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Hamrah,
Put it any way you like- it is still completely unethical, and only to expand the People at the Top's profits further, at the expense of those at the bottom, that these schemes have proliferated.
Sir Donald- take me- I'm yours! And I agree with all of your sentiments, although I doubt if they will make the slightest bit of difference to the bean counter- lead outfits.
And Scoggs, get real. You analagy between buying a computer, and trying to find an airline job just doesn't stand up.
Put it any way you like- it is still completely unethical, and only to expand the People at the Top's profits further, at the expense of those at the bottom, that these schemes have proliferated.
Sir Donald- take me- I'm yours! And I agree with all of your sentiments, although I doubt if they will make the slightest bit of difference to the bean counter- lead outfits.
And Scoggs, get real. You analagy between buying a computer, and trying to find an airline job just doesn't stand up.
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SirD, if I might be so bold, you ( and some others ) seem to be very confused about how this ‘self sponsored’ type rating thing works.
Nobody is forcing anybody to pay for their own type rating, it’s just an option which is available - and one which has seemingly proliferated due to the demand for it.
Ultimately, cost / money aside, it is entirely down to the individuals own choice as to whether they pursue this route or not – and there are risks with doing it, just as there are risks with not doing it.
SirD, looking through your previous posts it would seem that you have a huge chip on your shoulder about how BA have treated you, along with another chip on your (other) shoulder about people who do self-sponsored type ratings and then go on to get an airline job ( which no doubt you seem to think is 'owed' to you ).
Given that nobody owes anybody a living, i.e. just because you’ve spent a small fortune on getting a shiny new (f)ATPL and / or type-rating, nobody ( repeat, nobody ) is beholden to give you a job, and many people, maybe you too, might be one of the hundreds that never make it to the pilot seats of a jet airliner – but them’s the breaks.
However, for those that do decide that paying for their own type rating is for them, then, whether you like it or not, if they are properly trained by a TRTO, they ( in the current airline pilot employment market ) stand a significantly improved chance of landing that much coveted airline pilots job.
Somewhat as an aside, here’s a question for you…..What do EasyJet, RyanAir, Monarch, GB, CTC, Bond Aviation, BA, Emirates, Cathay, etc, all have in common ?
Answer: They are all commercial companies intent on making a profit for their owners – it is their sole reason for being.
However, costs are high, yields are low, profits are low or non-existent, and thus ( safety aside ) any way that an airline ( at least one that wishes to survive in such a market ) can save money, it will – and this includes being quite hard-nosed about reducing it's training costs, especially so when people are seemingly prepared to pay for this themselves – so go figure.
Aviation utopia it ain’t.
Incidentally, contrary to what you might think, much of Bond Aviations business actually comes from airlines ( emphasis on the plural ) which are putting their own pilots through type ratings ( and in some instances it has been these pilots very first jet type rating ), i.e. it is the airline who are paying for it - not the individual ( albeit, no doubt, under a standard '3 year / sliding scale' bond ).
Now w.r.t. why BWA folded ( and your purile gybe at John )
Imho, the reason is that when the ‘new’ management joined in the spring of 2001 to say that we had our work cut out to turn around an airline which was entrenched with out moded practices, to say nothing that it was both physically and mentally removed from the mainstream of aviation, would be to understate it.
Also, I distinctly recall John ( hamrah ) telling me, before I joined it in April’01 ( he’d joined the month before from GoFly ), that BWA was on very rocky ground financially and that I too would be taking a big risk leaving the security of GoFly - i.e. we knew even then that BWA was already in bad financial shape – and we hadn’t even been there !
That said, a few months later - with new management at the helm - things were beginning to look up…….. but then September 11th happened and after that it was very much down hill.
Basically the years of (mis)management that had occurred, prior to the ‘new’ management teams arrival, had placed the company on a precarious financial footing, coupled with a ( post 911 ) total loss of cash flow which was servicing the interest on the substantial overdraft, along with liens being placed on the aircraft, etc – it was just not possible to redeem the situation, i.e. it had a longstanding pre-existing financial millstone around its corporate neck, and 911 just did for it.
Incidentally, one of the nails in the coffin was somewhat caused by an Australian chap ( one Warren Seymore, if I recall ) who’d started an airline in Italy called NJI – using aircraft leased from BWA and running under BWA’s AOC.
Somehow or other they ( NJI ) had very kindly forgotten to pay the substantial EuroControl bills for the flights which BWA’s aircraft had operated whilst leased to NJI – as such BWA became liable for these bills ( about £1m ) and, well, the rest is history.
So, SirD, these are the facts – and I should know, as I was there, I lived it, and I was forced on to the dole because of it.
That said, I’ve been employed by Astraeus since its inception, and it is a company that seems to be going from strength to strength, on a sound financial footing ( something to do with a very astute management team maybe ? ), with total support from it’s Venture Capital company and many within the travel industry ( something which was noticeably absent during BWA’s closing days ! )
In closure, and as JM said above, please get you facts straight before mouthing off about things of which you have little or no knowledge.
Ps. ( Hence the edit ) for the sake of repeating myself:
Astraeus = an airline
Bond Aviation = a TRTO
There is NO SUCH THING as an Astraeus type-rating.
Astraeus and Bond Aviation are two separate companies and people who do the type rating are doing it with Bond Aviation - where the latter might indeed use resources from Astraeus, just as it regularly uses resources from BA, Lufthansa, Aer Lingus, Gecat, BritMidland, and others.....
Nobody is forcing anybody to pay for their own type rating, it’s just an option which is available - and one which has seemingly proliferated due to the demand for it.
Ultimately, cost / money aside, it is entirely down to the individuals own choice as to whether they pursue this route or not – and there are risks with doing it, just as there are risks with not doing it.
SirD, looking through your previous posts it would seem that you have a huge chip on your shoulder about how BA have treated you, along with another chip on your (other) shoulder about people who do self-sponsored type ratings and then go on to get an airline job ( which no doubt you seem to think is 'owed' to you ).
Given that nobody owes anybody a living, i.e. just because you’ve spent a small fortune on getting a shiny new (f)ATPL and / or type-rating, nobody ( repeat, nobody ) is beholden to give you a job, and many people, maybe you too, might be one of the hundreds that never make it to the pilot seats of a jet airliner – but them’s the breaks.
However, for those that do decide that paying for their own type rating is for them, then, whether you like it or not, if they are properly trained by a TRTO, they ( in the current airline pilot employment market ) stand a significantly improved chance of landing that much coveted airline pilots job.
Somewhat as an aside, here’s a question for you…..What do EasyJet, RyanAir, Monarch, GB, CTC, Bond Aviation, BA, Emirates, Cathay, etc, all have in common ?
Answer: They are all commercial companies intent on making a profit for their owners – it is their sole reason for being.
However, costs are high, yields are low, profits are low or non-existent, and thus ( safety aside ) any way that an airline ( at least one that wishes to survive in such a market ) can save money, it will – and this includes being quite hard-nosed about reducing it's training costs, especially so when people are seemingly prepared to pay for this themselves – so go figure.
Aviation utopia it ain’t.
Incidentally, contrary to what you might think, much of Bond Aviations business actually comes from airlines ( emphasis on the plural ) which are putting their own pilots through type ratings ( and in some instances it has been these pilots very first jet type rating ), i.e. it is the airline who are paying for it - not the individual ( albeit, no doubt, under a standard '3 year / sliding scale' bond ).
