UK jobs market and where and how to find that first job?

[deltic]

Numbers seeking airline jobs

I just wondered if anyone had done any research on the figures regarding pilot employment in terms of the following:

(a) How many (F)ATPLs have been issued by the CAA in each year over the past five years?

(b) How many (F)ATPLs have been withdrawn by the CAA in each year over the last five years (age, medical related)

(c) What are the total number of CPLs and ATPLs in the UK?

(d) What is the total number of airline jobs within the UK?

(e) How many pilots gain there first airline job each year?

(f) How many military pilots are leaving the services each year?

I fairly sure this data would be vaible for other professions, such as medicine, dentistry, architecture, etc. My fear is that they is a huge over supply of pilots in this country.

Deltic

[Flashdance9]

The numbers are huge. I think they were published here before- try search?

When people talk about a pilot shortage in the future; it will be a shortage of experienced pilots and captains not low hour graduates.

My opinion on this subject is that the industry will be flooded with low hour inexperienced pilots. With a huge number going for such few places! Especially with all the marketing hype from FTO’s. It must mean that many are going to be left disappointed.

The question I want to ask is will new pilot graduates be of the highest quality?

Natural selection will weed out those of poor quality!

[deltic]

Well of course we all know in this industry, one advert in Flight constitutes a pilot shortage!

[Akuji]

Types of Jobs after training

Hi All!

I was just curious on the types of jobs available after completing an integrated course. I mean any other types of jobs other then working for a big airline compnay.

[blueplume]

Well, let's see: McDonald's, Tesco et.al., **** shovelling, bus driving, travelling salesman (by road), security guard, cabin crew...........

Oh, you mean airlines other than "big" airlines? Lots of charter operators in the world but you got to get off your arse and stop wasting trees. No offence but who really needs to ask such a question?

It doesn't matter in the end whether you do an integrated (=expensive) or any other course, if you show initiative and prove you're the right person you'll get the job.

Grrrr, one sector too many today.

[Akuji]

I think you didn't understand what i meant, I mean jobs such as working for a private airlines an so on, working in Africa as a safari pilot, etc, etc

[Pilot Pete]

Akuji

I think he did understand.....

His comment

No offence but who really needs to ask such a question?

really is true. If you don't know what possible employment opportunities there are after your 'integrated' course, then it does beg the question what on earth were you doing spending so much money with so little idea of your prospects once qualified?

Anyhow, good luck.

PP

ps. try doing a search using something like Google and the words 'pilot jobs'

[theWings]

Hey give the fella a break!

Don't underestimate the power of marketing: if the Posh Flying School has done the usual comprehensive job on Akuji and raised his expectation to the point he hasn't expected to think about anything other than a 'big airline compnay', then this is just the sort of question he's now going to be asking. At least he's started asking. There are many who can't/won't until they are no longer current/solvent/motivated etc etc.

Akuji, blueflame is right, though, you can get many, many pointers around here, but you'll need to get out there and meet people, shake hands etc. It's great fun and it WILL work if you do it right.

Good Luck, mate

[Pilot Pete]

Originally Posted by theWings

There are many who can't/won't until they are no longer current/solvent/motivated etc etc.

This is surely the lesson that EVERYONE contemplating entering training to become a commercial pilot should take from this thread. I have nothing against the original poster of this question and indeed wish him well, BUT, it raises a couple of questions about suitability for the job in my mind;

Firstly, someone who spends about £70k on an integrated course without looking at what opportunities it will open to them is taking a huge un-informed leap of faith. Secondly, someone who isn't able to find all the available opportunities (which, let's face it, are pretty limited) is showing a distinct lack of resourcefulness.

This is a generalised comment and not aimed specifically at the original poster; airlines require a certain amount of flying ability from their applicants, but more a suitable set of personal attributes. Wannabes would do well to research these as well as what school to train at, as it could save them even more money than just school 'A' over school 'B'...

Once again, good luck.

PP

ps The Google search comment was NOT meant to be tongue in cheek..try it!

[A320rider]

you can become a PPRUNE moderator,

[sum1]

After conversion....what jobs?

Hello all, Help/Advice please....

I am looking at the possibility of converting an ICAO cpl to JAA cpl for myself.

I have used the search function as this topic has been covered before.....

so far I have established an approximation of the costs and what is involved in doing the conversion...
basically....
- 14 ATPL exams
- cpl flight check - single engine aircraft- to satisfactory standard of ato
- 15 hours for IR - 10 can be in sim
(I have passport to live and work in EU)

feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I do realise there are likely to be extra sundry costs on top of this, but before going too far into detail....

What I really would like to know, and can't seem to get a realistic idea from reading hundreds of pages on PPRUNE is...what is the job market in the UK really like?

I have Australian and New Zealand CPL, MEIR, approx 1600 hours by time I get there, 200ish Turbine (C208), 250ish multi (PA31) (projecting hours ahead a little as I am not leaving to go there right yet and still logging hours at present job). The majority of my time is in Northern Australia charter and scenic operations.

