which perhaps not many have considered, or maybe no-one's pointed out before: the 'profession' of commercial pilot has many similarities to that of the self-employed sub-contracting businessman. Qualifications often have to be paid for by the individual and achieved in their own time, unless the requirement for the qualification can be written into a contract, and thus be paid for by the contractor. Contracts are difficult to get hold of, particularly when you are new and have no reputation. Contract moves are speculative and highly risky, but may result in significant improvements in income and lifestyle - and may not! You live on your wits, and the cosy world of the cradle-to-grave employee is probably denied to you (at least in UK!).
This is the world you are entering - or attempting to enter. It has little in common with the spoon-fed existence of the career civil servant, whose life has most of the benefits you are demanding, but little of the excitement you are seeking. It is precarious, unpredictable and potentially soul-destroying, yet for some reason you still want in! As I've said before, and someone quoted me recently, you have to deal with the world as it is, not how you'd like it to be. Commercial realities will not be changed or deflected by your zeal, however righteous.
Scroggs
This is the world you are entering - or attempting to enter. It has little in common with the spoon-fed existence of the career civil servant, whose life has most of the benefits you are demanding, but little of the excitement you are seeking. It is precarious, unpredictable and potentially soul-destroying, yet for some reason you still want in! As I've said before, and someone quoted me recently, you have to deal with the world as it is, not how you'd like it to be. Commercial realities will not be changed or deflected by your zeal, however righteous.
Scroggs
Zeal! 
Make a note of that word Darling - I want to use it more often in conversation. Baar!
WWW
Make a note of that word Darling - I want to use it more often in conversation. Baar!
WWW
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I am sitting here half trashed and I am trying to work out of WWW has made a pass at Scroggs or has admitted his sheep fetish?
Puzzled.
Puzzled.
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Crashdive,
I, like you paid over £50,000 to achieve my frozen ATPL asides loss of earnings for the 13 months I spent at Cranfield. I am still paying it back 6 years later and will be for another 6 years.
If the airline I work for was to go bust and the only way to get another job was to pay £30k for another type-rating I would call it a day and leave the industry.
Your sarcastic digs at my comments about airlines paying for ATPL training as well are not helping anyone here. I, like you decided to pay for my initial training - I have no dispute with that and it was my choice. However, specialised training (type-ratings) costs should be borne by the employer. I can't think of another industry where you have an interview, get the job and then the on-the-job training requires you to dip your hands in your pockets and come up with a further £30k can you ?
The Astraeus scheme is indefensible, opportunistic and a further degradation of our future standards of living. I hope your airline never folds and you are suddenly asked to come up with £30k to get another job because I would imagine you won't like it.
I, like you paid over £50,000 to achieve my frozen ATPL asides loss of earnings for the 13 months I spent at Cranfield. I am still paying it back 6 years later and will be for another 6 years.
If the airline I work for was to go bust and the only way to get another job was to pay £30k for another type-rating I would call it a day and leave the industry.
Your sarcastic digs at my comments about airlines paying for ATPL training as well are not helping anyone here. I, like you decided to pay for my initial training - I have no dispute with that and it was my choice. However, specialised training (type-ratings) costs should be borne by the employer. I can't think of another industry where you have an interview, get the job and then the on-the-job training requires you to dip your hands in your pockets and come up with a further £30k can you ?
The Astraeus scheme is indefensible, opportunistic and a further degradation of our future standards of living. I hope your airline never folds and you are suddenly asked to come up with £30k to get another job because I would imagine you won't like it.
Reddo - you need to watch more Blackadder. Specifically General Melchet in Blackadder goes Forth.
Now; fetch me a potty, a cocker spaniel and two flowery baps!
Cheers
WWW
Now; fetch me a potty, a cocker spaniel and two flowery baps!
Cheers
WWW
PPRuNe Handmaiden
WWW,
Now I am sitting here very sober and I am very worried about your err interests. I reckon you'd better flick your eyes over your old psych notes.