Now w.r.t. why BWA folded ( and your purile gybe at John )
Imho, the reason is that when the ‘new’ management joined in the spring of 2001 to say that we had our work cut out to turn around an airline which was entrenched with out moded practices, to say nothing that it was both physically and mentally removed from the mainstream of aviation, would be to understate it.
Also, I distinctly recall John ( hamrah ) telling me, before I joined it in April’01 ( he’d joined the month before from GoFly ), that BWA was on very rocky ground financially and that I too would be taking a big risk leaving the security of GoFly - i.e. we knew even then that BWA was already in bad financial shape – and we hadn’t even been there !
That said, a few months later - with new management at the helm - things were beginning to look up…….. but then September 11th happened and after that it was very much down hill.
Basically the years of (mis)management that had occurred, prior to the ‘new’ management teams arrival, had placed the company on a precarious financial footing, coupled with a ( post 911 ) total loss of cash flow which was servicing the interest on the substantial overdraft, along with liens being placed on the aircraft, etc – it was just not possible to redeem the situation, i.e. it had a longstanding pre-existing financial millstone around its corporate neck, and 911 just did for it.
Incidentally, one of the nails in the coffin was somewhat caused by an Australian chap ( one Warren Seymore, if I recall ) who’d started an airline in Italy called NJI – using aircraft leased from BWA and running under BWA’s AOC.
Somehow or other they ( NJI ) had very kindly forgotten to pay the substantial EuroControl bills for the flights which BWA’s aircraft had operated whilst leased to NJI – as such BWA became liable for these bills ( about £1m ) and, well, the rest is history.
So, SirD, these are the facts – and I should know, as I was there, I lived it, and I was forced on to the dole because of it.
That said, I’ve been employed by Astraeus since its inception, and it is a company that seems to be going from strength to strength, on a sound financial footing ( something to do with a very astute management team maybe ? ), with total support from it’s Venture Capital company and many within the travel industry ( something which was noticeably absent during BWA’s closing days ! )
In closure, and as JM said above, please get you facts straight before mouthing off about things of which you have little or no knowledge.
Ps. ( Hence the edit ) for the sake of repeating myself:
Astraeus = an airline
Bond Aviation = a TRTO
There is NO SUCH THING as an Astraeus type-rating.
Astraeus and Bond Aviation are two separate companies and people who do the type rating are doing it with Bond Aviation - where the latter might indeed use resources from Astraeus, just as it regularly uses resources from BA, Lufthansa, Aer Lingus, Gecat, BritMidland, and others.....
Last edited by CrashDive; 24th Aug 2003 at 02:30.
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Sir D,
W.r.t. ‘I travelled the world, completed 2 licences all out of my own sweat, in the quest for success’
Funny that, me too, wherein I have FAA & CAA & JAA professional licenses ( as well as lots of time on a B737 ).
W.r.t. ’Do not compare BA, Emirates, Cathay Pacific and the rest of the successful conglomerates to the likes of Astraeus and Bond Aviation and all the rest of the wannabe airlines’
The successful conglomerates, really ?!
Well, despite what you might think, and small as we might be, here at Astraeus we certainly don’t sh!t on our staff like BA did on you; indeed, as an example, Astraeus are presently putting a young lady ( who used to work in our Operations Department as an ops supervisor ) through a B737 type rating course – wherein she already has a (f)ATPL and has been with the company for about 15 months.
W.r.t. ’They do not offer schemes like that, no money involved upfront for no prospect of a job.’
See answer above – the B737 type rating is costing her nothing.
W.r.t. ’All I am saying is that a proper outfit does not come up with such bull and please do not try to compare your selves to them’
Given all the above, and that the PPRuNe 'Cadets' now each have several hundred hours of quality Astraeus B737 time under their belts, and that we're obviously quite prepared to promote from within ( all with little or no length of service or age restrictions ) perhaps all I can say is, QED ?!
W.r.t. ’do not talk about low yield; if you have any idea about accountancy you should understand how a balance sheet operates’
Actually, I do understand how a balance sheet works - and, unfortunately, only rather too well ( do you know that I used to run my own business ? ) - as I've spent years working under the cosh of just such a fiscal item.
W.r.t. ’Type charging is additional cash flow to the company, not an expense.’
That is somewhat of a red herring from you, remembering that Astraeus don’t actually charge for type-ratings ( e.g. see above ) and all training ( once you are employed by an airline ) is subsequently paid for by that airline.
That said, Bond Aviation, as a TRTO, will indeed charge for a type rating because that’s the business that they ( Bond Aviation ) are in, i.e. ‘selling’ type ratings to those people, and airlines, that want them – and, let’s say it once again, nobody is forcing anybody into doing a type rating, IT’S THEIR CHOICE to do it !
W.r.t. ’Through a bond the successful applicant will pay their dues.’
Indeed, but those already type-rated (e.g. maybe the likes of me, along with those people who’ve decided to pay for their own type-rating ) will not be bonded and would therefore be free to leave the employment of an airline without fear of penalty if either it, or their circumstances, choose to not be to their best interests ( subject, of course, to the normal contractural T&C’s ).
W.r.t. ’People want jobs so let’s charge them for it because we are not doing well or we are still using 09/11 as an excuse to publish low yields.’
But we’ve not done that. Indeed we started an airline when pretty much all of the rest of the industry ( e.g. the likes of BA, Emirates, Cathay Pacific and the rest of the so called – according to you - successful conglomerates ) were screaming doom and gloom and laying off staff by the hundreds and thousands – wherein our subsequent success speaks for itself, and this might be an apt time to remind you of some of it:
- Astraeus were the fastest airline start-up in the history of UK aviation ( and this might even include a broader spectrum than just the UK ) – having gone from a blank sheet of paper to two B737-300’s in 3 months, with an additional two B737-700’s joining the fleet less than four weeks after, and a further two B737-300’s ( bringing the fleet up to six aircraft ) within one year of the very first flight.
- We went from an initial start-up team of a half-dozen people, to eighteen months later employing 240 staff ( more than 70 of which are pilots – many of them ex BWA - some of whom required a B737 type rating, and which Astraeus paid for ).
- In August last year ( i.e. only 5 months after the first flight took place ) Astraeus were the world leader in utilisation of the B737 – we even beat EasyJet - which, for a charter operator, is truly astounding.
- In the year to end of March'03 we operated in to & out of 133 different airports throughout Europe, Africa, CIS, Middle East, etc.
- Astraeus presently operate the longest B737 scheduled service in the world, i.e. LGW to Malabo in Equatorial Guinea.
And I could go on but it’ll probably be lost on you…..
Basically SirD, you’re in a p!ss!ng contest which you can’t win ( certainly not against me ) – coz I’ve got all the facts, whereas all you’ve got is insinuation, hearsay, puerile comments, and not much else by way of substance or real experience of life in an airline at the cutting edge and / or senior management level.
Eagerly awaiting your next load of verbiage – so that I can shoot it down for the BS that it actually is.
Yours,
CD.
W.r.t. ‘I travelled the world, completed 2 licences all out of my own sweat, in the quest for success’
Funny that, me too, wherein I have FAA & CAA & JAA professional licenses ( as well as lots of time on a B737 ).
