Astraeus

[C Lips]

Thanks Crashdive

I appreciate your info and candour. I had already made my mind up to do the rating before reading your post and nothings changed.

Aviation is all about timing and I hope it will go my way this time. If I was offered a job all good and well but my main objective was to do the 737 type rating. The market albeit very stagnant is looking for 737 type rated pilots at the moment.

Thanks to everyone for their posts on this subject

[scroggs]

touch & Go

I apologise for my tardy reply - unfortunately I've recently had to spend a distressingly large amount of my precious time slipping the surly bonds en-route to some of the world's more (or less) salubrious entertainment centres, and Pprune has had to move correspondingly down the priority list. Even when home, I'm spending a disproportionate amount of my 'rest' committing sport in the name of the British Heart Foundation's London to Brighton bike ride (to be held on 15th June - all donations gratefully accepted!). Then, I suppose, I also have to attend to the maintenance of the extensive grounds at Scroggs Towers (the gardeners being on strike - they're French, I think), check on the educational, social and emotional progress of the hoardes of mini-Scroggs, and somehow keep up the exhausting and demanding social responsibilities of a man of my position. Which is, of course, permanently recorded at the bar of my local hostelry with the everlasting thanks of mine host. Now, what were we on about?

Oh yes... type ratings. I am a strong believer that it should be up to the industry to pick up the bills for procuring the trained pilots it requires, not up to the individual. However, unlike King Canute, I recognise that the current tide is against me and I, and you, have to work with the situation we find ourselves in. There seems to be little doubt that it can, currently, sometimes be an advantage having a type rating - and that just doing the course with certain operators can present you with opportunities you might not otherwise have had. In this light, it would be crazy of me to stand on principle and ignore the reality. In any case, all I have said is that Astraeus is a commercial operator who makes you no employment promises if you should take their course.

When the debate becomes about who you should do a type-rating with, rather than whether you should do a type-rating at all, I don't believe I am compromising my principles by suggesting who might, or might not, be reputable training providers. In this case, I think Astraeus are among the good guys and, if you've decided to go the type-rating route, you could do a lot worse than try them out - I am willing and interested to hear others' opinions.

Scroggs

[alexb757]

To Be or Not To Be......

Since comments are being solicited on the merits/demerits of getting a 737 type rating with a certain FTO and I have a lttle experience, I thought I would share it with you all...for what it's worth.

Basically, I agree with all the posts re the business angle, the job situation etc. The single over-riding factor in spending your hard-earned money (let alone any bank loan!) is this: will this new qualification, without the experience, enhance your cv and increase your chances of landing your dream job? The answer is, of course, yes and no. It is a personal, individual decision that only YOU can make. People's circumstances are different, just as their goals in life. For some, it would enhance their overall qualifications, but for others and as a previous post mentioned, it would kill them! Or @ the very least, burn a huge hole in your pocket.

I don't know much about Bond/Astraeus but from what I've read, they certainly sound ethical and they appear to vet the candidates prior to taking the money and then provide quality training. So, on that basis, if you had decided to go ahead and do it, this organisation seems like a good bet.

Finally, I will just say that as an ex-pat in the US, I found myself jobless in the last recession (experienced and with a 737 type rating on my CAA ATPL, given a FAA CPL & then gained a full FAA ATP but with an MEL endorsement only) and came very close to signing on the dotted line several times (there are more 737 FTO here than any where else in the world - and all vying for your business). The advice I was given is the one I mentioned above & simply put, I was not convinced that getting a TR was going to do anything for me. The logic was that if my experience on type was not good enough to get through the door, what real difference would a bit of paper do? I spent my money on all my FAA flight instructor certificates (a lot cheaper!) & went back to instructing for a while, then bounced back. I never regretted making that decision although I did agonize for some time.

The ironic thing is that I am, once again, out of work and the situation is so bad here (approx. 9000 qulaified pilots pounding the pavement) that the US govt has given experienced pilots funding to get other type ratings to make them more marketable. I did a 737NG 15-day type rating to get it on my FAA certificate (already had the experience on an EU licence) in Feb this year. I enjoyed the course, no guarantees were made or implied but I still have no job - and this time the government paid me to do it!!!. Moral of the story: it's all a crap shoot; it will work for some but not others. If you do it, do your homework and go into it with your eyes open.

Good luck to you all - you might just need it!

[eagerbeaver]

470 hours now, attended Oxford, FI ratin and work at Cambridge, 737 with astraeus, now....


I consider myself very lucky

[C340]

Astraeus selection

Hello guys, wonder if anybody can help. Am planning to take the selection with Astraeus.

