UK jobs market and where and how to find that first job?
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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"How much more difficult can the UK IR be???????"
The emphasis is in a different area,you will find that UK examiners really test on anything to do with NDB's ,QDM/QDR, ever heard of a 30° gate,extended procedure,fail if more than 5° of a QDM ? Even though some of it is in the US PTS, in my experience the testing on these subjects is not as rigorous as with the CAA. I did both tests myself and the above is the biggest difference in my opinion.Keep in mind that the discretion of the examiner is different as well. If you fly something that looks like a race track(in the US) in the hold that would do for that portian of the test,most examiners that i encounterd after signing of students for a IR test in the US treat the NDB work as the stepchild of aviation.Lets say you track a QDM on your test in the UK(enroute)go of more than 5° in XW conditions and fail to maintain the inbound QDM(again 5°) on a approach with for example coastel effect trying to mess you up, you fail the compleet test and wont walk away with a partial pass.In the US there is fail or pass. In practical terms,in the US the examiner will let you do some NDB work on the retake(even though he has the authority to do the whole test again),in the UK the examiner HAS to do the whole IR again as if it was a initial test. Yes the UK IR is a bigger hurdle than the US IR.
Cheers
The emphasis is in a different area,you will find that UK examiners really test on anything to do with NDB's ,QDM/QDR, ever heard of a 30° gate,extended procedure,fail if more than 5° of a QDM ? Even though some of it is in the US PTS, in my experience the testing on these subjects is not as rigorous as with the CAA. I did both tests myself and the above is the biggest difference in my opinion.Keep in mind that the discretion of the examiner is different as well. If you fly something that looks like a race track(in the US) in the hold that would do for that portian of the test,most examiners that i encounterd after signing of students for a IR test in the US treat the NDB work as the stepchild of aviation.Lets say you track a QDM on your test in the UK(enroute)go of more than 5° in XW conditions and fail to maintain the inbound QDM(again 5°) on a approach with for example coastel effect trying to mess you up, you fail the compleet test and wont walk away with a partial pass.In the US there is fail or pass. In practical terms,in the US the examiner will let you do some NDB work on the retake(even though he has the authority to do the whole test again),in the UK the examiner HAS to do the whole IR again as if it was a initial test. Yes the UK IR is a bigger hurdle than the US IR.
Cheers
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I'd say the main difference between the JAA and NDB stuff is simply the tolerances. The FAA gives you 10 degrees leeway but the JAA only gives 5 degrees. That is three or four times as hard. Being able to do that with any consistency is hard no matter what your experience. In my case I would say it depended more on luck than judgement. NDB's are not precision approaches but the JAA does not seem to have worked that one out. I would say that Hazenhoe is exagerating just how brutal the CAA examiners are. The RMI clearly had some kind of a problem on my test and the examiner cut me some slack. Of course it does depend on the examiner.
The JAA also places emphasis on route flying. This is not difficult but makes the training much more time consuming. Overall I wouldn't say that the JAA stuff is any more difficult. I've seen one individual struggling to convert JAA to FAA. The FAA are as anal about partial panel stuff as the JAA are about NDB's. The sad thing is that despite paying a fortune to convert to JAA, I don't think that my instrument flying has been improved by the conversion process. It was mostly just test BS.
The JAA also places emphasis on route flying. This is not difficult but makes the training much more time consuming. Overall I wouldn't say that the JAA stuff is any more difficult. I've seen one individual struggling to convert JAA to FAA. The FAA are as anal about partial panel stuff as the JAA are about NDB's. The sad thing is that despite paying a fortune to convert to JAA, I don't think that my instrument flying has been improved by the conversion process. It was mostly just test BS.
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I managed to convert my CPL in less than 5 hrs (+ skill test), and then was ready to take up the IR test at the end of the mandatory 15 hrs (Finally took it at 20 hrs due to weather + A/C troubles).
The whole process cost me 20000 EUR all inclusive (CAA, VAT, living expenses...).
5 RINGS,
Could you please break down your costs a in a little more detail…
20,000 ERU seems excessive for that amount of flying, even adding in the exam fees…Not that I doubt you, I am just wondering where the money was spent..
www.waaviationcollege.com.au is quoting $3,300 Australian dollars for theory ( plus 60 pounds to sit each exam) and around $9,000Aust for the flying part of it.
-I am in a similar boat to sum 1 – good post mate!
The whole process cost me 20000 EUR all inclusive (CAA, VAT, living expenses...).
