UK jobs market and where and how to find that first job?
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There are more wannabes than jobs. There always were, and there probably always will be. In UK, right now, there are lot more jobs than there have been for several years - probably as many as there were in the heady days of 1997/98 - but there are still more wannabes than jobs. Get used to it.
That said, don't listen to A320_rider who writes just to see himself in print. There is no legitimate basis for his 'statistics' about out of work pilots. While the situation is less good in other European countries than it is in UK, there are new flying jobs available in almost every country worldwide. However, I doubt there will ever be enough of a pilot shortage for anyone to offer A320_pilot a job! I'm sure he'll do OK as a comedian, anyway.
Scroggs
That said, don't listen to A320_rider who writes just to see himself in print. There is no legitimate basis for his 'statistics' about out of work pilots. While the situation is less good in other European countries than it is in UK, there are new flying jobs available in almost every country worldwide. However, I doubt there will ever be enough of a pilot shortage for anyone to offer A320_pilot a job! I'm sure he'll do OK as a comedian, anyway.
Scroggs
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I've given up countering A320rider's figures as I have done it so many times before. There ARE jobs out there and this year has been better than any since 9/11. This doesn't change the fact that with no experience other than piston single and twin you are still a low houred pilot, one of many hundreds all applying for all the same jobs that you are applying for.
Unfortunately, you are ten-a-penny in recruitment terms so it does take a lot of effort, a bit of luck and a willingness to go and get some more experience and an expectation NOT to waltz straight into the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus. If you go ahead and start training because of a love of flying, then the years you spend flying smaller aircraft will actually be some of your best times, even if you live on peanuts during them!
Sponsorship is obviously the one to aim at, but they are few and far between and you need to be quite an impressive, young individual to get one. Don't bank on it....
Good luck.
PP
Unfortunately, you are ten-a-penny in recruitment terms so it does take a lot of effort, a bit of luck and a willingness to go and get some more experience and an expectation NOT to waltz straight into the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus. If you go ahead and start training because of a love of flying, then the years you spend flying smaller aircraft will actually be some of your best times, even if you live on peanuts during them!
Sponsorship is obviously the one to aim at, but they are few and far between and you need to be quite an impressive, young individual to get one. Don't bank on it....
Good luck.
PP
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Excuse my ignorance, I am very new to all this...
So, after completing CPL/MEIR/MCC with approx 200hrs, what did you guys do next and for how long did you do it for until you got into the golden seat of a jet. What were you earning during this time?
My dilemma is that at the moment I am in my 30's employed in an aviation related job earning £40K / year in London, my wife and I have a comfortable life and are pretty much set up (no kids yet). It is my dream to do what you guys do for a living, as such I am considering re-mortgaging the house to fund the training, but what scares the sxxt out of me is that what if I get no job at the end and no money coming in, how will i support my family. I know it is my decision as to what I do, however, before I get myself into this I want to make sure that I have my eyes wide open and know what to expect.
Any advise will be most appreciated.
So, after completing CPL/MEIR/MCC with approx 200hrs, what did you guys do next and for how long did you do it for until you got into the golden seat of a jet. What were you earning during this time?
My dilemma is that at the moment I am in my 30's employed in an aviation related job earning £40K / year in London, my wife and I have a comfortable life and are pretty much set up (no kids yet). It is my dream to do what you guys do for a living, as such I am considering re-mortgaging the house to fund the training, but what scares the sxxt out of me is that what if I get no job at the end and no money coming in, how will i support my family. I know it is my decision as to what I do, however, before I get myself into this I want to make sure that I have my eyes wide open and know what to expect.
Any advise will be most appreciated.
Jet Blast Rat
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That is very much a legitimate concern. I know people who have ended up in that position, one of whom posts here and, I beleive, is now on his way up with a flying job, and others who have lost their marriage because of the strains of becomig a pilot. However there is work out there if you are willing and able to take those risks and to work hard, accept a drop in living standards, accept that your early jobs will be paid less than what you are on now. I am afraid that it is a risk, but everyone I know who has the time available (i.e. is not starting on the older end, where time is more critical) and persists seems to get there in the end.
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I very much agree with B200Drver's outlook. Every pilot I've met who has been willing to work at it has found a good flying job in the end. That's why I went ahead with my own training. By working at it I mean beavering away at the arse end of the industry PPL instructing or glider towing.
I would bet that 90% of trainees anticipate a medium size jet job on FATPL completion but probably only 10% get that job. Some of the unlucky 90% are happy and able to do the aforementioned hour building jobs and always get there in the end. The rest seem to form this huge group of 250hr FATPL holders who have only their own basic training to offer.