I have read posts regarding 300 hour pilots looking for jet jobs, and also some with 3000 hours that can't get a job. Also a lot do with buying type ratings....not so keen on that, definitely can't afford it. It is not clear on many airline websites what they require. They all say to apply in writing, or send a cv or fill in online application form, but they don't state what hour requirements they prefer. Wouldn't it really waste their time if people with well below their minimums clogged the recruitment department,or is a bare fATPL the minimum?

All i am really after is some more info to weigh up in the 'is it worth it?' question. It is quite a big move to spend that sort of money on conversions if there is no real prospect of employment. Not expecting long haul BA job or an A380 test pilot job, just want to know what to expect with the time I have. Maybe it is the case that this thread is better in the wannabes section! After 3 years of this kind of work I am definitely keen on doing something different and seeing more of that part of the world in the process.

The more I find out the more questions I will likely have... be good to hear from some that have already done the same thing.

Thanks in advance

[Akuji]

So what companies have you looked into? to wok for in the future, as they may give you guidance on what process to best follow really

[sum1]

Looked at many company websites throughout the UK. Piston, turbo prop and jets. Only very few have minimum hours to apply, but not so sure if they go down to those mins when hiring. Was thinking it is not such a good idea to be contacting these companies before even converting the license yet, as they would have plenty of applicants already qualified and would not be interested until I have the license they require. Just trying to establish what level operator would I have a realistic chance of securing a job at in the present market?

[sum1]

To the top..... any opinions at all?

[Artificial Horizon]

Sum, You are quite right in what you would need to do for a conversion of your licence. You need to sit all 14 ground school exams plus the flying for the CPL + Test then the flying for the IR + Test.The reason you are not getting many replys is because no one really has the answer. I came to the UK six years ago with a nice shiney NZ CPL with about 300 hours. Since then I have converted to a JAA ATPL worked as a flying instructor for 2 years, flown Turboprops all over Europe for 2 years before finally getting my dream job with British Airways. Now with over 3000 hours and a lot of great experiences I have been very very lucky. I have not had to pay for any type ratings along the way and have never been out of work. The problem is I know other Kiwi's and Aussies who have come over and converted then been unable to get the first job!! It is a pure gamble as to what happens. The best advice I can give is that if you are willing to take the gamble then you just simply have to come and give it a go. The market here at the moment is very good with recruitment humming along nicely. With your hours you will be ahead of all the 300 hour pilots looking for the first job and I would think you will have a good chance at a job, maybe!! Don't forget though that it will take you a full year to have you licence converted and by then the whole market may have slowed, especially if things like Bird Flu, conflict with Iran, continuing high oil prices or a fall in the UK economy happen. Of course it could quite easily go the other way and my boom for another few years!! I know that at BA recruitment is expected to continue for at least the next year. Generally most airlines here will consider you if you have a CPL with minimum hours, so as I say you are in good position with your hours. Hope this helps, feel free to PM me if you want any more info.

[A320rider]

stay away from the JAR system,the market is bad in europe, ...

get yourself a type on MD11, or B727 -767, and apply in asia!with your hours, you will get a job.
keep in mind, that airlines dont have the money to train you .

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

With the hours you have, I'd bet that you'd get a turboprop command in less than 18 months. However, the conversion process is not as simple as it sounds on paper. I've been there and done that! Many converters underestimate the difficulty of the process. The ATPL theory is an abstract excercise in answering odd and verbose questions where your real world experience will count for little. As far as as the flying goes, expect to spend big money. 15hrs is not realistic for the IR even if you have been flying a lot of IFR. Expect to fly 20hrs at the minimum and possibly 30hrs. The CPL is a killer if you've not flown VFR in UK airspace. It takes a while to get used to the radio work and airspace. Expect to fly 10-20hrs. At insane, UK prices this means a serious amount of money. If I've not put you off then I wish you luck.

[5 RINGS]

Hello there!

Sorry but I disagree with Fair Weather Flyer.

JAR conversion is not a piece of cake, but coming in the UK with a canadian licence, I managed to convert my CPL in less than 5 hrs (+ skill test), and then was ready to take up the IR test at the end of the mandatory 15 hrs (Finally took it at 20 hrs due to weather + A/C troubles).

The whole process cost me 20000 EUR all inclusive (CAA, VAT, living expenses...).

As far as I could see, FAA guys seemed to struggle a bit more.

Best of luck.

5 Rings

[fullrich]

CONVERTING

Converting is not cheap. The CPL conversion is training to requirement and even though you may be a great pilot, you will have to adjust to the rules and regs of the school and the airspace and I would say a minimum of 10 hours required here. Alot of it really dpends on the school you go to, some may have you ready in 5 hours but my experience was they want your money and will not be seen to encourage the conversion route as a cheap option.

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

I read a lot about the U.K IR skills test here on pprune and I still don't understand why the UK IR is more difficult than the FAA IR.

I have done both the FAA IR and FAA ATPL skills tests and I can not imagine that the U.K IR should be much more difficult.

I did unusual attidues under the hood, airways, NDB holdings, ILS, localizer, VOR etc and the finale was NDB holding with NDB approach with single engine, partial panel, manual gear extesion. (This was for the ATP checkride)

How much more difficult can the UK IR be???????