Does anybody been there and how are there psychometrics?

Any advice on how to get prepared???

Any comments would be appreciated.

Waiting for your replies

[Waggon rut]

You can't prepare for that one.

[pjdj777]

The selection is run by Bond Aviation, not Astraeus, and consists of an interview, some written psychometric tests and a sim ride.

Just be yourself in the interview, as for the written tests, well they're meant to look at your aptitude, I believe there are some books you can get to help prepare for them, not sure what they're called though.

For the sim make sure you are in current IR practice and that your scan is up to speed.

All the best

[The mole]

Astraeus type rating???

Astraeus are starting their B737 type rating again. 25k for a type ratng and 100 hours line training. Does anybody have any info on this?

[Snigs]

Sir Donald,

I think you'll find that they do have a selection process.

They take you through the psycometrics, sim, interview etc. and then assess whether you're the type of person that's likely to succeed on the type rating course and subsequently on the line. If you're not then they'll tell you, and give you the chance to save you the money you would spend/waste otherwise.

It'll cost you (I think £1000ish) but if you're assessed as ok then that's taken off the final total, if not you've saved yourself £22000ish.

Those better in the know can correct the details if necessary, but that's the broad outline.

If the time and the place are right, then you may be offered a contract with them (some have), but as far as I'm aware they don't promise one, it's your call.

[scroggs]

As I understand it, you are buying the training for a type rating; you are not being offered a job. When I buy a computer part from PC World, I don't get pissy when they don't offer me a position! It's a business transaction, that's all. No-one's forcing you to do it, are they?

Scroggs

[tailscrape]

£1000 ish to do some selection tests? What a rip off.

If this lot were a serious airline, they would assess you for nothing, and then see what happens.

As for taking £1000 away from the cost, to come up with the "bargain price" of £22000.....what a con.

Remember, a rating may cost £15000 ish. So, by my reckoning you are paying £7000 to fly in the RHS of a revenue earning pax flight. So, that is how ASTRAEUS make money is it??

It stinks, and quite frankly I would be ashamed to be associated with it.

HAMRAH, CRASH DIVE, DANNY and SNIGS.... is this how it should be? As a group who have championed the cause of Wannabees in the past, this seems an outrageous amount of money to charge people and I am surprised that your airline (which you run HAMRAH) has the front to do it.

If they pass your "selection", why have you not got the balls to offer them a job like any decent airline would?

I hope you are happy with what sounds well dodgy to me........

It seems like your magnanimity with schemes such as the PPRUNE cadetship has taken an evil new twist. Good job you are surrounded by your friends in there.....

[The mole]

Tailscrape -

You seem pretty sure it's a rip-off. I am considering actually doing the course and line training, as I think 100 hours in the LHS may be enough to get me a job elsewhere if Astraeus don't come up with the goods. I am trying to find out how many they took on last time around and how many who did the type rating then found a job elsewhere.

I think we are all aware that doing the course is no guarantee of a job- let's face it how many people do the fATPL/IR and never get a job? (another thread I suspect)

[Sally Cinnamon]

The mole - if you don't think £25,000 is too much for a 737 type rating then perhaps you could be spending too much time on pprune.

Do me a favour, take yourself away from this bulletin board for a while. Go and tell your family and friends that on top of what you have already spent on training, you are now thinking of spending £25,000 on a type rating. Make sure you tell them that there is no guarantee of a job. Be sure to tell them also that if you are lucky enough to be offered a job, how much you will earn. Then come back here and let us know how loud they laughed!

The price of a 737 rating goes up a few thousand pounds everytime I hear about a scheme like this. £30,000 by Christmas anyone??

[Sagey]

Tail,

I think you are being too harsh on Astraeus especially by labelling the scheme a rip off, the price seems pritty consistent with market rates for a type rating and I may be wrong but the 100 hours is an add on for £5-£7k? Astraeus scheme appears fairly unique in that 100 hours experience can be offered, it would be even more beneficial if a reference was given after the 100 hours (haven't got a clue if that happens tbh)

Astraeus are offering a service that the market is demanding, it is sad that many feel they need to pay for type ratings and it is a concern for the rest of us wannabes as it appears another barrier to entry (ie an extra 15-20k quid).

From what people have said about the type rating course it is one of the best going that people have had to pay for, and jobs have been given in Astraeus and other carriers.

The Pprune Cadet scheme was totally different and I believe repayment is from monthly salary similiar to any other sponsorship. It appears to be a great scheme and the lucky ones are now enjoying their careers.

