Pilot shortages, News Events, And What Are The Effects On Airline Jobs?
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Errrrrrrrr Merc I beg to differ
hypocrite [hip-uh-krit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.
Like I said I was at the stage of thinking paying was my only option (mistakenly), had I paid, then yes I'd be a hypocrite.
I didnt pay, so Im not a hypocrite...not even a little bit
hypocrite [hip-uh-krit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.
Like I said I was at the stage of thinking paying was my only option (mistakenly), had I paid, then yes I'd be a hypocrite.
I didnt pay, so Im not a hypocrite...not even a little bit
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Merc, lets not labour the point here, I know what your getting at, and on the face of it in a different circumstance i.e. a situation I was not involved in... I would probably make a similar assumption, however I was involved here...and I'm not embelishing the facts.
I made the SSTR comment because that was how "desperate" I felt, and I was considering all the options with all the potential outcomes.
The fact is, I decided not to pay for a rating for a couple of simple reasons.
1. IMHO it is exploitative and would have added to my debt burden
2. I already had a reasonably well paid flying job, so my desire to further myself could be advanced by my experience and ability, rather than have my employabilty based on an ability to accumulate debt.
So as I've said, I'm not a hypocrite...I'm probably as far from it as anyone could be regarding SSTR's
As for the lucky break, well we all need to be in right place at the right time.
finally, I stand by the numpty comment......I feel I'm entitled to that opinion
I made the SSTR comment because that was how "desperate" I felt, and I was considering all the options with all the potential outcomes.
The fact is, I decided not to pay for a rating for a couple of simple reasons.
1. IMHO it is exploitative and would have added to my debt burden
2. I already had a reasonably well paid flying job, so my desire to further myself could be advanced by my experience and ability, rather than have my employabilty based on an ability to accumulate debt.
So as I've said, I'm not a hypocrite...I'm probably as far from it as anyone could be regarding SSTR's
As for the lucky break, well we all need to be in right place at the right time.
finally, I stand by the numpty comment......I feel I'm entitled to that opinion
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If it was really true "a shortage of pilot"
why there are so much employed pilot?
May be the pilot is a kind of person
too lazy to accept a pilot job, it could be
a raison of this shortage !!!
(i am jocking of course)
A+
why there are so much employed pilot?
May be the pilot is a kind of person
too lazy to accept a pilot job, it could be
a raison of this shortage !!!
(i am jocking of course)
A+
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Im one of those CTC "numpties"! I was extremely fortunate to find myself in the RHS of a 757 with 220 hrs under my belt. I dont think i would have been able to say that had i not gone down the CTC route. Therefore, from my point of view, CTC were a God send.
Anyways, in my airline, in spite of a massive recruitment program over the summer months, we seem to be short of crews again. Many captains i have spoken to do indeed talk of a shortage of quality candidates to recruit for the airline. I guess my employer must be fairly happy with the abilities of myself and my CTC colleagues because they are sourcing more low hour guys from CTC for next summer.
Busz
Anyways, in my airline, in spite of a massive recruitment program over the summer months, we seem to be short of crews again. Many captains i have spoken to do indeed talk of a shortage of quality candidates to recruit for the airline. I guess my employer must be fairly happy with the abilities of myself and my CTC colleagues because they are sourcing more low hour guys from CTC for next summer.
Busz
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Nice one Busz, I bet your thoroughly enjoying the 757!
Out of interest, I wonder how long it has taken you out of line training to feel confident that you are contributing as an effective crew member?
CTC is certainly a successful business model, and it has helped many guys in your position achieve their dreams.
This is good news! however its worth noting that one of the key attractions of CTC candidates is that it doesn't cost the airline as much to get guys like you up to speed, essentially you fit the low cost/high benefit ratio business model
Well done one again, its good to hear more positive news
Out of interest, I wonder how long it has taken you out of line training to feel confident that you are contributing as an effective crew member?
