The African Dude

djfingerscrossed is correct. eJ has said that they have been very happy with the CTC cadets and expect to offer positions eventually. It's just a reflection of the market situation at the moment, unfortunately. The initial 6 months with eJ is technically part of the Wings course; it just so happens that in the past, all cadets have stayed on with their line experience airline on a permanent basis.

Farrell

My point exactly.

flightless_bird

My understanding about the major difference between the Wings and the iCP scheme is that the Wings scheme includes the MCC and JOC and that CTC will try to place you with one of their partner airlines and that the iCP course only takes you to getting your CPL/IR. (I'm not going to debate whether or not CTC can currently place cadets in this climate, that's another topic for discussion.) And obviously you are free to apply for the CTC ATP scheme after you have finished the iCP course but that is another process with additional costs as far as I remember.

I'd imagine CAA licensing fees are the fees you pay for your licence issue. I'd start by looking on the CAA website to find out how much they are. Their website is a nightmare to find anything on though. The best way I have found is to click on 'Shortcut Web Addresses' and then find what you're looking for on the page which displays. In this case you're probably after Flight Crew Licensing - Charges in which case try this:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fc...es_prof_05.pdf

With regards to the CityJet wings scheme, from what I have heard the base salary is low but the flight allowances bring it up substantially to a level comparable with cadet pilot salaries paid by other airlines.

jaimz1982

Hi,

I'm due out on the CP 68, but still awaiting the funds from the HSBC legal dept. I was on the CP67, but missed that one.

Does anyone out there have any info on the groundschool, can anyone enlighten me whether it's self study / classroom, etc. I've heard it's Bristol, has anyone started doing the EASA sylabus? has it started yet? Does it even exist? I've been looking over some old Oxford Manuals so any advice is appreciated.

Can't wait to get out there and meet everyone,

Jim

one post only!

EZY are now saying that the cadets laid off may not get priority over new non-type rated cadets doing the 6 month line training with CTC when recruitment re-starts. This means you could have a situation where you get 6 months experience and are then sent back to CTC to find another job while your mate 6 months behind you takes your place for his experience! Bit of a c*nts trick if you ask me!!!!

Oh for a crystal ball to predict when to start training to come out just at the right point when it picks up again!!!

Have a good think about finances though if you are starting or in the system now, you may find a few tight months coming up. Fore warned is fore armed and all that....

G-BFUN

Hey Everyone
Forgive my ignorance if this has already been mentioned but had a quick look and couldn't find anything.
I always considered CTC Wings to be different than other integrated courses as they got you to that employment stage much quicker.
My question is... Is CTC Wings any different now to any other integrated course, eg. Oxford/ Jerez?

If these people are not getting empolyed, do CTC renew their IRs as they are "sponsored" cadets or do they just vanish from the hold pool after 6 months.

If you are in the hold pool after finishing a course with CTC can you find your own job with a small air-taxi company or will that be against the T+Cs of contract and they have to place you with an airline?

Just wondering if anyone here knew the answers.

flightless_bird

Assuming that your CP is an integrated (as opposed to modular) CP then you will do classroom-based study with self-study on top of it. You will start with study to sit the NZ PPL exams (which will allow you to fly in NZ) and then after that do the UK ATPL exam study. (There are a couple of CPs that are in NZ now were changed from integrated to modular for various reasons and their study is solely self-study - although they can go to the classroom sessions if they so desire.)

Unless something drastic changes then it will be the Bristol Ground School course that you will be following. It is a good course and the instructors at Bristol for the brush up course are particularly good.

The EASA syllabus kicks in from about October so since your exams will be in 2009 you will almost definitely be studying the new syllabus (which I've heard is supposed to be harder).

PAJ

G-BFUN, The CTC course is similar to the Oxford/Jerez courses in that they will train you from ab-initio with the focus of training to get you into the right hand seat of a jet. How the syllabus is broken down will be different on each course, but you have to do the same skills tests and theory exams. Particular to CTC, they expand the multi syllabus far beyond the JAR-FCL minimum requirements (I have finished with about 65 hrs MEP time, with a further 50ish hours in FNTP II sims).