W.r.t. ’Do not compare BA, Emirates, Cathay Pacific and the rest of the successful conglomerates to the likes of Astraeus and Bond Aviation and all the rest of the wannabe airlines’
The successful conglomerates, really ?!
Well, despite what you might think, and small as we might be, here at Astraeus we certainly don’t sh!t on our staff like BA did on you; indeed, as an example, Astraeus are presently putting a young lady ( who used to work in our Operations Department as an ops supervisor ) through a B737 type rating course – wherein she already has a (f)ATPL and has been with the company for about 15 months.
W.r.t. ’They do not offer schemes like that, no money involved upfront for no prospect of a job.’
See answer above – the B737 type rating is costing her nothing.
W.r.t. ’All I am saying is that a proper outfit does not come up with such bull and please do not try to compare your selves to them’
Given all the above, and that the PPRuNe 'Cadets' now each have several hundred hours of quality Astraeus B737 time under their belts, and that we're obviously quite prepared to promote from within ( all with little or no length of service or age restrictions ) perhaps all I can say is, QED ?!
W.r.t. ’do not talk about low yield; if you have any idea about accountancy you should understand how a balance sheet operates’
Actually, I do understand how a balance sheet works - and, unfortunately, only rather too well ( do you know that I used to run my own business ? ) - as I've spent years working under the cosh of just such a fiscal item.
W.r.t. ’Type charging is additional cash flow to the company, not an expense.’
That is somewhat of a red herring from you, remembering that Astraeus don’t actually charge for type-ratings ( e.g. see above ) and all training ( once you are employed by an airline ) is subsequently paid for by that airline.
That said, Bond Aviation, as a TRTO, will indeed charge for a type rating because that’s the business that they ( Bond Aviation ) are in, i.e. ‘selling’ type ratings to those people, and airlines, that want them – and, let’s say it once again, nobody is forcing anybody into doing a type rating, IT’S THEIR CHOICE to do it !
W.r.t. ’Through a bond the successful applicant will pay their dues.’
Indeed, but those already type-rated (e.g. maybe the likes of me, along with those people who’ve decided to pay for their own type-rating ) will not be bonded and would therefore be free to leave the employment of an airline without fear of penalty if either it, or their circumstances, choose to not be to their best interests ( subject, of course, to the normal contractural T&C’s ).
W.r.t. ’People want jobs so let’s charge them for it because we are not doing well or we are still using 09/11 as an excuse to publish low yields.’
But we’ve not done that. Indeed we started an airline when pretty much all of the rest of the industry ( e.g. the likes of BA, Emirates, Cathay Pacific and the rest of the so called – according to you - successful conglomerates ) were screaming doom and gloom and laying off staff by the hundreds and thousands – wherein our subsequent success speaks for itself, and this might be an apt time to remind you of some of it:
- Astraeus were the fastest airline start-up in the history of UK aviation ( and this might even include a broader spectrum than just the UK ) – having gone from a blank sheet of paper to two B737-300’s in 3 months, with an additional two B737-700’s joining the fleet less than four weeks after, and a further two B737-300’s ( bringing the fleet up to six aircraft ) within one year of the very first flight.
- We went from an initial start-up team of a half-dozen people, to eighteen months later employing 240 staff ( more than 70 of which are pilots – many of them ex BWA - some of whom required a B737 type rating, and which Astraeus paid for ).
- In August last year ( i.e. only 5 months after the first flight took place ) Astraeus were the world leader in utilisation of the B737 – we even beat EasyJet - which, for a charter operator, is truly astounding.
- In the year to end of March'03 we operated in to & out of 133 different airports throughout Europe, Africa, CIS, Middle East, etc.
- Astraeus presently operate the longest B737 scheduled service in the world, i.e. LGW to Malabo in Equatorial Guinea.
And I could go on but it’ll probably be lost on you…..
Basically SirD, you’re in a p!ss!ng contest which you can’t win ( certainly not against me ) – coz I’ve got all the facts, whereas all you’ve got is insinuation, hearsay, puerile comments, and not much else by way of substance or real experience of life in an airline at the cutting edge and / or senior management level.
Eagerly awaiting your next load of verbiage – so that I can shoot it down for the BS that it actually is.
Yours,
CD.
Last edited by CrashDive; 24th Aug 2003 at 06:41.
Some people want to pay for jet type ratings to get the career start they desire. They can afford to do so.
All that is being offered here is a very proper product for such people. Its a well thought out product that actually achieves something worthwhile rather unlike the many holllow 'type ratings' offered elsewhere.
So good luck to anyone who can and does purchase such a product. You'll very probably walk into easy/Ryan/Jet2/Baby or any of the the other airlines that are recruiting for that hot seat in a 737. Your investment may well pay off in terms of increased earnings by not being a raw cadet, in terms of being employed in the first place and in terms of having received good quality initial training.
I sympathise with all Wannabes who feel that they cannot afford this investment and that as such they are being put back in the queue due to a lack of cash.
However I would give comfort to them in speculating that the numbers who can and will take up such a product as being offered by Bond/Astraeus will be small. This small number will have to be pretty sharp cookies anyway so, perhaps, they always were ahead of you in the queue even before they bought this particular product.
I very much doubt the scheme is a major profit centre for Astraeus. More likely it adds to the bottom line whilst bringing benefits such a supporting a well resourced training department. Such as providing a ready stream of decent new FO's should the need arise. Such as increasing utilisation of resources during the seasonal troughs of the business plan.
Nobody is being milked by exorbitant fees here. The sums involved seem pretty much in line with what it actually costs to get someone actually signed off *on the line* in a jet airline.
I would rather the industry norm was a Frzn ARPL CPL/IR and then the airlines paid for MCC, Type conversion and line training then paid you as a pukka First Officer.
That was the norm not so long ago and I was a very lucky boy to experience that.
But these are dark days. The market dictates the height of the limbo bar you have to clear. To blame people for providing the ways and means of clearing that limbo bar is to wilfully ignore the market conditions. Thats not fair.
The good news is that the market is improving and so the limbo bar is going to rise to more comfortable levels. Hang in there and eventually if you have the ability to keep plugging away you'll probably make it sometime in the next 10 years.
To address briefly some of the negative posts made against Hamrah - I doubt you could find any airline chief exec who has done more to help Wannabes. Simply that.
Cheers,
WWW
All that is being offered here is a very proper product for such people. Its a well thought out product that actually achieves something worthwhile rather unlike the many holllow 'type ratings' offered elsewhere.
So good luck to anyone who can and does purchase such a product. You'll very probably walk into easy/Ryan/Jet2/Baby or any of the the other airlines that are recruiting for that hot seat in a 737. Your investment may well pay off in terms of increased earnings by not being a raw cadet, in terms of being employed in the first place and in terms of having received good quality initial training.
I sympathise with all Wannabes who feel that they cannot afford this investment and that as such they are being put back in the queue due to a lack of cash.
However I would give comfort to them in speculating that the numbers who can and will take up such a product as being offered by Bond/Astraeus will be small. This small number will have to be pretty sharp cookies anyway so, perhaps, they always were ahead of you in the queue even before they bought this particular product.
I very much doubt the scheme is a major profit centre for Astraeus. More likely it adds to the bottom line whilst bringing benefits such a supporting a well resourced training department. Such as providing a ready stream of decent new FO's should the need arise. Such as increasing utilisation of resources during the seasonal troughs of the business plan.
