The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2.
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I am due to resit Phase 4 in November/December but I'm starting to wonder if theres any point. If I can't get an unsecured loan there is no way I can finance the training. I wonder if it might be possible to defer starting the course if you get through Phase 4 in the hope that financing become available in the future? Has anyone asked them about this? I would have thought that if you're good enough to get through the application phases they might be ok about keeping you on file until you can afford to fund it; especially since its not a lack of commitment thats causing the problem!
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It's probably pertinent to remind people that CTC is far from the only way into the RHS. Most pilots out there are not CTC. What about all the guys who took one of the various longer ways round and did all their hour building etc etc, turboprops, then jets? Sure it takes longer, but it's probably more affordable and certainly shields you from risk in a way that simply does not exist for CTC cadets, or anyone stumping up debt capital to an FTO.
As for "most medics" declaring bankruptcy, I'd like to see the proof of that from a reputable source. That sounds like a ridiculous and irresponsible statement if ever I heard one. The ramifications of an individual declaring bankruptcy are very far reaching, and "being in a stable relationship" is not some get out clause. If you're identifiably financially linked to other parties, your bankruptcy will drag down the collective credit rating. Plus, there might be employers out there who may rule out a person who is bankrupt on the grounds that they were financially irresponsible. Why would a bank or financial service employ someone in that position? That's a lot of jobs in the UK.
In other news, latest updates on placements/jobs right now is awful. Suffice to say it is what one would expect given the economic climate. Put on your wetsuit and snorkel, the water is cold.
Edit: The whole grad scheme pay thing - the average is a skewed figure, most grads do not earn the upper end of the scale, having a degree is not a guarantee of minimum income, more grads = more grad job competition = lower T&Cs, most grad jobs do not come with a golden handshake etc etc. djfingerscrossed may be in that percentile who can/have go there, but most people are not. The reality of the debt is that it is not feasible to be earning the wages of up to about a 25 year-old (perhaps more) and expect to have any meaningful amount of money left after the loan. Working 9 - 8 to have literally nothing is not possible and will destroy one's soul in weeks. Even having say 300 quid in your pocket afterwards allows you to errr... pay for petrol to get to work and back. Geee, those numbers just get worse, don't they? For all the people here without established work records and skills, if they don't get bailed out by M&D and have to swim for 18months, I would imagine they'd be fcuked.
Likely that HSBC would extend the repayment periods to stave off multiple bankruptcies.
From someone who is now in this situation and too deep to get out, I would advise people now considering to pause for a very, very big thought. There are lots and lots of other things you can do, and ways you can do it.
As for "no modular guys fly for big airlines" I don't think that's totally true either. I suspect it's much more about the way you go about getting your training and building proven skills. If "Big Airlines" just means BA, well golly they aren't the only airline in the world last time I checked.
As for "most medics" declaring bankruptcy, I'd like to see the proof of that from a reputable source. That sounds like a ridiculous and irresponsible statement if ever I heard one. The ramifications of an individual declaring bankruptcy are very far reaching, and "being in a stable relationship" is not some get out clause. If you're identifiably financially linked to other parties, your bankruptcy will drag down the collective credit rating. Plus, there might be employers out there who may rule out a person who is bankrupt on the grounds that they were financially irresponsible. Why would a bank or financial service employ someone in that position? That's a lot of jobs in the UK.
In other news, latest updates on placements/jobs right now is awful. Suffice to say it is what one would expect given the economic climate. Put on your wetsuit and snorkel, the water is cold.
Edit: The whole grad scheme pay thing - the average is a skewed figure, most grads do not earn the upper end of the scale, having a degree is not a guarantee of minimum income, more grads = more grad job competition = lower T&Cs, most grad jobs do not come with a golden handshake etc etc. djfingerscrossed may be in that percentile who can/have go there, but most people are not. The reality of the debt is that it is not feasible to be earning the wages of up to about a 25 year-old (perhaps more) and expect to have any meaningful amount of money left after the loan. Working 9 - 8 to have literally nothing is not possible and will destroy one's soul in weeks. Even having say 300 quid in your pocket afterwards allows you to errr... pay for petrol to get to work and back. Geee, those numbers just get worse, don't they? For all the people here without established work records and skills, if they don't get bailed out by M&D and have to swim for 18months, I would imagine they'd be fcuked.