Anally retentive, beastiality and bread fetishist Is that what flying a 737 does to you?
Blackadder? Nah, I was down the pub when that was on.
Now I am sitting here very sober and I am very worried about your err interests. I reckon you'd better flick your eyes over your old psych notes.
Anally retentive, beastiality and bread fetishist Is that what flying a 737 does to you?
Blackadder? Nah, I was down the pub when that was on.
Well when I was in the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps they put me on a course of leeches and said I was as sane as a man standing on a trench ladder in the middle of no-mans land smoking endless cigarettes in a luminous balaclava.
I don't have any Psychology notes as I spent the entire three years watching an unending cycle of Blackadder videos. Ahh, a University education, you can't beat it!
Cheers
WWW
Ps Note To Self - stop thread wandering or you'll have to ban yourself.
I don't have any Psychology notes as I spent the entire three years watching an unending cycle of Blackadder videos. Ahh, a University education, you can't beat it!
Cheers
WWW
Ps Note To Self - stop thread wandering or you'll have to ban yourself.
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the 'profession' of commercial pilot has many similarities to that of the self-employed sub-contracting businessman.
I cannot think of any small sub-contracting businessmen that are asked to:
- take responsibility for company assets worth >$35,000,000.
- take responsibility for >100 lives in an environment that evolution says we shouldn't be in.
- Make strategic decisions with company property that could cost the company thousands of dollars/pounds/euros.
- constantly be required to exhibit their fitness and ability to work.
- make sure they don't have a small incident at work that could fracture the confidence of the company's customers and/or investors.
If a plumber cocks up, your carpet gets wet. If a pilot cocks up people die. Pilots are safety critical employees. If a doctor cocks up they only kill one person at a time and they are unlikely to be lying on the slab in the morgue next to their patient.
Despite all the soul searching and valid points generated by this and other threads about the rights and wrongs about buying type ratings, its not going to change anything. People have a passion for flying, at least I know I do. Airlines know this and are willing to make (ab)use of this fact. They know there are people like me out there who would sell their granny to fly. What they don't reckon on is people like my wife who keep reminding me of the realities of being able to pay the mortgage and feed the kids.
The financial equation of becoming a self sponsored airline pilot do not make sense, even without paying for a type rating. There is no handsome return on investment - in a business sense - for the financial input. If you want that, put the money into a building society account or get a good investment agent and you will safely return 7-10% per annum and you still have your investment capital. That makes financial sense.
Without type rated pilots airlines would own some very expensive kerosine burning garden sheds. As I have said before, self sponsored pilots have taken the initiative and risk on initial training. We have taken the burden of the first phase. That burden is a large one. Noone forced me to do it, but I took the risk and half way through the game the rules changed.
If airlines feel that the employees should also shoulder the burden of the type specific training then apply that rule to all departments in the airline. I think you would find many people leaving the IT department/accounting/HR/middle management if they were asked to pay for the training costs of their specialist knowledge.
Aviation is a weird and wacky world full of weird and wacky people, there are too many intangables in this business, flying on silvery wings and touching the face of God, that make it worth the heartache and misery of getting "over the wall". It just seems that the wall gets a wee bit higher everytime the industry hits rough spell.
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how much does it cost for a pipi with astreus?
So captains are paying too? when do you make money in this business?, ho yes!, I know now, you ask for money.
Well guys, I have some jobs for you, please send me a MP and tell how much you are ready to pay.
seriously:this topic is just crap(10 pages of crap) and people paying airlines have no respect for themselves.it is decadent and I wish you all the best when your airline will kick you out, and you will not have anyplace to go unless you pay again, and again...
and at the end it is again the tax payer who is paying unemployment compensations.
so , stop to pay these airlines.you will help yourself and everybody who is looking for a PAID job.
So captains are paying too? when do you make money in this business?, ho yes!, I know now, you ask for money.