Nobody is being milked by exorbitant fees here. The sums involved seem pretty much in line with what it actually costs to get someone actually signed off *on the line* in a jet airline.
I would rather the industry norm was a Frzn ARPL CPL/IR and then the airlines paid for MCC, Type conversion and line training then paid you as a pukka First Officer.
That was the norm not so long ago and I was a very lucky boy to experience that.
But these are dark days. The market dictates the height of the limbo bar you have to clear. To blame people for providing the ways and means of clearing that limbo bar is to wilfully ignore the market conditions. Thats not fair.
The good news is that the market is improving and so the limbo bar is going to rise to more comfortable levels. Hang in there and eventually if you have the ability to keep plugging away you'll probably make it sometime in the next 10 years.
To address briefly some of the negative posts made against Hamrah - I doubt you could find any airline chief exec who has done more to help Wannabes. Simply that.
Cheers,
WWW
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WWW ( Andy ), might I congratulate you on yet another of your very nicely put together replies - bravo !
Hulk.
W.r.t. 'Cash drive, what do you try to prove?.'
Nothing - I just don't care much for people bad mouthing my colleagues ( it’s called loyalty ), especially so when they do this without full or accurate knowledge of the facts.
Look, one of the reasons that PPRuNe is so successful is that it is a place where wannabes, etc, are able to obtain knowledgeable, honest and accurate information from people who actually / daily work within the aviation industry, i.e. from people who have themselves been through the system and understand how it works – people like Danny, John, Robin, Andy, et al ( and me ).
And whilst you might not like what we/I have to say ( i.e. don’t shoot the messenger ), we/I contribute in all honesty and as accurately as we/I know to be the truth – we/I have always done this, and will continue to do so.
W.r.t. 'we know you make money from some desperated pilots.'
Actually I don't - I get paid a salary just like the other 70 or so line pilots at Astraeus.
W.r.t. 'I have pity of a company like yours,'
Thanks - your pity is much appreciated.
W.r.t 'your asstrayous(this company name is so stupid for a UK airline)'
Your entitled to your opinion - and to be fair, we too had some debate about it, however it would seemingly be quite distinctive name and if you are looking for some Britishness about it, our aircraft predominantly have a 'G' as the first letter of registration, as well as having a Union Jack flag under the cockpit windows, and it is a company which ( unlike, say, Virgin Atlantic ) is wholly owned by UK interests.
Incidentally, Astraeus carried, just under ½ million passengers in it's first year, and is set to exceed that by a considerable margin this year – which, imho, is not too bad for an airline with 'stupid' name ( as you put it ).
W.r.t. 'we know each time a student join your ripp off school, you receive a nice check for every students you can enroll.’
Uhm, so just who is this ‘we’ that you are referring to ? And what makes you so sure that I receive a check (sic) ?
The real truth ( rather than the one in your mind ) is that you actually know nothing about me and, more to the point, what you say is wrong.
W.r.t. ’you pay is not enough,it is why you advertise for your company.'
( with a little chuckle ) Is anybodies pay ever enough ?
I would indeed be happy to recommend the type rating training course which Bond Aviation supply, as I happen to know that it is 1st class ( something which WWW also alludes to ) as exemplified by the number of people who’ve obtained employment since they completed it ( which kind of speaks for itself ).
In plain English – for those people, and airlines, that want to make use of the service, and that are able to afford it, it offers excellent training and value for money; Just as, say, with OATS and / or BAe and their training courses, you’re getting quality.
Question – did you begrudge it when your flight training school made money from you as you progressed through your flying training ?
W.r.t. 'we do not care if you have a JAA or FAA license and few hours on your Boeing, I am sure you can not even fly a cessna 152 in level flight without a FMC!'
LOL - I wouldn't be quite so sure but, as it's been a few years since I did any stick and rudder in a spam can, you might have a point !
W.r.t. 'please,go away with your scam, we do not need guys like you.'
Just because you don’t want to do it ( or can't afford to do it ) does not make it a 'scam'.
Nb. The the dictionary definition of scam is: ‘a trick or swindle; a fraud’ - which given that at the end of their type rating course the people who do it are the proud owners of a JAA stamp in the license which says that they are type rated to pilots licensed to fly ‘B737 300 thru 800’, and that they now stand a high probability of landing an airline pilots job ( whereas without it they wouldn’t have done ) and which is why the did it – it’s hardly a scam ( as you put it ).
Also, what Bond charge ( imho ), is actually slightly less money than the normal market rate, and for level and quality of training that’s on offer I’m surprised that it’s not a lot more expensive.
W.r.t. 'and you are a super moderator???(damn, they really pay you crap to become a moderator!!!! )'
ROFLOL - getting paid to moderate PPRuNe, you obviously don't know Capt.PPRuNe very well – he’s a man with long pockets and short arms. ( Sorry Danny, I couldn’t resist )
W.r.t ’SAD WORLD!!!’
It might be where you are, but I’m having a ball !
W.r.t. 'who is talking to win?'
Just putting my point of view, albeit with my usual forthrightness.
W.r.t. ’you have all the fact?'
Well I’ve quite obviously got more of them than does SirD.
W.r.t. ’well, you still do not have my money with all the BS you write about your SCAM!’
Dear oh dear, if I were you mate I’d go and take a chill pill and lie down in some shade.
Hulk.
W.r.t. 'Cash drive, what do you try to prove?.'
Nothing - I just don't care much for people bad mouthing my colleagues ( it’s called loyalty ), especially so when they do this without full or accurate knowledge of the facts.
Look, one of the reasons that PPRuNe is so successful is that it is a place where wannabes, etc, are able to obtain knowledgeable, honest and accurate information from people who actually / daily work within the aviation industry, i.e. from people who have themselves been through the system and understand how it works – people like Danny, John, Robin, Andy, et al ( and me ).
And whilst you might not like what we/I have to say ( i.e. don’t shoot the messenger ), we/I contribute in all honesty and as accurately as we/I know to be the truth – we/I have always done this, and will continue to do so.
W.r.t. 'we know you make money from some desperated pilots.'
Actually I don't - I get paid a salary just like the other 70 or so line pilots at Astraeus.
W.r.t. 'I have pity of a company like yours,'
Thanks - your pity is much appreciated.
W.r.t 'your asstrayous(this company name is so stupid for a UK airline)'
Your entitled to your opinion - and to be fair, we too had some debate about it, however it would seemingly be quite distinctive name and if you are looking for some Britishness about it, our aircraft predominantly have a 'G' as the first letter of registration, as well as having a Union Jack flag under the cockpit windows, and it is a company which ( unlike, say, Virgin Atlantic ) is wholly owned by UK interests.
Incidentally, Astraeus carried, just under ½ million passengers in it's first year, and is set to exceed that by a considerable margin this year – which, imho, is not too bad for an airline with 'stupid' name ( as you put it ).
W.r.t. 'we know each time a student join your ripp off school, you receive a nice check for every students you can enroll.’
Uhm, so just who is this ‘we’ that you are referring to ? And what makes you so sure that I receive a check (sic) ?
The real truth ( rather than the one in your mind ) is that you actually know nothing about me and, more to the point, what you say is wrong.
W.r.t. ’you pay is not enough,it is why you advertise for your company.'
( with a little chuckle ) Is anybodies pay ever enough ?
I would indeed be happy to recommend the type rating training course which Bond Aviation supply, as I happen to know that it is 1st class ( something which WWW also alludes to ) as exemplified by the number of people who’ve obtained employment since they completed it ( which kind of speaks for itself ).