Likely that HSBC would extend the repayment periods to stave off multiple bankruptcies.
From someone who is now in this situation and too deep to get out, I would advise people now considering to pause for a very, very big thought. There are lots and lots of other things you can do, and ways you can do it.
As for "no modular guys fly for big airlines" I don't think that's totally true either. I suspect it's much more about the way you go about getting your training and building proven skills. If "Big Airlines" just means BA, well golly they aren't the only airline in the world last time I checked.
Last edited by FeetUpHeadDown; 20th Sep 2008 at 10:05.
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djfingerscrossed sounds more like djwirescrossed.
A change in rate of declared bankruptcies is not an indicator of the proportion of the total population of a group going bankrupt. Without showing the figures, your claim that "most medics" are going bankrupt still means nothing and appears unfounded. To post it like it's ok to do it coz all doctors are doing it is dumb. Don't give people bad ideas. Bankruptcy might even prevent a future captaincy, but that's an unverified rumour from the farm.
From Recruiter.co.uk, 2007:
So djfingerscrossed’s figures ("Higher level grad schemes will be around circa 26k plus (usually with golden hand shakes) so you can make those payments (just) and have a few quid.") is wildly off the mark for maybe 95% of grads. According to last year's numbers, you'd have to be in oil to get near what he/she is talking about. Or maybe banking. Hmmm... banking. Did I hear something in the news about banking, recently?
£20,800 p.a. contracted out of S2P and not paying anything to a corporate pension scheme gives approx £1361 per month take home, based on Financial Tools - Prudential UK figures. If you just came out of college at 19, you're even worse off as you’ve got much less earning power.
And remember the weakness of average figures. Basically, on these numbers a recent graduate cannot service the debt because they would not have enough money for food, clothing and transport, never mind anything that makes life better than being a bonded slave. Which you essentially are, on these terms, and that's not taking into account uni debts. This would mean a re-negotiation with HSBC to lower the repayments, thereby extending the life of the loan and the overall cost of it. Plus whatever pressure is coming from uni debts, which come straight from wages under the new system, right? Then there's the IVA option, with all of the stigmas and issues. And then there's bankruptcy. I'd be interested to know how bankruptcy can be "made to work" for the individual over a period of 10 years from the date of declaring. Please educate me and I'll get cracking with the paperwork and book that court date online.
How can university entrance figures ballooning in the last 15 years do anything other than effectively restrict the proportions taking the top tier places? Aiming to get in means nothing until you're there, and if there's more competition then it's stupid to financially forecast in the most optimistic manner.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
With Zoom, XL and others in Europe going to the wall, there's a glut of unemployed experience pilots in the market. They all speak English. Most of us don't speak anything but. There's another big thread or two about this particular topic and it rings true for all FTOs and their cadets.
As for supportive messages, what about reality? "Support" is not synonymous with "shot-from-the-hip bull****". The reality is this: it's now a terrible time to be trying to start an airline career within the limited timeframe presented by the repayment dates of your massive loan because the jobs aren't there at the end right now and if the economic cycle takes 2 - 5 years to recover, that might be too long for you to ride out. There's loads of CTC Wings cadets in the pool right now and the longest swimmers have been there for I'd estimate 6 months+. If you can still get the unsecured finance, recent posts here should be the sobering message that CTC won't give you in the recruitment brochure.
Readers of this thread should be aware, and it is pretty obvious, that few current/past cadets post on here, and the factual information they can/do share is limited for a number of reasons. IMO cadets who have inside knowledge who choose to post therefore have a responsibility not to talk cavalier bollocks to people who may be rather impressionable for one reason or another, nor should they underplay aspects of what is a massively risky undertaking regardless of the economic climate in which it is being undertaken.
BA do take modular people. They've been taking modular people from CTC all along. Every CTC applicant to BA to date has been modular. Albeit CTC modular are the only modular ones they take, apparently. But as has been said, BA is not the be all and end all of commercial flying in UK/Europe, just as £26,000 (with handshakes and cock knocks) grad jobs are not the be all and end all of grad jobs.