Well guys, I have some jobs for you, please send me a MP and tell how much you are ready to pay.
seriously:this topic is just crap(10 pages of crap) and people paying airlines have no respect for themselves.it is decadent and I wish you all the best when your airline will kick you out, and you will not have anyplace to go unless you pay again, and again...
and at the end it is again the tax payer who is paying unemployment compensations.
so , stop to pay these airlines.you will help yourself and everybody who is looking for a PAID job.
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Flypuppy’s ( and so some extent LOAJ’s ) post above made me think about an article I once read ( from the Telegraph ) and so I dug it out - just don’t ask why I’ve kept it.
What’s interesting is how the times have changed – albeit that, in some ways they have and in some ways they haven’t.
I’m open to your suggestions as to which year the above was written in ( ostensibly by a Captain on a B767 ) and, perhaps more to the point of this thread, of what’s changed since then ( assuming you can place the date ).
Erata.....
Hulk - a p!ss costs nothing, but a type-rating costs about £20k ( and the line training option, if you want it, is extra ) and also, when I was last 'on the dole', the money I got from HM Government didn't even cover my modest
weekly wine bill - and yet I, as a high-rate tax payer, have regularly / annually payed more in tax than most people earn - so go figure !
LOAJ - I was not being sarcastic, I was just trying to remind one and all of the simple truth that with you, me, all of us, paying to get our feet on the aviation ladder we are, by that very fact that we pay, subsidising the airlines and therein set something of a precedent.
Now as so many here seem keen to point out, w.r.t. how many doctors, lawyers, train-drivers, etc, are required to pay for their training ? Well, in respect of the first two, to be any good you’ve got to be really smart - something which, I’m afraid to say, is hardly the case with being an airline pilot ( rocket science it ain’t ! ) - and in the latter case nobody wants to do it anymore, e,g. the only people you see getting excited at railway stations, and if they’ll excuse me saying this about them, are ‘anoraks’ – whereas at air shows and RAF / airline open days ?
It’s all about supply and demand and, at the moment, the supply outstrips the demand ( and has done for a long time ) and so aspiring airline wannabes have to join a long queue, wherein your place in that queue depends much upon luck ( oh yes, a lot of luck is required ) along with your aeronautical qualifications and experience.
Flypup's - keep climbing the wall old mate, as, believe it or not, some of us are genuinely at the top and trying to help pull you over it.
Ps. The above edited for afterthoughts.
What’s interesting is how the times have changed – albeit that, in some ways they have and in some ways they haven’t.
SIR – Your Air Correspondent’s report ( Aug.3 ) refers to the problems created by a growing pilot shortage for the independent airlines and third level operators.
This pilot shortage will continue for the simple reason the British Airways will absorb virtually all the promising young ( and not so young ) pilot available in the coming few years, since their existing pilot work force is of a comparatively advanced age due to no pilot training or recruitment in recent years. The independent airlines will face a worse shortage since they have not, to a man, invested any money in ab initio pilot training, or even training to upgrade basically qualified pilots, for over twenty years. Now, too late, they seek to reverse this situation by training a small number of pilots for their rapidly depleting ranks. In other walks of life, companies generating the sort of turnover and profits we are talking about would have apprenticeship schemes, university sponsorships and managers devoted to the provision of suitable future employees.
In the case of the independent airlines, in their headlong search for return on capital to the exclusion of everything else, they have relied on young men often of very limited means who have been prepared to beggar themselves in the expensive pursuit of pilots’ licenses so they could fulfil their ambition to fly. Now they accuse these same young men of disloyalty and worse when they leave to join British Airways and other national operators, to the extent that they seek to sue for their minimal costs in aircraft type training ( when compared with the huge costs these young men have incurred so they could qualify ). I am afraid that these independent airlines have brought this shortage on themselves by their short-sighted and parsimonious attitudes and must now stew in their own juice.