I don't have the money for an ATPL so couldn't even contemplate finding more for type ratings!. I do believe that paying for type ratings is a worrying trend, it will be extrememly interesting to see how the trend changes over the next few years (whether +'ve or -'ve).

Your opinions are clear on type rating, I believe constructive reasons as to why you don't think people should pay for type ratings is far more beneficial than calling someone that provides the service a con, especially as you haven't gone through the scheme.

Sagey

[crispy banana]

Similar thread came up a few months ago here...

[flyergirl10]

There must be quite a few people out there with a hell of a lot more money than sense, if they are desperate enough to gamble £25000, with absolutely no guarantee, (in fact, rather the reverse,) of getting a job. Bad enough, the likes of BAC Express, Ryanair etc, having you pay to join them, but, at least, they are only training people whom they hope to employ.

Just how much are people willing to pay the Airline Industry to become employed, for a rather pitiful starting salary? Don’t forget, it will take a hell of a long time, if ever, to get over the financial hurdle of shelling out £50-60000, let alone, another £25000 for type rating, with no job at the end of the rainbow!!

Most other industries pay their employees to work for them, but a large percentage of the Airline Industry seems to be intent on making as much money for the Shareholders, and beggar the people in the engine room- the Flight Crew.

[Hamrah]

Just back from a night Malta, hence the late (early) hour of posting.

Lots of comments above, some valid, some just sour grapes , so let me try to put all this in perspective.

There are two main , expanding, airlines out there looking for pilots...namely Ryanair and Easyjet. Other airlines (ourselves included) have a limited requirement, with modest expansion. We also have a highly seasonal requirement, with a summer work being almost twice as high as our winter work.

Now, both of the two main expanding airlines have stopped taking ATPL (frozen or otherwise) and type rating them. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that you will find it difficult to find an airline anywhere that is recruiting AND type rating. It's a sad fact of the industry, something that has been the case in the United States for a very long time.

As part of our business, we run a TRTO, where we offer type ratings to interested candidates. We kicked this off with the PPRuNe cadets, who are now enjoying a successful career. As people came for type rating courses, we occasionally had opportunity to offer some of them contract work. This occurred as and when we had vacancies.

Those who we could not offer work to, found that just having a type rating limited their opportunities for employment. Anyone newly converting to their first Jet type must undergo 100 hours or 40 sectors of line training. So airlines looking at these individuals saw a lot of line training expense.

So we thought we are uniquely able to offer ( and it is just an offer) the facility to complete all the initial training that an individual would have to take when joining a new airline. This means not just the line training, but also the CRM, SEP, Aviation medicine etc.

Let me tell you what it DOESN't mean. Astraeus will employ on a full time basis, it's full First Officer Requirements to cover our flying program for this winter, and on a paying contract basis to cover our Summer peak. So individuals undertaking the full conversion/training course will NOT be saving Astraeus money. We will, as an airline, have the cost of increasing our training establishment to cope with the additional line training requirements. Furthermore, where these individuals operate as a full crew member, they will be paid the duty pay that is due for that flight. I will use some First Officers to assist with the Ground school training (indeed, one of the PPRuNe Cadets is already involved in training)

There are lots of people offering similar packages out there. Just have a look here for example.

We just feel that we can offer the full training package, for anyone who is interested in going down this road at a competitive price in an airline environment. Simple as that.

Let me just address some of the other comments:-



Sir Donald - Better get your facts right before chucking some of this stuff around. the CTC cadet scheme was a very successful scheme, but has died away because of the airlines unwillingness to pay for the type ratings. Furthermore, you still had to put your hand in your pocket for their MCC/JOT course, with no guarantee at the end. I know in Oz there is zero chance of a job right now, so wish you well in your aspirations.



Tailscrape - The "tests" include a full blown simulator assessment. Want to check on the cost of Simulator and Instructors at the moment? The reason for this is to ensure that there is some raw ability to fly, rather than a raw ability to pay. We want to ensure that people are capable of getting through the course successfully. We feel it more honest to tell people up front that they would be wasting their money for a conversion course that they might not be able to pass successfully. If they are confident enough that they have the ability, then it forms a downpayment on their conversion course.

Sally Cinnamon The going rate for a 737 type rating ranges from 18K to 23K depending on where you go, and there are various places to go. ( None of which include line training/ airline experience, and some of which cannot even do the base training)

flygirl10 Again, Ryanair offer NO guarantees of a job at the end of their conversion , and you are paying them a chunk of money for NOTHING ( their "arrangement fee" )

kabz I'm afraid the right or wrong of paying for your own training is a redundant discussion, until such time as demand completely outstrips supply. When last I looked, there were in excess of 900 Frozen ATPL's out there looking for their first job. From where I sit in the industry as it stands now, I cannot see any UK airline offering jet cadet type schemes as they used to do previously, and I include BA in that statement. The costs ( and risks) are just too high. I would love to be proved wrong.