I would bet that 90% of trainees anticipate a medium size jet job on FATPL completion but probably only 10% get that job. Some of the unlucky 90% are happy and able to do the aforementioned hour building jobs and always get there in the end. The rest seem to form this huge group of 250hr FATPL holders who have only their own basic training to offer.
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I don't expect to fall straight into a shiny jet job with a fATPL @ 250hrs. I would be more then willing to do some hard graft to be able to get to such a position. I don't care what flying it is, so long as I am in the air and not on the ground, it can be instructing, air taxi, aerial,... etc.
But what I would like to know is, from you experienced guys:
1) How long did you have to do such jobs before you achieved a rhs on a jet?
2) What were you earning during this period?
But what I would like to know is, from you experienced guys:
1) How long did you have to do such jobs before you achieved a rhs on a jet?
2) What were you earning during this period?
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send clowns...
i really dont know where you get your ideas from...we are in a great job yes, but it is just a job like any other...dont try to make it out to be something that it isnt.
what makes you so special that you can judge peoples attitudes...are you someone doing the hiring of pilots, are you a chief pilot, are you a head of recruitment?
it is a forum where people say what they are thinking, and if you think because i write all in lower case it means i would do so in a formal letter, like the guy who you said mis-spelled or didnt use perfect grammar...
come on, stop being so anal!
i really dont know where you get your ideas from...we are in a great job yes, but it is just a job like any other...dont try to make it out to be something that it isnt.
what makes you so special that you can judge peoples attitudes...are you someone doing the hiring of pilots, are you a chief pilot, are you a head of recruitment?
it is a forum where people say what they are thinking, and if you think because i write all in lower case it means i would do so in a formal letter, like the guy who you said mis-spelled or didnt use perfect grammar...
come on, stop being so anal!
Jet Blast Rat
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Then I reckon you'll get there, Batfink, and good luck to you 
How long is a far more difficult question. Timing, luck, contacts and your personality can have such a huge effect that it really is impossible to say. Often it will be 6 months to two years, but at the moment that is righ down for a lot of people. I hit the worst time and have waited over 4 years, but it has been worth it - I absolutely love my job
South Coast
The job is 'just' a job, though to many of us a great one. However the industry is not just any industry. For a huge number of reasons I have observed that recruitment differs in aviation to that in many other areas of work. One of the main reasons is that many people have spent a lot of money to do a job they really want. Another reason is the close confines of the cockpit an the enforced socialising when ending up "down route" with crews.
I am not in pilot recruitment, although I know people who are or have been and have talked with them about these issues. I have also seen many people go through training, and many of them find jobs across different sectors ofthe industry. I base my comments on my observations and discussions.
Notice that your post is harder to read than others because it is all in lower case. Why do you not then use capitals?
How long is a far more difficult question. Timing, luck, contacts and your personality can have such a huge effect that it really is impossible to say. Often it will be 6 months to two years, but at the moment that is righ down for a lot of people. I hit the worst time and have waited over 4 years, but it has been worth it - I absolutely love my job
South Coast
The job is 'just' a job, though to many of us a great one. However the industry is not just any industry. For a huge number of reasons I have observed that recruitment differs in aviation to that in many other areas of work. One of the main reasons is that many people have spent a lot of money to do a job they really want. Another reason is the close confines of the cockpit an the enforced socialising when ending up "down route" with crews.
I am not in pilot recruitment, although I know people who are or have been and have talked with them about these issues. I have also seen many people go through training, and many of them find jobs across different sectors ofthe industry. I base my comments on my observations and discussions.
Notice that your post is harder to read than others because it is all in lower case. Why do you not then use capitals?
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because i just type without wanting to have to stop and use capital letters at the beginning of sentences and when i use the letter i.
as for being harder to read, never heard that one before.
i see the number of postings you have made, 6,000 odd, what airline is it that you work for allowing you so much time off to make so many postings...i only ask because i would like to work for them too!
as for being harder to read, never heard that one before.
i see the number of postings you have made, 6,000 odd, what airline is it that you work for allowing you so much time off to make so many postings...i only ask because i would like to work for them too!
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be careful!
If you have a family, comfortable job, and nice house don't do it! I've seen people go bust luckly they didn't have any family or assets, if they did then the house and everything else would have to rightly go to pay bank back if you didn't get a job.
I'm a low-hour FATPL guy and haven't got any jobs as yet, think of the damage that does when you give up your job to do a full-time ATPL...
£60k plus interest = £100k plus say your salary 2x£25k= £50k and then the type rating £10k that's going to cost you £160,000.... = 1 house and homeless family.
Think about it.
I'm a low-hour FATPL guy and haven't got any jobs as yet, think of the damage that does when you give up your job to do a full-time ATPL...