This stew will take an interesting form. It will consist of a cessation in the current huge expansion in the inclusive tour trade, an increasing burden on aircraft commanders in the independent sector who will have to put up with semi-trained and inexperienced First Officers ( initial evidence of this is the 20 Eastern European gentlemen who turned up here to fly British passengers out of this country for an independent airline and who were grounded after simulator competence tests ), a consequent and general lowering of standards, an increase in costs and tour prices and, it is to be hoped, a greater exclusivity and return to more pleasurable airport environments.
These airlines claim respectability. Let them show it by investing in the future and their prime human resource, instead of taking all the profit for unbridled expansion.
This pilot shortage will continue for the simple reason the British Airways will absorb virtually all the promising young ( and not so young ) pilot available in the coming few years, since their existing pilot work force is of a comparatively advanced age due to no pilot training or recruitment in recent years. The independent airlines will face a worse shortage since they have not, to a man, invested any money in ab initio pilot training, or even training to upgrade basically qualified pilots, for over twenty years. Now, too late, they seek to reverse this situation by training a small number of pilots for their rapidly depleting ranks. In other walks of life, companies generating the sort of turnover and profits we are talking about would have apprenticeship schemes, university sponsorships and managers devoted to the provision of suitable future employees.
In the case of the independent airlines, in their headlong search for return on capital to the exclusion of everything else, they have relied on young men often of very limited means who have been prepared to beggar themselves in the expensive pursuit of pilots’ licenses so they could fulfil their ambition to fly. Now they accuse these same young men of disloyalty and worse when they leave to join British Airways and other national operators, to the extent that they seek to sue for their minimal costs in aircraft type training ( when compared with the huge costs these young men have incurred so they could qualify ). I am afraid that these independent airlines have brought this shortage on themselves by their short-sighted and parsimonious attitudes and must now stew in their own juice.
This stew will take an interesting form. It will consist of a cessation in the current huge expansion in the inclusive tour trade, an increasing burden on aircraft commanders in the independent sector who will have to put up with semi-trained and inexperienced First Officers ( initial evidence of this is the 20 Eastern European gentlemen who turned up here to fly British passengers out of this country for an independent airline and who were grounded after simulator competence tests ), a consequent and general lowering of standards, an increase in costs and tour prices and, it is to be hoped, a greater exclusivity and return to more pleasurable airport environments.
These airlines claim respectability. Let them show it by investing in the future and their prime human resource, instead of taking all the profit for unbridled expansion.
Erata.....
Hulk - a p!ss costs nothing, but a type-rating costs about £20k ( and the line training option, if you want it, is extra ) and also, when I was last 'on the dole', the money I got from HM Government didn't even cover my modest
weekly wine bill - and yet I, as a high-rate tax payer, have regularly / annually payed more in tax than most people earn - so go figure !LOAJ - I was not being sarcastic, I was just trying to remind one and all of the simple truth that with you, me, all of us, paying to get our feet on the aviation ladder we are, by that very fact that we pay, subsidising the airlines and therein set something of a precedent.
Now as so many here seem keen to point out, w.r.t. how many doctors, lawyers, train-drivers, etc, are required to pay for their training ? Well, in respect of the first two, to be any good you’ve got to be really smart - something which, I’m afraid to say, is hardly the case with being an airline pilot ( rocket science it ain’t ! ) - and in the latter case nobody wants to do it anymore, e,g. the only people you see getting excited at railway stations, and if they’ll excuse me saying this about them, are ‘anoraks’ – whereas at air shows and RAF / airline open days ?
It’s all about supply and demand and, at the moment, the supply outstrips the demand ( and has done for a long time ) and so aspiring airline wannabes have to join a long queue, wherein your place in that queue depends much upon luck ( oh yes, a lot of luck is required ) along with your aeronautical qualifications and experience.
Flypup's - keep climbing the wall old mate, as, believe it or not, some of us are genuinely at the top and trying to help pull you over it.
Ps. The above edited for afterthoughts.