In plain English – for those people, and airlines, that want to make use of the service, and that are able to afford it, it offers excellent training and value for money; Just as, say, with OATS and / or BAe and their training courses, you’re getting quality.
Question – did you begrudge it when your flight training school made money from you as you progressed through your flying training ?
W.r.t. 'we do not care if you have a JAA or FAA license and few hours on your Boeing, I am sure you can not even fly a cessna 152 in level flight without a FMC!'
LOL - I wouldn't be quite so sure but, as it's been a few years since I did any stick and rudder in a spam can, you might have a point !
W.r.t. 'please,go away with your scam, we do not need guys like you.'
Just because you don’t want to do it ( or can't afford to do it ) does not make it a 'scam'.
Nb. The the dictionary definition of scam is: ‘a trick or swindle; a fraud’ - which given that at the end of their type rating course the people who do it are the proud owners of a JAA stamp in the license which says that they are type rated to pilots licensed to fly ‘B737 300 thru 800’, and that they now stand a high probability of landing an airline pilots job ( whereas without it they wouldn’t have done ) and which is why the did it – it’s hardly a scam ( as you put it ).
Also, what Bond charge ( imho ), is actually slightly less money than the normal market rate, and for level and quality of training that’s on offer I’m surprised that it’s not a lot more expensive.
W.r.t. 'and you are a super moderator???(damn, they really pay you crap to become a moderator!!!! )'
ROFLOL - getting paid to moderate PPRuNe, you obviously don't know Capt.PPRuNe very well – he’s a man with long pockets and short arms. ( Sorry Danny, I couldn’t resist )
W.r.t ’SAD WORLD!!!’
It might be where you are, but I’m having a ball !
W.r.t. 'who is talking to win?'
Just putting my point of view, albeit with my usual forthrightness.
W.r.t. ’you have all the fact?'
Well I’ve quite obviously got more of them than does SirD.
W.r.t. ’well, you still do not have my money with all the BS you write about your SCAM!’
Dear oh dear, if I were you mate I’d go and take a chill pill and lie down in some shade.
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I was going to try and post a rebuttal of some of the arguments put forward, but it since the PPRuNe Moderators have circled the wagons, there is probably little point.
I remember the days (not so long ago) when at PPRuNe seminars the mantra was "dont pay for a type rating".
I remember the days (not so long ago) when at PPRuNe seminars the mantra was "dont pay for a type rating".
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"do the maths".............
£22000 for a type rating and no guarantee of a job.
100 hours on type.....which is about two weeks experience in the Summer season. You will be left feeling just about happy enough to know how the engine start sequence works on a BOEING. 100 hours will NOT give you any feeling of comfort in the aircraft, or in your skills to handle it.
That is exactly why most DECENT airlines look for at least 500 hours on type, and recency with it.
HAMRAH et al, as you are obviously top brass.... do you agree with that sentiment?
Why don't you just do away with having employed FO's altogether (sorry Danny!) and have people prepared to work for nothing? Oh, hang on. You may have thought of that already.
Don't do it wannabees. You will find it hard to get a job with a paid for type rating and NO EXPERIENCE. Which is exactly what 100 hours on type is..... nothing.
£22000 for a type rating and no guarantee of a job.
100 hours on type.....which is about two weeks experience in the Summer season. You will be left feeling just about happy enough to know how the engine start sequence works on a BOEING. 100 hours will NOT give you any feeling of comfort in the aircraft, or in your skills to handle it.
That is exactly why most DECENT airlines look for at least 500 hours on type, and recency with it.
HAMRAH et al, as you are obviously top brass.... do you agree with that sentiment?
Why don't you just do away with having employed FO's altogether (sorry Danny!) and have people prepared to work for nothing? Oh, hang on. You may have thought of that already.
Don't do it wannabees. You will find it hard to get a job with a paid for type rating and NO EXPERIENCE. Which is exactly what 100 hours on type is..... nothing.
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Surely the whole point of line training is that you are able to get the a/c down in one piece? It doesn't make you an expert.
I see that Aer Arran Express are asking people to contact them if they are prepared to pay for an ATR 42 type rating.
I see that Channel Express want B737 type rated pilots with a minmum of 300 hours - not so far off 100 in a 'busy' airline.
imho, there is virtually no movement into airlines at present with a fATPL but airlines ARE looking at type rated pilots. The way I see it is that if you want the type rating then the 'line training' is twin hours at £90 ph - Cheapest twin in the UK I reckon!
We ALL know the argument that type rating yourself is a fu****g rip-off, but it is no more a gamble than obtaining a fATPL for 60k and then HOPING 'someone' will like your cv and employ you , then spending 6k to instruct and make 10k pa when they don't, and then trying to save money to fly the twin occasionally. If these operators 'should' be paying for type rating training, why'shoudn't' they pay for your fATPL, after all you need that as well to fly for them. Make your own informed choices....
I see that Aer Arran Express are asking people to contact them if they are prepared to pay for an ATR 42 type rating.
I see that Channel Express want B737 type rated pilots with a minmum of 300 hours - not so far off 100 in a 'busy' airline.
imho, there is virtually no movement into airlines at present with a fATPL but airlines ARE looking at type rated pilots. The way I see it is that if you want the type rating then the 'line training' is twin hours at £90 ph - Cheapest twin in the UK I reckon!
We ALL know the argument that type rating yourself is a fu****g rip-off, but it is no more a gamble than obtaining a fATPL for 60k and then HOPING 'someone' will like your cv and employ you , then spending 6k to instruct and make 10k pa when they don't, and then trying to save money to fly the twin occasionally. If these operators 'should' be paying for type rating training, why'shoudn't' they pay for your fATPL, after all you need that as well to fly for them. Make your own informed choices....
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Calm down, people. No-one here is trying to rip anyone off. It doesn't help to get all hot under the collar with those in the industry who are prepared to put their heads over the parapet and defend their position - and that position is entirely legal, reasonable and ethical, especially when you are trying to keep a business alive that employs hundreds of people!
The fact is, and I'm sure that none of you would disagree, that the airline business as a whole is still suffering great difficulties. Costs have increased greatly over the last couple of years, yet fares are lower than ever. Hence there's very little money around to invest in new aircraft and routes. Yes, I know there are one or two exceptions, but they are very few and far between. It doesn't take a great leap of logic to understand that, without expansion, new jobs in the industry rely on 'dead men's shoes' being filled - replacement of retirees, basically. The upshot is that there are very few jobs available, and for those that are, pre-qualified pilots will be preferred by airlines.
Of course, those airlines that are recruiting will take the best-qualified people that they can get. It is not for them to be 'fair' to the overall group of unemployed pilots, or to any sub-group like 'wannabes'; in any case, what is fair to one pilot will be grossly unfair to another. The better-funded of those unemployed will spend their money to get better qualified to take those few jobs. That's a fact of life, and operates even when there are loads of jobs around, although it has less effect on the less well-off wannabes. Because there are those with the money to spend, there will be businesses who will gladly take their money. Many of those businesses won't give two hoots about the effectiveness of their training or the value it gives to their customer. Bond/Astraeus is not one of those, as far as I can tell.