I belive both Oxford and Jerez, like CTC, include the JOC and MCC at the end of the course. This is the point where CTC becomes highly unique. CTC's partner airlines then take the cadets through type rating, base training and line training so you effectively finish the course with your CPL/IR with ATPL theory and MCC, but you also have a type rating and potentially 500 hours on type. Traditionally, all cadets have been fully employed by their partner airline at the end of the line training phase, but EZ haven't offered jobs to the most recent graduates unfortunately. Hopefully this is just a timing thing and not a trend, and the guys get something sorted soon.

So that's the main difference. Cost-wise, I think it works out cheaper at CTC (although I know some of the costs have risen lately). When I started, the bond was £60k (which you were able to get fully unsecured), Foudation course was about £4500 and then other costs such as insurance were maybe another £1300. That includes accommodation throughout the course (although living costs are on top of this) and use of CTC vehicles in NZ. Then once doing your type rating and line training with an airline, CTC pay you £1000 per month, maybe £6500 in total which is probably just about tax-free. If you deduct this from your costs, you are basically just paying £60k for your training. I can't give any really accurate figures, but I believe OAA's costs to be about £68,000. Then you have accommodation costs to consider whilst doing the UK phases which I seem to remember being something around the £5000 mark, but again, I am not certain. You don't have the type rating with this obviously, so if you have to fork out for one to get a job, you will potentially end up spending £30,000 more. CTC is a fantastic way into the RHS relatively quickly, but the bouyant market conditions are gone which will make things interesting for everyone. Hope that helps.

Gar

Oh dear, it's been 6 months since CTC said they would re-interview me in 6 months, so I thought I had better get back into the swing of things. Not looking good for me being about £61k short of £60k.

I'm actually just curious as to what the re-interview process is: do CTC contact you or do you have to get in touch with them? Muchos gracias

Gav28

Normally they will call/email you, sounds like things have changed a bit in the last few months since i got a reapplication call.

Day_Dreamer

With the loss of the unsecured HSBC loan.
Total lack of permanent recruitment from the CTC schemes.
An uncertain future, at least for the next 12 months.
Is this the end of the CTC as we have seen it over the years.
They have got rich over the years by training cadets who earn a pitance in their first six months after training (£1000 per month plus flight pay) while the cadets have paid at least that for their JOC course etc.

The only benefits from CTC were their track record in job placement, and the unsecured loan.
Both now either at an end or in question.
When the upturn arrives there will be enough qualified pilots out there to fill the available jobs, so will the CTC cadets be of value to those hiring, I doubt that the accountants who run the airlines will see them in such a favourable light, as cheap labour.
CTC courses will stagnate along with the other training schools, as funding becomes more difficult to obtain.
And what value is CTC without their job placement after training ?

For those of you who have failed CTC selection, look elsewhere as there are better options and the integrated course providers are seeking links with partner airlines in the same way that CTC has over the years.
Selection is not perfect, and is more often flawed with the percieved ideas of the schools as to what is required.
I have known many who have failed in some aspect and who have then taken different routes to their fATPL, they have become useful crew members and later Captains.

Don't be sucked in by the CTC hype, there is no guarantee that they will do any better in the future than the other established training schools.
And their product which was once one of the highest in the industry when the numbers were small, is now no different to the average of the other schools.

CTC are your Wings about to be clipped

Polorutz

Daydreamer, If I had to start a career right now as an airline pilot, and I chose an integrated school, I'd still choose CTC, at the end of your training you have the support of the school until the end, it does not matter whether 6 months or 1 year from graduation has passed, they will still support you and place you when the positions become available, the loans not being unsecured anymore is a factor that has more to do with the current market than with CTC itself.

The product is still there, granted when the upturn commences there will be some more experienced pilots and CTC will not have those first places, but after that, when the airlines start looking for FO's and they get their pick, those 6 months on low pay will still sound better than any cadet from other schools so there will still be an advantage for them.

Also CTC might come up with more partnerships, maybe outside europe where the economic climate is still good, they are doing all they can.

I'd look at it the other way around, to anyone wanting to join CTC this is by far the best moment to do it, you might have some trouble securing the financial side but you'll get that in any school, if you can get in, after your training is done in 2 years chances are those same relationships that made CTC what it is will still be there, maybe even some new ones...