Last edited by CrashDive; 14th Sep 2003 at 07:15.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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Crashy,
Someone on these forums posted a letter to The Times or the Telegraph which was dated from sometime in the 1950's. Some of the names and technology were changed but the message was ostensibly the same.
Little has changed. The airlines have previously relied heavily on military pilots and chumps who will pay for their own training. Sponsored cadets make up a small minority of commercial pilots,in the grand scheme of things.
With the military producing less and less pilots and desprately trying to hold on to those they have, once business returns and starts to expand airlines will have to find pilot bods from somewhere. There are,depending on who you believe, between 700 and 1200 unemployed CPL/ATPL&IR holders with valid Class 1 Medicals who are working in B&Q or growing roses at the moment. I cant remember what the industry standard is for crewing one aeroplane (7 or 10 bods per airframe) but this number only represents the possible increase in UK registered hulls of between 70 and 172. I am sure my basic arithmetic has some huge holes in it but airlines will need to find pilots from somewhere.
Cranfield Oxford and Jerez have shifted their focus from airline cadets to self sponsored people,this surely is a sign of things to come.
BTW, I had a chat with someone who persuaded me that I shouldnt set fire to my CPL. I hope the guys who are trying to help me over the wall are muscular, I am not getting any thinner........
Someone on these forums posted a letter to The Times or the Telegraph which was dated from sometime in the 1950's. Some of the names and technology were changed but the message was ostensibly the same.
Little has changed. The airlines have previously relied heavily on military pilots and chumps who will pay for their own training. Sponsored cadets make up a small minority of commercial pilots,in the grand scheme of things.
With the military producing less and less pilots and desprately trying to hold on to those they have, once business returns and starts to expand airlines will have to find pilot bods from somewhere. There are,depending on who you believe, between 700 and 1200 unemployed CPL/ATPL&IR holders with valid Class 1 Medicals who are working in B&Q or growing roses at the moment. I cant remember what the industry standard is for crewing one aeroplane (7 or 10 bods per airframe) but this number only represents the possible increase in UK registered hulls of between 70 and 172. I am sure my basic arithmetic has some huge holes in it but airlines will need to find pilots from somewhere.
Cranfield Oxford and Jerez have shifted their focus from airline cadets to self sponsored people,this surely is a sign of things to come.
BTW, I had a chat with someone who persuaded me that I shouldnt set fire to my CPL. I hope the guys who are trying to help me over the wall are muscular, I am not getting any thinner........
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I also have an article, copied from 'Flight International', in which it says of UK aviation:
now quite how that fits with a post 911 environment, albeit with low-cost airlines much to the fore, is hard to say.... but the article also went on to say:
The above was written, in 'Flight International', on 15th August 1987 ( yes, 87 )- and so just what's changed since then ?!
Aside - If I find time, I'll repro the whole article ( and a couple of others ), as it makes interesting reading with the historic ( i.e. sixteen years ago ) perspective and pilot numbers - imho.
Q). Does anybody ( other than the Belgrano ) really have the answer as to how many professionally licensed wannabe's there are, i.e. those whom are actively looking for professional pilot employment, as well as how many of the same such people are churned out each year by the 'elementary' pilot training schools ?
Ps. FlyP - rest assured that we're all in training to help fat blokes like you reach the top bricks ( albeit that this is very much the pot calling the kettle black ).
Also, please do not burn your license - but instead rip it up ( like I did mine, in a moment of total dispair ) as that way you can then ( laboriously ) stick the pages back together with cellotape ( I kid you not !
)
....... a stock of 5,000 pilots with 25-year working lives requires 200 new pilots a year to maintain an even flow.
..... the long-term solution has not changed. Air transport is one of the most expensive professions to enter: "There is no university course in the art of flying".
A BA representative said that the UK industry needs a national pilot training college. "But British Airways can look after itself, thank you very much." and the ATOA chief executive emphasises that the industry is not a single unit: "It's British Airways - and the rest."
A BA representative said that the UK industry needs a national pilot training college. "But British Airways can look after itself, thank you very much." and the ATOA chief executive emphasises that the industry is not a single unit: "It's British Airways - and the rest."