I totally understand when you complain that when you started it seemed that all you would need would be a CAA/JAA fATPL, 250 or so light-aircraft hours and a job in EZ/Monarch/Air 2000 or whoever would be yours for the taking. Unfortunately, many of you began training at a time when the airline industry was undergoing unprecedented (and unlikely to be repeated) expansion, and almost anyone who could walk in the door and recognise an aeroplane at 50 paces could get a job. Well, as they have a habit of doing, things have changed, and not just in aviation.
I don't like it any more than you do, but self-funded type ratings are, for the moment (and it won't be a short one!), a fact of life. They aren't the only way, as WWW sugested above, but they exist and they do affect the market. If you decide that that you can afford and wish to attempt such a thing, then the Bond/Astraeus product seems to be a very good example of its type. If you can't afford it, or you fervently believe that your fATPL should be enough, I wish you the best of luck. Once airlines' demand for pilots exceeds the TRTOs' ability to provide, they will restart their own training programmes - but I wouldn't hold my breath....
Scroggs
The fact is, and I'm sure that none of you would disagree, that the airline business as a whole is still suffering great difficulties. Costs have increased greatly over the last couple of years, yet fares are lower than ever. Hence there's very little money around to invest in new aircraft and routes. Yes, I know there are one or two exceptions, but they are very few and far between. It doesn't take a great leap of logic to understand that, without expansion, new jobs in the industry rely on 'dead men's shoes' being filled - replacement of retirees, basically. The upshot is that there are very few jobs available, and for those that are, pre-qualified pilots will be preferred by airlines.
Of course, those airlines that are recruiting will take the best-qualified people that they can get. It is not for them to be 'fair' to the overall group of unemployed pilots, or to any sub-group like 'wannabes'; in any case, what is fair to one pilot will be grossly unfair to another. The better-funded of those unemployed will spend their money to get better qualified to take those few jobs. That's a fact of life, and operates even when there are loads of jobs around, although it has less effect on the less well-off wannabes. Because there are those with the money to spend, there will be businesses who will gladly take their money. Many of those businesses won't give two hoots about the effectiveness of their training or the value it gives to their customer. Bond/Astraeus is not one of those, as far as I can tell.
I totally understand when you complain that when you started it seemed that all you would need would be a CAA/JAA fATPL, 250 or so light-aircraft hours and a job in EZ/Monarch/Air 2000 or whoever would be yours for the taking. Unfortunately, many of you began training at a time when the airline industry was undergoing unprecedented (and unlikely to be repeated) expansion, and almost anyone who could walk in the door and recognise an aeroplane at 50 paces could get a job. Well, as they have a habit of doing, things have changed, and not just in aviation.
I don't like it any more than you do, but self-funded type ratings are, for the moment (and it won't be a short one!), a fact of life. They aren't the only way, as WWW sugested above, but they exist and they do affect the market. If you decide that that you can afford and wish to attempt such a thing, then the Bond/Astraeus product seems to be a very good example of its type. If you can't afford it, or you fervently believe that your fATPL should be enough, I wish you the best of luck. Once airlines' demand for pilots exceeds the TRTOs' ability to provide, they will restart their own training programmes - but I wouldn't hold my breath....
Scroggs
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It used to be, until a couple of years ago, that an FATPL was the basis for qualifying as a commercial pilot. But now, the airlines wish to make even more profit through demanding that prospective employees pay for their own TRs. Up to £60,000 used to be enough to cripple most student pilots financially, but £85,000 is one hell of a lot of money to have to spend, just to get a job with crap and uncertain hours, not a huge starting salary, and absolutely no career stability- just think of the number of "fine" airlines which have gone bust over the years, leaving their flight crews at the bottom of the pile in a another airline, (if they manage to find a job).
The way things are going, only the very rich will be in the cockpit.
On the positive side, a lot of budding pilot may just not take up training, due to the costs involved. (I certainly have noticed a fall off in the number of postings to the Wannabes forum of late.) Inevitably, the airlines will, through such lack of investment, be in the s**t again, and the same repeating cycle of boom and bust will go on.
And, Hamrah, Crashdive, WWW- did you all pay for your type ratings?? (Rhetorical question, but I wouldn't mind having replies.)
(My sincere apologies Tailscrape, mixed you up with Crashdive in the above.)
The way things are going, only the very rich will be in the cockpit.
On the positive side, a lot of budding pilot may just not take up training, due to the costs involved. (I certainly have noticed a fall off in the number of postings to the Wannabes forum of late.) Inevitably, the airlines will, through such lack of investment, be in the s**t again, and the same repeating cycle of boom and bust will go on.
And, Hamrah, Crashdive, WWW- did you all pay for your type ratings?? (Rhetorical question, but I wouldn't mind having replies.)
(My sincere apologies Tailscrape, mixed you up with Crashdive in the above.)
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personaly, I have enough hours to join an airline, well above 1500h.I have the money to buy my own type. Why I do not buy it? I wait for a REAL airline who could train me on their plane and hire me after that. It is a total no sens to pay a type when the market is plenty of B737 pilots who are beging for a job. Why not keep his money and use it as a carot! 
I am sure in a few months, airline would like to see my nice fresh banknotes, but hold on!,I decide they way I want be trained and I decide what you will write on my contract.(the customer is King)
Until now, I have found only arrogant airlines trying to sell type ratings. eh eh...my bank account is full and I have a good life without debt, all I have to do, it is to wait (time is money!)a better time.
I am sure in a few months, airline would like to see my nice fresh banknotes, but hold on!,I decide they way I want be trained and I decide what you will write on my contract.(the customer is King
)Until now, I have found only arrogant airlines trying to sell type ratings. eh eh...my bank account is full and I have a good life without debt, all I have to do, it is to wait (time is money!
)a better time.
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Flyergirl, if these airlines are making 'even more profit' by employing type-rated pilots, how come so many 'fine' airlines have gone bust? The trouble is that profit is exceedingly hard to come by just now, and adding to an airline's expenses by offering free training to pilots it doesn't need is not going to help!
The perspectives of Hamrah, Crashdive, myself and even that youngster WWW are considerably longer than those of the majority of wannabes. We have seen the industry in good times and bad. When aviation has a bad time, wannabes lose out - and that's what's happening now. Paid-for type ratings were common in the early '90s, the last aviation recession, but died out as things improved later that decade. All you can do is hope it gets better quickly this time.
Hulk, as a baby pilot looking for a job, you are not the customer. The airline is! You are the product for sale. If you don't meet the airlines' requirements, you will not be hired. It's simple.
Sir Donald, unfortunately many professions (if ours can be counted as such) require considerable post-graduate investment by their practitioners. The only reason doctors don't is that the country has an enormous demand for them, and is committed by its health policy to provide them. There is no such commitment or responsibility to provide pilots - nor will there ever be!
As it happens, through the fact that doctors are required to take two degrees, their debts on graduation are larger than most students' - believe me, I had to pay for one such medical student! And any doctor who leaves the NHS for private practice is financially responsible for his or her own continuing process of education and training, as are most lawyers and accountants.
Scroggs
The perspectives of Hamrah, Crashdive, myself and even that youngster WWW are considerably longer than those of the majority of wannabes. We have seen the industry in good times and bad. When aviation has a bad time, wannabes lose out - and that's what's happening now. Paid-for type ratings were common in the early '90s, the last aviation recession, but died out as things improved later that decade. All you can do is hope it gets better quickly this time.