CTC is certainly a successful business model, and it has helped many guys in your position achieve their dreams.
I guess my employer must be fairly happy with the abilities of myself and my CTC colleagues because they are sourcing more low hour guys from CTC for next summer
Well done one again, its good to hear more positive news
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We have always been taught, even when we were training on the mighty Katana, to take an airline operations view to flying the aircraft. Therefore the transition into flying the 75 as a part of a crew was something of a non event. I really did feel extremely well prepared for the environment in which im now working.
Busz
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busz - I'm sure you are a very competent pilot - hence the contentedness of your employer with your 'abilities'.
BUT, are you honestly suggesting that your employer's willingness to source more recruits from CTC is not in SOME part due to the financial benefits that such an arrangement brings to your employer??????????????????????????
BUT, are you honestly suggesting that your employer's willingness to source more recruits from CTC is not in SOME part due to the financial benefits that such an arrangement brings to your employer??????????????????????????
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Interesting debate - especially regarding the glut of "low hour" fATPL's that are on the market and not getting any bites. Ironicly, it seems like a fine line between what is deemed as "experienced" (ITFC1 quotes a good example) and what is not. Obviously 250hrs is not, but where does one draw the line?
I know of a friend of a friend who came over from Canada (where I am currently flying) with some 2000hrs+ consisting of Metro turbine time and Navajo twin time and he also found that many airlines were considering him too experienced for RHS FO positions. Its all a matter of perception I suppose, because that time here is certainly not in the "experienced" category (Try 3000+ hours)
I myself read this thread with great interest - currently sitting at around 1100 hours, a fair chunk on light twins (Navajo Chieftain) and am considering rolling the dice and coming back to the UK to convert my Canadian commercial licences. That said, I wouldn't be up and flying until early 2008 so who knows? I certainly don't want to have to start doing my own TR's (something that has been happening here for a bit, and is definitely not a good thing) when the conversion on its own is going to cost me £10K ++
I know of a friend of a friend who came over from Canada (where I am currently flying) with some 2000hrs+ consisting of Metro turbine time and Navajo twin time and he also found that many airlines were considering him too experienced for RHS FO positions. Its all a matter of perception I suppose, because that time here is certainly not in the "experienced" category (Try 3000+ hours)
I myself read this thread with great interest - currently sitting at around 1100 hours, a fair chunk on light twins (Navajo Chieftain) and am considering rolling the dice and coming back to the UK to convert my Canadian commercial licences. That said, I wouldn't be up and flying until early 2008 so who knows? I certainly don't want to have to start doing my own TR's (something that has been happening here for a bit, and is definitely not a good thing) when the conversion on its own is going to cost me £10K ++
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"Its all about the money, it's all about the dum dum da dum dum" so a song went I heard today driving to work....How true in this life eh what?
Yes very!
Airline recruitment is to do with how cheap the candidate is these days....
Nothing to do with abilities, the recent recruitment events have shown that.
Now, I'm not saying that the calibre of people going to CTC is low, far from it, but it does make one think that its a rather cheap option for the airline concerned.
I am very poor man, so cannot go to CTC, my moneys been spent and now I work in an office block locked up all day long....I will not be able to recover my debt for the next 15 years. No lending establishment will touch me with a barge pole for a TR, and I am frightened of instructing again...its too cut throat.
- Funny thing happened this morning though, I met one of my ex students on the Tram to work, he was really delighted to see me, and thanked me for all I taught him....- what a rewarding way to start the day...I really miss flying big style...
I wonder, when I will go back, and when will that be....
Yes very!
Airline recruitment is to do with how cheap the candidate is these days....
Nothing to do with abilities, the recent recruitment events have shown that.
Now, I'm not saying that the calibre of people going to CTC is low, far from it, but it does make one think that its a rather cheap option for the airline concerned.
I am very poor man, so cannot go to CTC, my moneys been spent and now I work in an office block locked up all day long....I will not be able to recover my debt for the next 15 years. No lending establishment will touch me with a barge pole for a TR, and I am frightened of instructing again...its too cut throat.