5 RINGS,
Could you please break down your costs a in a little more detail…
20,000 ERU seems excessive for that amount of flying, even adding in the exam fees…Not that I doubt you, I am just wondering where the money was spent..
www.waaviationcollege.com.au is quoting $3,300 Australian dollars for theory ( plus 60 pounds to sit each exam) and around $9,000Aust for the flying part of it.
-I am in a similar boat to sum 1 – good post mate!
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Theory: 1500ish EUR (+14 exam fees: 1150 EUR)
Flight training including MCC: 14000ish EUR
Testing fees: 1600 EUR
Licensing: 450 EUR
and obviously my previous post was a bit optimistic...
Flight training including MCC: 14000ish EUR
Testing fees: 1600 EUR
Licensing: 450 EUR
and obviously my previous post was a bit optimistic...
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Why fATPL holders don't get jobs
Hi everyone!
There are so many people with so much advice on "What you need to do to get a job once you've got the fATPL". It seems to me that any / all of this advice is relevant. I wonder WHAT NOT TO DO. What is it that puts CVs at the bottom of the pile? Poorly written? Trained in the wrong country? Did too much of the wrong sort of flying?
Thanks for your input.
There are so many people with so much advice on "What you need to do to get a job once you've got the fATPL". It seems to me that any / all of this advice is relevant. I wonder WHAT NOT TO DO. What is it that puts CVs at the bottom of the pile? Poorly written? Trained in the wrong country? Did too much of the wrong sort of flying?
Thanks for your input.
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there are so many ways to get hired...and even more to not get hired!..what i mean is of course u are less likely to get ur cv on top of the others if its badly presented and doesnt reflect a good image, but i think there are many other things which are more important than spending 1000000 hrs preparing a cv...an example is to bring it personally to the company if u get the chance...anyway i would say that definetly u should think about what to do to get hired and stick to it sooner or later something will come out
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I wouldn't agree about going in and handing a CV in personally. I think that is a huge no,no...It just gives the wrong impression especially when unannounced.
A well presented CV is essential and once you put in the time initially, alll you have to do is update it as you go along.
I have seen a shocking amount of badly written CVs and no matter the experience of the candidate, it really reflects quite badly on the individual.
Make sure your CV is clear, concise and to the point..and just use common sense.
I saw a CV once that a backdrop of a runway on an approach and it looked terrible...oh yes, one important point (it may sound tedious)...when you write an email address on a CV don't put something like [email protected] or [email protected] an email address with ur proper name on it.
A well presented CV is essential and once you put in the time initially, alll you have to do is update it as you go along.
I have seen a shocking amount of badly written CVs and no matter the experience of the candidate, it really reflects quite badly on the individual.
Make sure your CV is clear, concise and to the point..and just use common sense.
I saw a CV once that a backdrop of a runway on an approach and it looked terrible...oh yes, one important point (it may sound tedious)...when you write an email address on a CV don't put something like [email protected] or [email protected] an email address with ur proper name on it.
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Pipergirl ............ where did you get my e-mail address from ?? ;-)
Nice one !!
Nice one !!
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Un Caravan Jobs
Hey Guys & Girls
I am a Caravan Pilot & I would like any info at all about the UN flying Caravans, or a website I could look at, I have tried but to no avail, If you could help me that would be so much appreciated thankyou
Happy Landings
I am a Caravan Pilot & I would like any info at all about the UN flying Caravans, or a website I could look at, I have tried but to no avail, If you could help me that would be so much appreciated thankyou
Happy Landings
Gizajob
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My biggest rant about what not to do:
STOP ASSUMING THAT AIRLINES ARE DIFFERENT TO OTHER COMPANIES!
Would you be more likely to get a job with BP by giving them a CV personally at Head Office?
If I knew the Head of Finance at Unilever, would I get a job more easily?
If I rang HR at Lehman Brothers every week, would I be first choice for interview?
I doubt any of that would work. Why not? Because companies have policies and plans for recruitment, minimum requirements and procedures. Airlines are no different. Less organised than some on occasion I grant you, but generally no different.
Look at how an airline does business, figure out what its plans might be, use your network to find out about recruitment policies and approaches and only apply to those where you have a realistic chance. Scatter-gunning CVs to everyone in the vain hope they will make an exception for you is a waste of time.
I've done non-airline recruitment in the past and been on the receiving end of applications that just don't fit with what I asked for. They go straight in the bin I'm afraid.
Right - feel better now...
STOP ASSUMING THAT AIRLINES ARE DIFFERENT TO OTHER COMPANIES!
Would you be more likely to get a job with BP by giving them a CV personally at Head Office?