Hulk, as a baby pilot looking for a job, you are not the customer. The airline is! You are the product for sale. If you don't meet the airlines' requirements, you will not be hired. It's simple.
Sir Donald, unfortunately many professions (if ours can be counted as such) require considerable post-graduate investment by their practitioners. The only reason doctors don't is that the country has an enormous demand for them, and is committed by its health policy to provide them. There is no such commitment or responsibility to provide pilots - nor will there ever be!
As it happens, through the fact that doctors are required to take two degrees, their debts on graduation are larger than most students' - believe me, I had to pay for one such medical student! And any doctor who leaves the NHS for private practice is financially responsible for his or her own continuing process of education and training, as are most lawyers and accountants.
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Come on Scroggs,
By accepting your reasoning, a prospective employee pays out a huge chunk of money to join an airline, works for nothing for them for a year, making a take home pay of considerably less than the cost of the training, then decides that, for whatever reason she/he wants to/ has to move on after a year or two, to a different airline, different aircraft. Then, the whole sleazy process starts again. Hardly a recipe for paying your bills?
It's all very well for you moderators to be on the airlines' side just now, since you are comfortably in employment, but I remember your own not so positive postings a couple of years ago, when your own jobs were very much in jeopardy. Wern't you advocating NOT to pay for type ratings some time ago?
By accepting your reasoning, a prospective employee pays out a huge chunk of money to join an airline, works for nothing for them for a year, making a take home pay of considerably less than the cost of the training, then decides that, for whatever reason she/he wants to/ has to move on after a year or two, to a different airline, different aircraft. Then, the whole sleazy process starts again. Hardly a recipe for paying your bills?
It's all very well for you moderators to be on the airlines' side just now, since you are comfortably in employment, but I remember your own not so positive postings a couple of years ago, when your own jobs were very much in jeopardy. Wern't you advocating NOT to pay for type ratings some time ago?
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It's easy enough to see both sides to this- the airlines want to save money, and the wannabees can't afford to borrow any more. In an ideal world, we wouldn't even be considering buying our own type ratings.
Ideally, it would not be possible or allowed to get a TR outside an airline-funded training structure. And beer would be free. And the sea would be made of lemonade.
Ho, hum.
Ideally, it would not be possible or allowed to get a TR outside an airline-funded training structure. And beer would be free. And the sea would be made of lemonade.
Ho, hum.
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Fastest start up airline then!
I believe Astraeus was first registered in January 2001. First flight in April 2002 to Malaga so that makes 15 months!!!
Sounds like Astreaus was on the cards before the demise of BWA.
I believe Astraeus was first registered in January 2001. First flight in April 2002 to Malaga so that makes 15 months!!!
Sounds like Astreaus was on the cards before the demise of BWA.
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Southend Geeza - it's interesting that you raise this, as Astraeus was initially created ( i.e. long prior to 911 ) to act as a vehicle for the provision of a scheduled service airline, ostensibly to serve the route between LHR and LCA ( if my memory serves me right ? )
Indeed, somewhat ironically, this proposed airline venture was even floated past the then ( i.e. pre of sping 2001 'new' ) management team of BWA - but, unfortunaelty ( for them ), they were not able to see the potential of it ( go figure ) and they turned it down.
Resultant from this, the Astraeus name was 'parked' at Company's House for potential future use - following which it somewhat, and fortunately, allowed us to 'hit the ground running' when BWA went completely down the crapper.
It's a funny old world !
Indeed, somewhat ironically, this proposed airline venture was even floated past the then ( i.e. pre of sping 2001 'new' ) management team of BWA - but, unfortunaelty ( for them ), they were not able to see the potential of it ( go figure ) and they turned it down.
Resultant from this, the Astraeus name was 'parked' at Company's House for potential future use - following which it somewhat, and fortunately, allowed us to 'hit the ground running' when BWA went completely down the crapper.
It's a funny old world !
Scroggs raised the point about historical perspective.
In the early 90's following the last cyclical crash of the airline industry British Midland were offering 737 self funded type ratings with the tantilising offer that all graduates would be "evaluated for entry to British Midland".
The ratio of graduates to those then employed was considerable.
So this is nothing new. Indeed Ryanair have been charging for no promise type ratings for ages now. easyJet have a scheme whereby you effectively pay for you type rating through lower pay but there is no commitment to you and if you screw up or they can't take you then its a loan to a bank you owe. Numerous other small companies offer type rating only courses and the likes of BAC Express are selling type ratings on Sheds with the promise that they may well probably take you on - maybe.
Its industry generic at the moment.
Yes - up until about 6 months ago I was saying don't pay for type ratings. I still am with a few caveats. The most important of which are:
1) Do it only if you have a lot of cash
2) If you are doing it do a worthwhile one like the Astraeus/Bond product
3) Its only now worth doing it as the industry is starting to pick up and so employment is somewhat likely
Someone asked if I paid for my own type rating. No. I paid for my own training, I worked for peanuts as a FI and I moved to a foreign country to step up the ladder. And those were in the very very good times when dozens of airlines were sponsoring and the market was at its peak. I consider myself lucky. But not as lucky as some 18yr old taken off the playing field by BA and given a full cadetship.
No point and no value in looking back nor in playing the "it was alright in your day" card. There is ALWAYS someone in aviation who has a better job, got it easier and earns more money.
The trick is to look down the ladder, not up, and be grateful.
Tailscrape - I believe a 737 rating conducted by an airline that someone has heard of including the Final Line Check sign off WILL be of immense value in securing a full time 737 job.
I hate to see Wannabes having to pay for type ratings. I eagerly await the day when nobody has to. If for no other reason than it undermines the pay and status of everyone on the career ladder. But also out of a sense of fair play and out of an all too keen rememberance that I was a Wannabe only 3 years ago. I remember how insurmountable the wall looks from the outside.
If you can't afford fancy schools and fancy type ratings well then just do your best, network like crazy and most importantly WAIT. The next decade is going to see a 50% increase in air travel which means (with same size aircraft) something like 5,000 extra pilots required. 500pa + retirements should provide a pretty healthy Wannabe environment to come.
Good luck to one and all whichever route you follow. The job has its highly polarised up and down sides. I firmly believe though that it is a job that still stands out amongst nearly all others as being the one to have.
Cheers
WWW
In the early 90's following the last cyclical crash of the airline industry British Midland were offering 737 self funded type ratings with the tantilising offer that all graduates would be "evaluated for entry to British Midland".
The ratio of graduates to those then employed was considerable.
So this is nothing new. Indeed Ryanair have been charging for no promise type ratings for ages now. easyJet have a scheme whereby you effectively pay for you type rating through lower pay but there is no commitment to you and if you screw up or they can't take you then its a loan to a bank you owe. Numerous other small companies offer type rating only courses and the likes of BAC Express are selling type ratings on Sheds with the promise that they may well probably take you on - maybe.
Its industry generic at the moment.
Yes - up until about 6 months ago I was saying don't pay for type ratings. I still am with a few caveats. The most important of which are:
1) Do it only if you have a lot of cash
2) If you are doing it do a worthwhile one like the Astraeus/Bond product
3) Its only now worth doing it as the industry is starting to pick up and so employment is somewhat likely
Someone asked if I paid for my own type rating. No. I paid for my own training, I worked for peanuts as a FI and I moved to a foreign country to step up the ladder. And those were in the very very good times when dozens of airlines were sponsoring and the market was at its peak. I consider myself lucky. But not as lucky as some 18yr old taken off the playing field by BA and given a full cadetship.