Applicants: If time is on your side consider all options and extend your time window. Avoid fixation on one thing, coz it's probably going to lead you down the wrong path. If time is not on your side, make sure you can afford the risks.
Why is no one talking about organising a run on HSBC to bring about its unrecoverable demise, thereby causing all debts owed to it to be written off? Fight Club, anyone? Now there's a topic worth discussing. Not that I am advocating errr... Well, then again...
JB5000 - CTC was never a guaranteed job.
A change in rate of declared bankruptcies is not an indicator of the proportion of the total population of a group going bankrupt. Without showing the figures, your claim that "most medics" are going bankrupt still means nothing and appears unfounded. To post it like it's ok to do it coz all doctors are doing it is dumb. Don't give people bad ideas. Bankruptcy might even prevent a future captaincy, but that's an unverified rumour from the farm.
From Recruiter.co.uk, 2007:
This year’s crop of university leavers are earning an average starting salary of around £20,800, according to the latest First Rung: Graduate Pay Trends report from management consultancy Hay Group. The study, based on information from public and private sector employers throughout the UK, places the average graduate starting salary at £20,812.
It found that despite a rise of 2.5% since 2006, wage inflation for university leavers continues to lag behind national levels of 3.5% over the last year, the report finds.
The Hay Group research reveals that for the second year running, starter salaries in the public sector are racing ahead of those offered in the private sector. The average salary for a graduate joining the civil service in 2007 will be £21,885 – 3.1% above the average private sector wage of £21,223. Only those seeking work this year in the lucrative oil industry can expect to earn a higher average starting salary, with packages pitched at over £25,227.
Juan Novoa, reward analyst at Hay Group and author of the report, says: “Despite the increasing number of graduates in the job market, companies are still struggling to recruit graduates with the right mix of skills and competencies. Rather than attracting candidates with high salaries, many companies are now marketing a total package, based on bonuses, benefits and comprehensive training programmes to ensure their graduate intake develops the right skills to be fit for the future.”
Graduates working in London continue to command the highest starting salaries at £24,333, up 7% since last year. The South East is also a relatively lucrative region for graduates, boasting an average starting salary of £21,022.
Scotland, however, has fallen significantly down the graduate pay ladder since 2006. The region now comes in at a poor ninth in the graduate pay table for this year, with typical starting salaries pitched at 2.2% below the national average at £20,354.
It found that despite a rise of 2.5% since 2006, wage inflation for university leavers continues to lag behind national levels of 3.5% over the last year, the report finds.
The Hay Group research reveals that for the second year running, starter salaries in the public sector are racing ahead of those offered in the private sector. The average salary for a graduate joining the civil service in 2007 will be £21,885 – 3.1% above the average private sector wage of £21,223. Only those seeking work this year in the lucrative oil industry can expect to earn a higher average starting salary, with packages pitched at over £25,227.
Juan Novoa, reward analyst at Hay Group and author of the report, says: “Despite the increasing number of graduates in the job market, companies are still struggling to recruit graduates with the right mix of skills and competencies. Rather than attracting candidates with high salaries, many companies are now marketing a total package, based on bonuses, benefits and comprehensive training programmes to ensure their graduate intake develops the right skills to be fit for the future.”
Graduates working in London continue to command the highest starting salaries at £24,333, up 7% since last year. The South East is also a relatively lucrative region for graduates, boasting an average starting salary of £21,022.
Scotland, however, has fallen significantly down the graduate pay ladder since 2006. The region now comes in at a poor ninth in the graduate pay table for this year, with typical starting salaries pitched at 2.2% below the national average at £20,354.
£20,800 p.a. contracted out of S2P and not paying anything to a corporate pension scheme gives approx £1361 per month take home, based on Financial Tools - Prudential UK figures. If you just came out of college at 19, you're even worse off as you’ve got much less earning power.
And remember the weakness of average figures. Basically, on these numbers a recent graduate cannot service the debt because they would not have enough money for food, clothing and transport, never mind anything that makes life better than being a bonded slave. Which you essentially are, on these terms, and that's not taking into account uni debts. This would mean a re-negotiation with HSBC to lower the repayments, thereby extending the life of the loan and the overall cost of it. Plus whatever pressure is coming from uni debts, which come straight from wages under the new system, right? Then there's the IVA option, with all of the stigmas and issues. And then there's bankruptcy. I'd be interested to know how bankruptcy can be "made to work" for the individual over a period of 10 years from the date of declaring. Please educate me and I'll get cracking with the paperwork and book that court date online.