Aside - If I find time, I'll repro the whole article ( and a couple of others ), as it makes interesting reading with the historic ( i.e. sixteen years ago ) perspective and pilot numbers - imho.
Q). Does anybody ( other than the Belgrano ) really have the answer as to how many professionally licensed wannabe's there are, i.e. those whom are actively looking for professional pilot employment, as well as how many of the same such people are churned out each year by the 'elementary' pilot training schools ?
Ps. FlyP - rest assured that we're all in training to help fat blokes like you reach the top bricks ( albeit that this is very much the pot calling the kettle black
).Also, please do not burn your license - but instead rip it up ( like I did mine, in a moment of total dispair ) as that way you can then ( laboriously ) stick the pages back together with cellotape ( I kid you not !
)
Last edited by CrashDive; 14th Sep 2003 at 06:36.
Jerez is for sale and rumour is rife that so is Kiddlington. Nobody is making any money in flight training apart from a few smaller FTO's.
The capacity is there for training about 550 commerically rated guys a year.
Trouble is with the long lead and lag times there were too few people a year ago who decided to go for it and I can't say I blame them. In fact I encouraged them not to.
My prediction - barring a major failure - is that two years from now there will be some serious hiring going on again.
Oh, and as for Doctors. A very good friend of mine is at the age of 28 *just* finishing his training in Chester hospital. He will be becoming a GP next year with £22,000 of sheer debt. He will have to take a loan out for about £60,000 to buy into a reasonable practice. He will then earn about £57,000 a year by putting in some pretty long hours. The threat of litigation and assault is huge and the status is not so glamorous.
Frankly I think I'm better off at 37,000ft.
Cheers
WWW
The capacity is there for training about 550 commerically rated guys a year.
Trouble is with the long lead and lag times there were too few people a year ago who decided to go for it and I can't say I blame them. In fact I encouraged them not to.
My prediction - barring a major failure - is that two years from now there will be some serious hiring going on again.
Oh, and as for Doctors. A very good friend of mine is at the age of 28 *just* finishing his training in Chester hospital. He will be becoming a GP next year with £22,000 of sheer debt. He will have to take a loan out for about £60,000 to buy into a reasonable practice. He will then earn about £57,000 a year by putting in some pretty long hours. The threat of litigation and assault is huge and the status is not so glamorous.
Frankly I think I'm better off at 37,000ft.
Cheers
WWW
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Crashy,
Does that mean that Pups is going to have to slip into the black lycra bike shorts like your good self and another well known colourful Astraeus identity have done in the name of err fitness?
Pups, you're nearly there mate, you've done the hard yards and now you just the fun IR to do. You've got the contacts
As in Oz, I dare say about 90% of the folk that start the journey on getting a CPL etc never make it. Success is 90% persistance. 10% luck.
If people chose to do a type rating on spec then it is a gamble. If they have read this thread then at least they should be able to make a reasonably informed decision.
Does that mean that Pups is going to have to slip into the black lycra bike shorts like your good self and another well known colourful Astraeus identity have done in the name of err fitness?
Pups, you're nearly there mate, you've done the hard yards and now you just the fun IR to do. You've got the contacts
As in Oz, I dare say about 90% of the folk that start the journey on getting a CPL etc never make it. Success is 90% persistance. 10% luck.
If people chose to do a type rating on spec then it is a gamble. If they have read this thread then at least they should be able to make a reasonably informed decision.
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WWW- The Doctor is buying into his INVESTMENT in that practice. Who is selling the investment? The senior partners in the practice, of course. They are now reaping the rewards of having been partners before. The Doctor will eventually recoup his money as he retires. Same goes for Accountants, Solicitors, Architects, etc, etc.
A pilot goes into PAID employment, not a partnership agreement. And, to my thinking, £22,000 does not equate with £75-80,000 for pilot debt, after potential additional type Rating and Line Training expenses.