No point and no value in looking back nor in playing the "it was alright in your day" card. There is ALWAYS someone in aviation who has a better job, got it easier and earns more money.
The trick is to look down the ladder, not up, and be grateful.
Tailscrape - I believe a 737 rating conducted by an airline that someone has heard of including the Final Line Check sign off WILL be of immense value in securing a full time 737 job.
I hate to see Wannabes having to pay for type ratings. I eagerly await the day when nobody has to. If for no other reason than it undermines the pay and status of everyone on the career ladder. But also out of a sense of fair play and out of an all too keen rememberance that I was a Wannabe only 3 years ago. I remember how insurmountable the wall looks from the outside.
If you can't afford fancy schools and fancy type ratings well then just do your best, network like crazy and most importantly WAIT. The next decade is going to see a 50% increase in air travel which means (with same size aircraft) something like 5,000 extra pilots required. 500pa + retirements should provide a pretty healthy Wannabe environment to come.
Good luck to one and all whichever route you follow. The job has its highly polarised up and down sides. I firmly believe though that it is a job that still stands out amongst nearly all others as being the one to have.
Cheers
WWW
I have no involvement whatsoever with Astraeus. Indeed I struggle to spell the name correctly on most posts.
You can lament the fact that some people choose to do self funded jet type ratings. But you can't really have a go at a company for offering a good one.
If it really bugs you so much then:
a) Don't apply
b) Encourage everyone you know to boycot the scheme
c) Never fly with the airline in question
d) Write to your MP
e) Write to the BBC
f) Don't let the door hit your @r5e on the way out
Cheers
WWW
You can lament the fact that some people choose to do self funded jet type ratings. But you can't really have a go at a company for offering a good one.
If it really bugs you so much then:
a) Don't apply
b) Encourage everyone you know to boycot the scheme
c) Never fly with the airline in question
d) Write to your MP
e) Write to the BBC
f) Don't let the door hit your @r5e on the way out
Cheers
WWW
Terrier
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: moonbase alpha
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WWW
You still say nothing about the 100 hours issue. You know yourself very well that many 100 hour pilots will struggle on a commercial jet.
It is a huge gamble.
Ask yourself why easy etc look for 500+ hours on type..........
No one has to apply, your comments are noted and accepted. However, debate on the issue is a good thing.
You still say nothing about the 100 hours issue. You know yourself very well that many 100 hour pilots will struggle on a commercial jet.
It is a huge gamble.
Ask yourself why easy etc look for 500+ hours on type..........
No one has to apply, your comments are noted and accepted. However, debate on the issue is a good thing.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
Age: 55
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WWW,
I have the feeling that if you were still on this side of the wall you would be organising things like:
a) Encouraging everyone you know to boycot the scheme
b) Never fly with the airline in question
c) Write to your MP
d) Write to the BBC
In fact your post was going pretty well until you wrote:
Some of us have made some pretty big sacrifices to get our professional qualifications, and it doesn't really sit well when moderators denigrate the time, effort and expense we have expended by relating it to a PC World purchase.
My own opinion on the buying a type rating thing is that this is a phenomenon that is here to stay. Do you really think the beancounters are going to give up a revenue stream/cost reduction that easily? Even if you do buy a type rating and go to an airline with it, there are still some operators that will bond for a year due to the cost of "differences training". Something of a double whammy, n'est pas?
As for Bond's Type Rating sales not being a profit centre for Astraeus, I don't believe that for a second. Bond is a business, not an altruistic venture for wannabes. If it doesnt make a profit and add to the revenue stream of Astreaus I would be very surprised. In fact I would even be so bold to suggest it maintains a revenue stream for the company during the cold winter months.
This is not a criticism of the quality of training offered by Bond (ironic name really, when you think about it ) as I know people who have taken the course and people who provide the course. Those that have taken the course have been very happy with what they have recieved, but I cannot report a 100% success rate in those people
Fortunately there are still a few airlines that have recently recruited low houred guys and haven't charged them up front for a type rating. I only wonder how long that is going to last.
As qualified professional pilots, we have taken responsibility for the initial training risk to the tune of 45-75,000 pounds. Why is it unreasonable to expect a commercial organisation to accept a training risk after being selected by their own training organisation (interview, sim ride, trick-cylist testing etc)? Two of the most profitable airlines in Europe are at the forefront of charging for type ratings, so the slim profit margins argument doesnt really stand up on that score.
Trying to compare pilots with doctors, lawyers or dentists isn't really vaild IMHO. If they f@ck up, the worst they can do is kill one person at a time. It took Harold Shipman 20 years to kill the same number of people that a 737 could kill.
More valid would be comparing other safety critical professionals like train drivers or nuclear power station control room staff. As far as I am aware they don't need to pay for any training.
Maybe this sounds like a whiney @rsed whinge to those professional pilots who have a longer perspective, but from where I am standing, the ethics of buying a type rating is the single most important issue that I have to consider right now. As www rightly says, at some point it will undermine the pay and status of everyone on the career ladder.
I have the feeling that if you were still on this side of the wall you would be organising things like:
a) Encouraging everyone you know to boycot the scheme
b) Never fly with the airline in question
c) Write to your MP
d) Write to the BBC
In fact your post was going pretty well until you wrote:
f) Don't let the door hit your @r5e on the way out
My own opinion on the buying a type rating thing is that this is a phenomenon that is here to stay. Do you really think the beancounters are going to give up a revenue stream/cost reduction that easily? Even if you do buy a type rating and go to an airline with it, there are still some operators that will bond for a year due to the cost of "differences training". Something of a double whammy, n'est pas?
As for Bond's Type Rating sales not being a profit centre for Astraeus, I don't believe that for a second. Bond is a business, not an altruistic venture for wannabes. If it doesnt make a profit and add to the revenue stream of Astreaus I would be very surprised. In fact I would even be so bold to suggest it maintains a revenue stream for the company during the cold winter months.
This is not a criticism of the quality of training offered by Bond (ironic name really, when you think about it
) as I know people who have taken the course and people who provide the course. Those that have taken the course have been very happy with what they have recieved, but I cannot report a 100% success rate in those people
walk[ing] into easy/Ryan/Jet2/Baby or any of the the other airlines that are recruiting for that hot seat in a 737.
As qualified professional pilots, we have taken responsibility for the initial training risk to the tune of 45-75,000 pounds. Why is it unreasonable to expect a commercial organisation to accept a training risk after being selected by their own training organisation (interview, sim ride, trick-cylist testing etc)? Two of the most profitable airlines in Europe are at the forefront of charging for type ratings, so the slim profit margins argument doesnt really stand up on that score.
Trying to compare pilots with doctors, lawyers or dentists isn't really vaild IMHO. If they f@ck up, the worst they can do is kill one person at a time. It took Harold Shipman 20 years to kill the same number of people that a 737 could kill.
More valid would be comparing other safety critical professionals like train drivers or nuclear power station control room staff. As far as I am aware they don't need to pay for any training.
Maybe this sounds like a whiney @rsed whinge to those professional pilots who have a longer perspective, but from where I am standing, the ethics of buying a type rating is the single most important issue that I have to consider right now. As www rightly says, at some point it will undermine the pay and status of everyone on the career ladder.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 25th Aug 2003 at 22:09.