How can university entrance figures ballooning in the last 15 years do anything other than effectively restrict the proportions taking the top tier places? Aiming to get in means nothing until you're there, and if there's more competition then it's stupid to financially forecast in the most optimistic manner.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
With Zoom, XL and others in Europe going to the wall, there's a glut of unemployed experience pilots in the market. They all speak English. Most of us don't speak anything but. There's another big thread or two about this particular topic and it rings true for all FTOs and their cadets.
As for supportive messages, what about reality? "Support" is not synonymous with "shot-from-the-hip bull****". The reality is this: it's now a terrible time to be trying to start an airline career within the limited timeframe presented by the repayment dates of your massive loan because the jobs aren't there at the end right now and if the economic cycle takes 2 - 5 years to recover, that might be too long for you to ride out. There's loads of CTC Wings cadets in the pool right now and the longest swimmers have been there for I'd estimate 6 months+. If you can still get the unsecured finance, recent posts here should be the sobering message that CTC won't give you in the recruitment brochure.
Readers of this thread should be aware, and it is pretty obvious, that few current/past cadets post on here, and the factual information they can/do share is limited for a number of reasons. IMO cadets who have inside knowledge who choose to post therefore have a responsibility not to talk cavalier bollocks to people who may be rather impressionable for one reason or another, nor should they underplay aspects of what is a massively risky undertaking regardless of the economic climate in which it is being undertaken.
BA do take modular people. They've been taking modular people from CTC all along. Every CTC applicant to BA to date has been modular. Albeit CTC modular are the only modular ones they take, apparently. But as has been said, BA is not the be all and end all of commercial flying in UK/Europe, just as £26,000 (with handshakes and cock knocks) grad jobs are not the be all and end all of grad jobs.
Applicants: If time is on your side consider all options and extend your time window. Avoid fixation on one thing, coz it's probably going to lead you down the wrong path. If time is not on your side, make sure you can afford the risks.
Why is no one talking about organising a run on HSBC to bring about its unrecoverable demise, thereby causing all debts owed to it to be written off? Fight Club, anyone? Now there's a topic worth discussing. Not that I am advocating errr... Well, then again...
JB5000 - CTC was never a guaranteed job.
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MajorYaw - I meant that there used to be the perception that taking the CTC wings cadets course meant a guaranteed job. After all, 100% of cadets have been employed to date. This was leading people into (I agree, incorrectly) assuming that their risk on the £60k+ bond was minimal.
I concede that I too was one of the many that thought my risk was minimal.
I am now sitting on £100k worth of debt and no job, tossed aside at the whim of an airline looking to save a few quid.
The loan repayments are going to be approximately £1,100 a month, with interest accruing at the rate of £20 a day. There is no job I could walk straight into that could pay that amount, and I have a solid degree and a years experience in the city.
Yes djfingerscrossed you may be able to have a 'back up plan' should your employment be delayed. However not all grad schemes recruit all year round, and as soon as you start you have committed yourself to abandoning your flying career. No employer is going to let you get paid £30k+ for several months then you swan off back to a type rating, or remployment with an airline. The general feeling I have from searching for employment is that the average graduate salary is £24,000 at best. That is nowhere near enough to repay any kind of 'bond'.
To sum up:
- Not a guaranteed job by a long shot, especially in todays economic climate.
- If you are not employed by an airline the odds of being able to repay the loan at the agreed rate is minimal. Having a degree or even experience is nowhere near enough of a backup plan. Having an ACA or being a fully qualified lawyer might just be enough. I was going to put in investment banker too, but events in recent days probably indicate otherwise.
- The airlines clearly feel no obligation or moral commitment to keeping cadets, even when marketing on their own website offers a 'sponsorship' scheme.
Be very very very wary guys and girls. The financial position I am in now is bloody terrifying, enough to keep me awake at night and occupy my thoughts for most of the day.
Train slowly, keep out of debt. You might even enjoy some of the flying along the way!