The discussion on type ratings now mirrors the discussion some years ago on the 509 vs Self improvers route.

If any of you want to e-mail me directly with your views or concerns feel free.

Now, off to bed.....night Kos ahead of me.

H

[CrashDive]

Firstly it is Bond Aviation Training which have the 'Type Rated Training Organisation' (TRTO) approval – not Astraeus – please see my response to an earlier thread ( which somewhat compliments this one ).

The fact is that, if you do your type rating with Bond Aviation Training ( and assuming you pass – which you should do, because you were put through a rigorous pre-course selection process for that very purpose ) you are then free to proffer your skills and new found rating to anybody that will employ you, e.g. to EasyJet, or RyanAir, or maybe even to Astraeus, etc... – assuming, of course, that they’re recruiting.

Further assuming that an airline then happens to employ you, and being that you are already a type-rated pilot, there’s then no need ( or excuse ) for you to be joining them on a reduced salary for X number of years.
That said, should the airline try to sting you for a salary reduction, and some will, e.g. “As we’re now having to line-train you, we’ve got increased costs, and so if you want this job you’ll have to accept that you’ll be on a reduced salary for X number of years”, you can circumvent this by having completed optional line-training element which Bond Aviation are now offering.

Actually, if you do the maths, you will see that the salary reductions that the airlines impose - due to reasons of ‘training & experience’ - add up to be significantly more than the amount of money that Bond Aviation charge for getting you through the said same hoops purported as the reasons for impositions of salary reductions by the airlines.

As such the Bond line-training package option would seem to provide some useful upsides:

A). It reduces the risks to the airline of employing a dud, so making you a much more attractive employment proposition to them - hence you're much more likely to get the job.

B). Reduces the likelihood of you suffering any punitive salary reductions when you do join an airline – i.e. you should be joining them on the full wack salary.

And why is this so ?

It's because you'd be joining them as a type-rated qualified airline pilot, and better yet you have real airline operational experience under your belt !

Still don’t believe me ?

Imagine that you are an airlines Operations Director ( e.g. like John Mahon / hamrah, above ) and that you need to employ some pilots for you B737 aircraft. So you grab 3 CV's from the pile ( of hundreds ) and they are as follows:

1). Blah blah blah ( they were born, have a name, etc )…. (f)ATPL / 500 hours TT / PA23 Type Rating / 50.25 ME.

2). Blah blah blah ( they were born, have a name, etc )…. (f)ATPL / 500 hours TT / B737 Type-Rating / 51.25 ME / 1 hour B737 base training.

3). Blah blah blah ( they were born, have a name, etc )…. (f)ATPL / 500 hours TT / B737 Type-Rating / 150 ME / 101 hours B737 airline operations to Europe / Africa / CIS / North Atlantic – airline references available.

So who are you going to pick then - it’s hardly rocket science, is it ?!

Of course this is all academic if you can't afford to stump-up the money to do the courses - but I don't have the answer to that one, except to say that supply & demand will be the forces which influence the budgets which airlines have to provide training.

[scroggs]

Unfortunately, wishing that the industry would pay for all training with little or no contribution from the wannabe is a waste of time. Pigs flying in a pink sky are more likely! Until such time as the industry recovers to the mad expansion of 1998-2000 (and I think we're unlikely to see anything like that for many years), it will remain a buyers' market. If you don't match up to the best out there, you won't get employed.

I personally don't approve of self-funded type ratings, but the arguments for doing them are ever-more persuasive in today's climate. Astraeus/Bond's offering is considerably better than the majority, and the line training element is vital if you're going to go down this route. However, I wouldn't expect a potential employer to accept a graduate of this scheme with no further training. There will have to be an period of company orientation and route familiarisation; in Virgin that's normally 10-14 long-haul sectors, no matter what your previous experience. Incidentally, we still pay for all our pilots' type ratings - but you need 3000-odd hours of commercial or military experience to get in!

Scroggs

[no sponsor]

Personally, I find it quite appealing. Of the threads stating buying or not buying a type rating, most of the pessimists state that the 6 landings required for the sign-off is insignificant and pointless in adding value to your CV. This offers 100 hrs flying the line; now that's got to put your CV higher in the pile in the future, and allow you to make some good contacts.

Personally, I'd prefer to spend this money from the savings I will have made doing the modular route (compared to the integrated).