£60k plus interest = £100k plus say your salary 2x£25k= £50k and then the type rating £10k that's going to cost you £160,000.... = 1 house and homeless family.
Think about it.
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Send Clowns,
Thanks for the advise, much appreciated.
South Coast,
Bravo.... Bravo...
You seem to say exactly what I'm thinking. I totally agree and this is what I was trying to get at earlier regarding the grammar issue. By the way, I've had NO problems reading your posts, they are as easy to read as anyone else's.
I was somewhat put back when I was requesting help and advise and all I got was criticism about grammar etc with no reference to my actual query.
Preston,
You hit the nail on the head. It's so much to risk, but then the thought of not pursuing a flying career is just gut wrenching. Rock and hard place come to mind.
Thanks for the advise, much appreciated.
South Coast,
Bravo.... Bravo...
You seem to say exactly what I'm thinking. I totally agree and this is what I was trying to get at earlier regarding the grammar issue. By the way, I've had NO problems reading your posts, they are as easy to read as anyone else's.
I was somewhat put back when I was requesting help and advise and all I got was criticism about grammar etc with no reference to my actual query.
Preston,
You hit the nail on the head. It's so much to risk, but then the thought of not pursuing a flying career is just gut wrenching. Rock and hard place come to mind.
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Capital letters are there at the beginning of sentance so you can easily see when one ends and a new one starts. With only a full stop to separate sentances it just becomes one long jumble of words and not particularly readable.
What happened to basic GCSE English, or is everyone just too lazy these days to take a few seconds of thought over a post? Maybe thats why there are so many posts where people are too quick to get to the submit button and post their rant without thinking through what they are say.
Ah well, I think I'm the one ranting now. I'll get my coat...
What happened to basic GCSE English, or is everyone just too lazy these days to take a few seconds of thought over a post? Maybe thats why there are so many posts where people are too quick to get to the submit button and post their rant without thinking through what they are say.
Ah well, I think I'm the one ranting now. I'll get my coat...
Jet Blast Rat
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Hahaha, South I have never worked for an airline per se, but was in the flight training industry, so often in front of a computer between classes, and able to help students with a quick post, or add some sarky comment on Jet Blast. As a flight instructor I also posted on that forum quite a bit, for advice and to discuss other people's questions. I am now an ad-hoc charter company pilot, so have time waiting in the office so we can get flying as soon as a job comes through, as we live or die by reaction times. I have also been posting for quite some time, about 5 years!
So what you are saying is "because I'm lazy and can't be bothered to write properly"? So what does that say to the people who you are trying to communicate with? That what you or they are saying is not worth your effort? Believe me that is how it comes across, and when someone is asking for advice or wanting to make a good first impression it is not the best way to start! As I have said I often have answered people's questions here and on the professioanl training forum, and I put a lot of effort into making what I write clear, unambiguous and easy to understand. I might not always succeed, but I am far more likely to try if the person I am answering takes his own words seriously.
Try reading your post quickly against a correctly-written one. I certainly find I have to concentrate a lot harder. Punctuation and capitalisation is there for a reason, and when you are used to it reading is harder without it! I suspect you are younger than I am, and from the "text" generation who read a lot of none-standard sentence construction, so you are used to that. However it will slow down your rate of assimilation of text, because of the way a brain reads most efficiently. Ideally you want your eye to scan sentences in a certain pattern, and that can more easily be achieved by using a clear sentence structure and if all words are approximately correctly spellt, all punctuation laid to make the information clear. Unfortunately my spelling is poor, but I work on that and make sure my grammar is not bad to help write clearly.
So what you are saying is "because I'm lazy and can't be bothered to write properly"? So what does that say to the people who you are trying to communicate with? That what you or they are saying is not worth your effort? Believe me that is how it comes across, and when someone is asking for advice or wanting to make a good first impression it is not the best way to start! As I have said I often have answered people's questions here and on the professioanl training forum, and I put a lot of effort into making what I write clear, unambiguous and easy to understand. I might not always succeed, but I am far more likely to try if the person I am answering takes his own words seriously.
Try reading your post quickly against a correctly-written one. I certainly find I have to concentrate a lot harder. Punctuation and capitalisation is there for a reason, and when you are used to it reading is harder without it! I suspect you are younger than I am, and from the "text" generation who read a lot of none-standard sentence construction, so you are used to that. However it will slow down your rate of assimilation of text, because of the way a brain reads most efficiently. Ideally you want your eye to scan sentences in a certain pattern, and that can more easily be achieved by using a clear sentence structure and if all words are approximately correctly spellt, all punctuation laid to make the information clear. Unfortunately my spelling is poor, but I work on that and make sure my grammar is not bad to help write clearly.