You have to be in the game to win it, there's no point on watching on the sidelines, I am in CTC and personally going to come out with a fATPL and 200 odd hours, a lot of debt and not much else at the moment, but at least I know that there are people behind me that are trying their best to get me to the right hand seat, I have the same prospects as anyone from any other integrated school, the way I see it, if I came out of another school I'd still have to come up from the bottom, maybe instruct, then some years later get into the jets after many battles and a turboprop stint, CTC was the easy route and it has now become a bit harder, so what?? Im' pretty sure we'll all get there, this year, next year, maybe 2 years, I could still instruct and wait until CTC places me in the future, whenever that might be.

Day_Dreamer

There is NO guarantee that CTC will be able to place its students now or in the future and as for their support well, they can only give that support if there are positions to fill.
Will they renew your IR when it expires, give you time and retraining to keep up your skill levels ?
The OAA APP course offers all this as part of their skills net scheme, and they are now part of GECAT who have renamed themselves Oxford Aviation Academy.
FTE are linking with a couple of major companies and will soon offer the same as CTC to their Cadets.

The CTC Hype has been swallowed by all for several years while the industry was on the up post 9/11, now they have less to offer a prospective student.
Their holding pool will be overflowing soon and they cannot and financially will not be able to support everyone in it.
Also what about the Easyjet cadets who are coming back into the pool after their 6 months with Easy, qualified some experience and jobless.
Will CTC renew their LPC and OPC a year down the line ?
And there could be more 6 months from now !!

Cling to the hope that the upturn will be just around the corner, but will CTC place their more current students before those long term swimmers ? Probably providing there are places to fill !!
The SSTR is well established and CTC will find it hard to compete with this market, and must adapt quickly or remain behind the Integrated schools who are already far advanced in their planning for the long term.

For those in CTC training and holding pools, the bottom line is still profit not as they would make you believe the Cadet.
The moral of this post is Don't live in hope that CTC will come through for you, get proactive and seek that job yourself.
Dont expect that the first position will be in a nice comfortable jet !!! ANY Job is better than NONE.

As far as recruiting is concerned I would rather take an XL unemployed pilot especially those who can through OAA recently than a CTC cadet.
But I am not a recruitment manager yet.

hollingworthp

OAA have not provided IR renewal as part of the skills net for some time - they now have an extended repayment plan for failure up to an including CPL (through lack of skill rather than application).

HERE is a post on the OAA forums detailing the changes to skills net

PAJ

I'm not sure this is printed anywhere but I do belive that CTC will sort out IR renewal when doing your type rating. Cadets are responsible for keeping themselves current otherwise though.

Tommy_uk

I cant find any information on the website regarding the final training in the UK? Is accommodation also provided at this stage at no extra cost?

Day_Dreamer

Thanks for the info.
This strengthens my case against CTC, if OAA with their resources can no longer support skills renewal then will CTC be able to cover all their cadets who are swimming or about to finish ? probably not as I have said before the bottom line is what matters to them the most.

Allocate_on_Arrival

CTC will renew your IR if you become uncurrent in the pool. They have also provided some SIM refreshers for those in the hold for more than 6 months.

Don't get why you're so negative about CTC Day Dreamer, when you clearly don't know the full story. Has CTC left a bitter taste in your mouth?

Why try and put off potiential pilots with scare tatics. For all you (I and everyone else) know the airline industry could be booming in 1/2years time. No one can know or even make a sensible guess.

Plus, its not all doom and gloom like you suggest, recruitment is occuring and EJ haven't 'layed off' pilots. See BALPA website for full story. Plus even though they weren't contractually bound to do so, CTC have done everything possible to support them and continue to do so. They don't just forget about you just because your in the hold or have been placed. That's the difference, they actually care. Its good for them, their cadets and most importantly, their partner airlines.

Factual info only please Speculation is for fools (and SLF)

P.S. As it has been said so many times before, its not a definate job. However 100% of cadets have been placed (other than those is hold pool... durr )

SA242

Allocate on Arrival, thank you for a sensible post! Day Dreamer, you clearly don't know the entire story of what is going on in CTC or in OAA for that matter. The entire industry is what it is and no training provider has escaped unscathed. No point just posting for the sake of scaring potential pilots looking for info without knowing anything yourself.

Allocate_on_Arrival

S'alright, its nice to inject a bit of reality once in a while!