- Funny thing happened this morning though, I met one of my ex students on the Tram to work, he was really delighted to see me, and thanked me for all I taught him....- what a rewarding way to start the day...I really miss flying big style...
I wonder, when I will go back, and when will that be....
TightYorksherMan
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[QUOTE=wingbar;2897621]"Its all about the money, it's all about the dum dum da dum dum" so a song went I heard today driving to work....How true in this life eh what?[QUOTE]
Sounds like the 80's band Talk Talk to me
Sounds like the 80's band Talk Talk to me
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It never ceases to amaze me how bitter people come across on these boards when they get a good news story. I am sure that Busz would have loved to have been a C152 instructor clocking up 1500 of those hallowed single piston engine hours before jumping into the RHS of a TP or heaven forbid a big bad jet. But alas nope, he passed countless tests, fit a certain profile sought by his employers. Rather than burning holes in the sky at 1500ft navigating with a chart covered in fan lines and trying to find the ocassional tv mast in the drizzle he spent his time more valuably in a level D sim getting himself up to speed with flying profiles just like he does on the line today. Some of you guys need to see the wood for the trees and appreciate that aviation has moved. The looming MPL should be evidence enough for you. Well done Busz!
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It rarely fails to surprise me how dismissive some posters can be of other people's points of view and/or alternative routes to the sought after jet RHS! 
busz - I'm sure you are very happy - well done on getting where you want to be. You've acknowledged the point I was trying to make in a good-natured way - enough said!
busz - I'm sure you are very happy - well done on getting where you want to be. You've acknowledged the point I was trying to make in a good-natured way - enough said!
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Now, I'm not saying that the calibre of people going to CTC is low, far from it, but it does make one think that its a rather cheap option for the airline concerned.
Scroggs
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Scroggs is right the old self-improver route to the airlines is now almost dead and I can't see it being resurrected! It's a shame as I have seen good pilots come via this route as well as the 200 hour cadets.
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Years ago, the self-improver route was pretty much the only way unless you went through the BOAC/BA training schemes. In those days (up to the 1980s), companies took responsibility for all training, and the costs involved in bringing a pilot up to the required standards were relatively insignificant. There was no real problem getting rid of those not up to scratch, either...
Time has moved on. Costs, which are now enormous, are the overriding factor, followed closely by minimisation of risk. The old informal system of selection by the 'old boy network' (which did a pretty good job of weeding out the no-hopers) has long gone, and has been replaced by more formal arrangements. The fact that some pilots still achieve their dream by the traditional routes is an anomaly, though a welcome one for those who make it this way.
The likelihood is that, for airline flying at least, self-selection will be effectively outlawed over the next few years, and you will not be able to get a licence simply because you have enough money and time to keep plugging away until you get the right result! Opportunities will remain for those who take a more roundabout way of getting to the airlines, but the business of getting a professional licence wil be further tightened in order to eliminate those with money but insufficient talent.
Even if no legislation is passed to enforce this scenario, I suspect that, in time, the airlines will make it a de facto standard by refusing to employ people who have not undergone a pre-selected, time constrained course of training. Not necessarily 'integrated', but certainly at least 'structured modular' - or whatever replaces both. The MPL, as referred to in a post above, may well be part of that replacement.
Scroggs
Time has moved on. Costs, which are now enormous, are the overriding factor, followed closely by minimisation of risk. The old informal system of selection by the 'old boy network' (which did a pretty good job of weeding out the no-hopers) has long gone, and has been replaced by more formal arrangements. The fact that some pilots still achieve their dream by the traditional routes is an anomaly, though a welcome one for those who make it this way.
The likelihood is that, for airline flying at least, self-selection will be effectively outlawed over the next few years, and you will not be able to get a licence simply because you have enough money and time to keep plugging away until you get the right result! Opportunities will remain for those who take a more roundabout way of getting to the airlines, but the business of getting a professional licence wil be further tightened in order to eliminate those with money but insufficient talent.