I concede that I too was one of the many that thought my risk was minimal.
I am now sitting on £100k worth of debt and no job, tossed aside at the whim of an airline looking to save a few quid.
The loan repayments are going to be approximately £1,100 a month, with interest accruing at the rate of £20 a day. There is no job I could walk straight into that could pay that amount, and I have a solid degree and a years experience in the city.
Yes djfingerscrossed you may be able to have a 'back up plan' should your employment be delayed. However not all grad schemes recruit all year round, and as soon as you start you have committed yourself to abandoning your flying career. No employer is going to let you get paid £30k+ for several months then you swan off back to a type rating, or remployment with an airline. The general feeling I have from searching for employment is that the average graduate salary is £24,000 at best. That is nowhere near enough to repay any kind of 'bond'.
To sum up:
- Not a guaranteed job by a long shot, especially in todays economic climate.
- If you are not employed by an airline the odds of being able to repay the loan at the agreed rate is minimal. Having a degree or even experience is nowhere near enough of a backup plan. Having an ACA or being a fully qualified lawyer might just be enough. I was going to put in investment banker too, but events in recent days probably indicate otherwise.
- The airlines clearly feel no obligation or moral commitment to keeping cadets, even when marketing on their own website offers a 'sponsorship' scheme.
Be very very very wary guys and girls. The financial position I am in now is bloody terrifying, enough to keep me awake at night and occupy my thoughts for most of the day.
Train slowly, keep out of debt. You might even enjoy some of the flying along the way!
DJ Big Airways do take modular guys once you have some time on a JAR 25 aircraft. Saying you want to go to CTC because BA only recruit from there is rather simplistic and expensive way of looking at it. What happens if you don't get into BA? They are definitely not hiring at the moment and it could be a long time before they do again as the hold pool is being topped up at the moment!
Plenty of boys from the charter market and the loco's are now flying for BA.
Check your facts before posting!
Plenty of boys from the charter market and the loco's are now flying for BA.
Check your facts before posting!
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Jb5000 you can call me insane but i would pay an extra £50k to be in your situation! you have almost made your dream came true and this is the reason why people (me too) apply massively for the cadet "sponsored" scheme, understimating the risk of rising such a huge debt!
!!!good luck!!!
!!!good luck!!!
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Jb5000, how is the situation exactly? i mean what about the other 11 of your course? are they struggling to find a job?give me an ideaout the CTC comitment "to find you a job".
What does CTC say? do they reassure you or they do not care?.
What does CTC say? do they reassure you or they do not care?.
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rik2204,
It doesn't matter what CTC promise or guarantee you, at the end of the day airlines aren't recruiting. What happens when you finish your training and no airline wants you? How are you going to pay a 100k loan to the bank? The bank wont care if your unemployed, they jsut want their money back as promised. Failure to do so would damage your credit rating, meaning it would be impossible to purchase a house on a mortgage.
What happens if an airline that recruits you collapses? What happens if you get sacked?
As I said, you would need to be insane to borrow that amount of money right now.
It doesn't matter what CTC promise or guarantee you, at the end of the day airlines aren't recruiting. What happens when you finish your training and no airline wants you? How are you going to pay a 100k loan to the bank? The bank wont care if your unemployed, they jsut want their money back as promised. Failure to do so would damage your credit rating, meaning it would be impossible to purchase a house on a mortgage.
What happens if an airline that recruits you collapses? What happens if you get sacked?
As I said, you would need to be insane to borrow that amount of money right now.
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The big problem with this is that it isn't discussed at the right time. Two years ago when people were applying to CTC and other integrated FTOs would have been a great time to discuss the future (very difficult to do, granted) and present.
The near future seems a good time to start. Early 2009 on a two year course plus roughly 6 months of delays means you'll leave in around mid 2011...which I suspect (as do others) will be a darn sight prettier than the current situation.
Should you wait for mid 2009 and you'll finish the course at around the beginning of 2012...
Of course, this doesn't take into account the issue of finance with HSBC in the current situation.
Maybe it's just me that's missing something....
The near future seems a good time to start. Early 2009 on a two year course plus roughly 6 months of delays means you'll leave in around mid 2011...which I suspect (as do others) will be a darn sight prettier than the current situation.