If I knew the Head of Finance at Unilever, would I get a job more easily?
If I rang HR at Lehman Brothers every week, would I be first choice for interview?
I doubt any of that would work. Why not? Because companies have policies and plans for recruitment, minimum requirements and procedures. Airlines are no different. Less organised than some on occasion I grant you, but generally no different.
Look at how an airline does business, figure out what its plans might be, use your network to find out about recruitment policies and approaches and only apply to those where you have a realistic chance. Scatter-gunning CVs to everyone in the vain hope they will make an exception for you is a waste of time.
I've done non-airline recruitment in the past and been on the receiving end of applications that just don't fit with what I asked for. They go straight in the bin I'm afraid.
Right - feel better now...
Last edited by EGBKFLYER; 2nd Mar 2006 at 14:42.
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Knocking on doors does work! I am now on my fourth job and everyjob I gained so far(including this one which is on a Biz Jet)I knocked on door. On my second job I ended up being Chief Pilot. Make sure you send a one page CV with a short cover letter, faxing is good as well as it will end up on CP's desk( and thus it will get noticed).Try and phone the Chief Pilot, and be able to gauge if he busy or not, if he is try another time. Its a lottery/gamble out there for getting jobs. I got my CPL is 96 and never got a fulltime flying job until 99, so never give up and keep yourself current. Thats my pennies worth.
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Check this thread for CV advice. You'll find more within this thread.
There are many ways of skinning this cat. Personal contact can work well with small companies, but it's not appropriate with big companies. However, getting to know pilots in big companies can be a way of getting your CV to the top of the pile - if the company still accepts CVs. Many don't, and will only accept applications via an online form. Nevertheless, personal recommendations can still help.
Scroggs
There are many ways of skinning this cat. Personal contact can work well with small companies, but it's not appropriate with big companies. However, getting to know pilots in big companies can be a way of getting your CV to the top of the pile - if the company still accepts CVs. Many don't, and will only accept applications via an online form. Nevertheless, personal recommendations can still help.
Scroggs
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so you mean you have to work for free, to get a paid job?.
tell me, who is going to employ you, if you can afford to fly for free.
and who can fly for free for 2-3 years, when you have kids at home!.
be honest with what you say, this market can not go any longer!
as for jet or turbine,it does not really matter what you chose, there is simply no job( I mean not a lot of job) on this market as long airlines and government don't regularize this market for us. sending CV, knocking at the door can or can not work... you have to try all techniques.
it is why we see companies like eaglejet making fun of us!
because this aviation market is a joke.
tell me, who is going to employ you, if you can afford to fly for free.
and who can fly for free for 2-3 years, when you have kids at home!.
be honest with what you say, this market can not go any longer!
as for jet or turbine,it does not really matter what you chose, there is simply no job( I mean not a lot of job) on this market as long airlines and government don't regularize this market for us. sending CV, knocking at the door can or can not work... you have to try all techniques.
it is why we see companies like eaglejet making fun of us!
because this aviation market is a joke.
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I have sent thousands of CVs without getting a single interview. I did that for 5 years till I finally concluded it wouldn't work. What I needed was a couple of minutes of attention from the guy in charge of recruitment at a specific company. And that's it. I gathered as much info about the company, spoke with a guy I know already hired by that company and finally made the call. I hadn't even applied nor sent them my CV because I didn't think I had a chance. But I got hired.
What I've learnt from this is that thousands of CV's cannot compete with a phone call to the right guy. If everybody sends as many CVs as myself, just imagine how many CVs a company has to go through. They will have to hire extra personell just to read them all. Not gonna happen. People who get hired has one thing in common, they have all managed to stand out of the crowd, and I have heard many stories common to my own. Actually I believe that not applying and not sending CVs, but calling and showing up in person is the way to land a job.
What I've learnt from this is that thousands of CV's cannot compete with a phone call to the right guy. If everybody sends as many CVs as myself, just imagine how many CVs a company has to go through. They will have to hire extra personell just to read them all. Not gonna happen. People who get hired has one thing in common, they have all managed to stand out of the crowd, and I have heard many stories common to my own. Actually I believe that not applying and not sending CVs, but calling and showing up in person is the way to land a job.
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fatpl and jobs..
How many people on here hold a fatpl and dont have a job? Im just getting worried by the amount of people with this license who struggle to find work. How much have people spent in getting these too, i know the average is £30-£40k. A friend got a sponsorship with an airline - im just wondering if this may help me somewhat in getting a job if i decide to go ahead and attempt to get the license