Even if no legislation is passed to enforce this scenario, I suspect that, in time, the airlines will make it a de facto standard by refusing to employ people who have not undergone a pre-selected, time constrained course of training. Not necessarily 'integrated', but certainly at least 'structured modular' - or whatever replaces both. The MPL, as referred to in a post above, may well be part of that replacement.
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
But wouldn't a 1500hr SEP pilot be an instructor, does an instructor not operate to strict time constraints, have to make pivotal decisions, not to mention being under constant scrutiny by their employer? Mybe I'm naive 
How would you regard the GAPAN test in terms of qualative assemessment for self-sponsored modular chaps/chapesses.
I would far rather employ a CTC graduate with 200 hours to fly my jets than a 1500-hour self-selected, self-sponsored SEP pilot who has never undergone any form of qualitative selection procedure, has been under any time pressure or constraints throughout his training, and whose flying has never been under observation by people who have a financial interest in his competence.
How would you regard the GAPAN test in terms of qualative assemessment for self-sponsored modular chaps/chapesses.
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 10th Oct 2006 at 09:18.
My situation represents another angle on all this. A few years ago I took redundancy as a Jet Captain in the UK. Since then I have found other things to do with my life and can manage withour flying. However, I would actually like to fly again. Problem is . . . I have a young family. Any airline job I look at comprehensively trashes my family life. Part time flying would work fine but is simply not available. Also I am mainly heavy jet and am not prepared to bond myself to a small airline for a turboprop type rating.
In a nutshell, the job no longer stacks up. I suspect there are quite a few like me. A good buddy is retiring at fifty. He has scraped enough together to downsize his life and spend more time with family.
If easyJet or similar were to be more flexible in their working practices they could fill a few more seats I am sure. It won't happen and I for one, am going to leave my experience in my flight bag gathering dust on the carpet behind me.
In a nutshell, the job no longer stacks up. I suspect there are quite a few like me. A good buddy is retiring at fifty. He has scraped enough together to downsize his life and spend more time with family.
If easyJet or similar were to be more flexible in their working practices they could fill a few more seats I am sure. It won't happen and I for one, am going to leave my experience in my flight bag gathering dust on the carpet behind me.
The idea that airlines will force the ceasation of self sponsored Modular training depends on your definition of 'airline' to an extent.
It may well be the case that the large household brand airlines will only take people from Integrated courses, their own heavily bonded sponsorships or a CTC administered placement scheme.
However there are dozens of smaller operators out there who will continue to hire self sponsored Modular trained pilots. I'd be politely presenting myself at the door of perhaps Aer Arran, Eastern or Loganair. Or Southwest or Aurigny or a night freight operator. Air taxi work is doing well at the moment. 185hrs and a spanking training report from 'LargeFTO Ltd' still cuts little ice with a lot of these sorts of companies which lack HR departments implementing a recruitment strategy approved at board level.
In little time with such a job you'll have an unfrozen ATPL and maybe 2000 hrs of commercial experience and suddenly the worlds your lobster.
Good luck,
WWW
It may well be the case that the large household brand airlines will only take people from Integrated courses, their own heavily bonded sponsorships or a CTC administered placement scheme.
However there are dozens of smaller operators out there who will continue to hire self sponsored Modular trained pilots. I'd be politely presenting myself at the door of perhaps Aer Arran, Eastern or Loganair. Or Southwest or Aurigny or a night freight operator. Air taxi work is doing well at the moment. 185hrs and a spanking training report from 'LargeFTO Ltd' still cuts little ice with a lot of these sorts of companies which lack HR departments implementing a recruitment strategy approved at board level.
In little time with such a job you'll have an unfrozen ATPL and maybe 2000 hrs of commercial experience and suddenly the worlds your lobster.
Good luck,
WWW