Should you wait for mid 2009 and you'll finish the course at around the beginning of 2012...
Of course, this doesn't take into account the issue of finance with HSBC in the current situation.
Maybe it's just me that's missing something....
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...99
Good point. The industry will recover. Airlines recruit around sept-jan each year, so all you have to work out is which autumn to graduate into. I suspect 2011 would be ok.
Good point. The industry will recover. Airlines recruit around sept-jan each year, so all you have to work out is which autumn to graduate into. I suspect 2011 would be ok.
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Yep it's guys who train when the market is low that seem to come out the best. It takes balls though, especially if it's a secured loan. The overall problem with CTC is that they've piggybacked on the growth of Easyjet and now that has ground to a halt the game has changed. Only breaking into new markets will change things.
If I was one of the current holding pool cadets, I'd seriously consider going bankrupt if the debt is unsecured. Within one year the bankruptcy will be over and the debt millstone will be removed. Sure you'll not be able to get a mortgage for 6 years from declaring yourself bankrupt but 100k is a lot of debt to dump. By the end of the six years the market will have recovered, you'll have a flying job, cash in the bank and those fickle banks will be back for more.
If I was one of the current holding pool cadets, I'd seriously consider going bankrupt if the debt is unsecured. Within one year the bankruptcy will be over and the debt millstone will be removed. Sure you'll not be able to get a mortgage for 6 years from declaring yourself bankrupt but 100k is a lot of debt to dump. By the end of the six years the market will have recovered, you'll have a flying job, cash in the bank and those fickle banks will be back for more.
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easyJet is already breaking into new markets (Italy for example! Alitalia struggling to survive)and is well known that strong low cost airlines get stronger during economic slowdown! (read what did easyJet and Ryanair in 2001!!)
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Preduk,
CTC on their website clearly write "we will not garantee you a job", but their reputation mostly depend on how good they perform (bad news fly faster than a jet) and few cadets left in bankruptcy is a very big problem for them!
CTC on their website clearly write "we will not garantee you a job", but their reputation mostly depend on how good they perform (bad news fly faster than a jet) and few cadets left in bankruptcy is a very big problem for them!
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rik, you said it. If EZY is still growing why have they stopped taking CTC cadets on?? Could it be because they can fly for free for 6 months and then be replaced by the next fresh faced cadet? Or just replaced by a cheaper "product" from another provider? Or a bit of both!
JB is just trying to warn people before they make a big big BIG commitment. It looks like things are starting to change for CTC through no fault of their own. Be careful and weigh up all the options. If you think that in the same position (no income and £1100 a month loan payments) you could still afford to pay the loan, or just go bankrupt and start again, great. If not think about what you would do. Generate options!!! Fools rush in and all that.........
While times were good CTC was a close to a guaranteed job as you could get. For all intents and purposes it was. Things have changed though.
JB, I really hope this gets sorted out for you and the others involved. I hope CTC and BALPA look after you all.
JB is just trying to warn people before they make a big big BIG commitment. It looks like things are starting to change for CTC through no fault of their own. Be careful and weigh up all the options. If you think that in the same position (no income and £1100 a month loan payments) you could still afford to pay the loan, or just go bankrupt and start again, great. If not think about what you would do. Generate options!!! Fools rush in and all that.........
While times were good CTC was a close to a guaranteed job as you could get. For all intents and purposes it was. Things have changed though.
JB, I really hope this gets sorted out for you and the others involved. I hope CTC and BALPA look after you all.
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JB, I really hope this gets sorted out for you and the others involved. I hope CTC and BALPA look after you all.
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Can someone tell me the difference between CTC iCp and the wings scheme? Surely if they have lost the loan agreement these are exactly the same?
Also could someone please explain what the CAA licensing fees are, and how much they could equate to?
Finally what are peoples thoughts on the cityjet wings scheme? The salary does not sounds very promising at all, I could get substantially more by just sticking with engineering.
Thanks
Also could someone please explain what the CAA licensing fees are, and how much they could equate to?
Finally what are peoples thoughts on the cityjet wings scheme? The salary does not sounds very promising at all, I could get substantially more by just sticking with engineering.
Thanks