And, after my edit for pause to think further, a pilot goes ito a £20,000/ year job, not commencing at £55,000 like your doctor. (Although, somehow, I doubt that a doctor makes that much at the start of his career.)
A pilot goes into PAID employment, not a partnership agreement. And, to my thinking, £22,000 does not equate with £75-80,000 for pilot debt, after potential additional type Rating and Line Training expenses.
And, after my edit for pause to think further, a pilot goes ito a £20,000/ year job, not commencing at £55,000 like your doctor. (Although, somehow, I doubt that a doctor makes that much at the start of his career.)
Last edited by Tosh McCaber; 15th Sep 2003 at 04:17.
I say there boy
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A newly-hired doctor straight out of med school makes around £23,000 for a 56 hour week but it increases rapidly in the years after that to around the £50,000 pa mark by the time they are 5 years out of Uni.
New GPs do get upwards of £55,000 but it takes ten years to train as a GP: 5 unpaid years in med school (which will more likely than not cost £15,000 in fees from next year, not forgetting the cost of living for 5 years), 3 years in a hospital then minimum 2 years as a trainee GP before you have to buy your way into a practice. Hence why WWW's mate who is just becoming a GP is 28.
Dentists do a lot better than doctors for cash, they're usually earning well over £50k by the time they are 25. Outside the City there are few better jobs for high earning potential at an early age...
New GPs do get upwards of £55,000 but it takes ten years to train as a GP: 5 unpaid years in med school (which will more likely than not cost £15,000 in fees from next year, not forgetting the cost of living for 5 years), 3 years in a hospital then minimum 2 years as a trainee GP before you have to buy your way into a practice. Hence why WWW's mate who is just becoming a GP is 28.
Dentists do a lot better than doctors for cash, they're usually earning well over £50k by the time they are 25. Outside the City there are few better jobs for high earning potential at an early age...
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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I have said before that comparisons with doctors are not particularly valid, but since we seem to be going down this road....
An ex-girlfriend was medical student at Aberdeen Uni, she completed a 6 year degree to specialise in something I cant spell, at that time the only financial input required was beer money. She did her time as a houseman, a year I think, working silly hours with no sleep etc etc, then started in her specialisation.
Within a year of starting that she had a new BMW and was enjoying life to the full. After 2 years of that she was offered a job with one of the big drugs companies as an advisor. The initial package was a 6 figure sum plus car, share options, pension yadda yadda. Last time I spoke to her about a year ago, she was working for the same company for 2 days a week and still on a 6 figure salary. The rest of the time she is working on writing a book and indulging in her love of painting. She is a year younger than me and damn near retired.
Admittedly she has the brain the size of a planet and the very embodiment of 'over-achiever', but I dont think that you will find many pilots who are able to mimic a similar career path.
I think it is time to lay the doctor/pilot comparisons to rest.
An ex-girlfriend was medical student at Aberdeen Uni, she completed a 6 year degree to specialise in something I cant spell, at that time the only financial input required was beer money. She did her time as a houseman, a year I think, working silly hours with no sleep etc etc, then started in her specialisation.
Within a year of starting that she had a new BMW and was enjoying life to the full. After 2 years of that she was offered a job with one of the big drugs companies as an advisor. The initial package was a 6 figure sum plus car, share options, pension yadda yadda. Last time I spoke to her about a year ago, she was working for the same company for 2 days a week and still on a 6 figure salary. The rest of the time she is working on writing a book and indulging in her love of painting. She is a year younger than me and damn near retired.
Admittedly she has the brain the size of a planet and the very embodiment of 'over-achiever', but I dont think that you will find many pilots who are able to mimic a similar career path.
I think it is time to lay the doctor/pilot comparisons to rest.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 15th Sep 2003 at 22:20.
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Back to the original thread. can anyone tell me what sort of form the line training at Bond/Astraeus takes? ie Is it full time/ weekends included/wee small hours? Any info gratefully received.