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Originally Posted by Batfink58
Excuse my ignorance, I am very new to all this...
So, after completing CPL/MEIR/MCC with approx 200hrs, what did you guys do next and for how long did you do it for until you got into the golden seat of a jet. What were you earning during this time?
My dilemma is that at the moment I am in my 30's employed in an aviation related job earning £40K / year in London, my wife and I have a comfortable life and are pretty much set up (no kids yet). It is my dream to do what you guys do for a living, as such I am considering re-mortgaging the house to fund the training, but what scares the sxxt out of me is that what if I get no job at the end and no money coming in, how will i support my family. I know it is my decision as to what I do, however, before I get myself into this I want to make sure that I have my eyes wide open and know what to expect.
Any advise will be most appreciated.
So, after completing CPL/MEIR/MCC with approx 200hrs, what did you guys do next and for how long did you do it for until you got into the golden seat of a jet. What were you earning during this time?
My dilemma is that at the moment I am in my 30's employed in an aviation related job earning £40K / year in London, my wife and I have a comfortable life and are pretty much set up (no kids yet). It is my dream to do what you guys do for a living, as such I am considering re-mortgaging the house to fund the training, but what scares the sxxt out of me is that what if I get no job at the end and no money coming in, how will i support my family. I know it is my decision as to what I do, however, before I get myself into this I want to make sure that I have my eyes wide open and know what to expect.
Any advise will be most appreciated.
FNav
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Clowns, while you're dishing out the advice do you think you might find the time to take some?
One of the few true gentlemen left in aviation once told me that the most dangerous thing after a junior officer with a map and compass is an untested assumption, akin to the ones you're making about south coast.
Have you met him? Flown with him? Socialised with him? Of course you haven't. I on the other hand have and know him to be a conscientious and professional pilot who cuts no corners. His choice to be a little informal in an internet forum which is not 'real life' (take note) in no way detracts from his work. If, as you say, he gives the wrong impression how do explain his successful career thus far?
I'd fly and have a drink with him any day unlike a certain (then) unemployed instructor I met at a Gatbash several years ago who didn't even have the manners to thank me for buying him a beer though I don't suppose your memory allows you to see that far back from your lofty perch.
One of the few true gentlemen left in aviation once told me that the most dangerous thing after a junior officer with a map and compass is an untested assumption, akin to the ones you're making about south coast.
Have you met him? Flown with him? Socialised with him? Of course you haven't. I on the other hand have and know him to be a conscientious and professional pilot who cuts no corners. His choice to be a little informal in an internet forum which is not 'real life' (take note) in no way detracts from his work. If, as you say, he gives the wrong impression how do explain his successful career thus far?
I'd fly and have a drink with him any day unlike a certain (then) unemployed instructor I met at a Gatbash several years ago who didn't even have the manners to thank me for buying him a beer though I don't suppose your memory allows you to see that far back from your lofty perch.
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well, flintstone, my learned friend....how can i reply to that. all i can say is you are a gentleman and a tight fit!
just seems that send clowns is knit picking with people about things which really have no bearing on anything...
must be fun being his f/o....not!
just seems that send clowns is knit picking with people about things which really have no bearing on anything...
must be fun being his f/o....not!
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Guys,
I'd like to ask a simple question if I may?
Is it possible to pursue a modular training programme all the way to a fATPL, whilst keeping a full time job? (i.e train during weekend, evenings and take a few weeks leave from work etc).
What I'm thinking is that if I can go through with the training and keep my job, then at least I will have money coming in to support the family and pay the increased mortgage loan on my house. This way I will still have a job at the end of it and all I will have lost is the money (a lot of it) if things don't work out.
Since I'm not 100% familiar with the way things go, I'm looking at you guys for advise.
Have any of you done it this way or know of anyone who has? If so, how long, approximately, did it take to get to fATPL?
As always, any constructive advise would be much much appreciated.
Thanks
I'd like to ask a simple question if I may?
Is it possible to pursue a modular training programme all the way to a fATPL, whilst keeping a full time job? (i.e train during weekend, evenings and take a few weeks leave from work etc).
What I'm thinking is that if I can go through with the training and keep my job, then at least I will have money coming in to support the family and pay the increased mortgage loan on my house. This way I will still have a job at the end of it and all I will have lost is the money (a lot of it) if things don't work out.
Since I'm not 100% familiar with the way things go, I'm looking at you guys for advise.
Have any of you done it this way or know of anyone who has? If so, how long, approximately, did it take to get to fATPL?
As always, any constructive advise would be much much appreciated.
Thanks
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Batfink
Yes It ceratinaly is possible. I have done so but I am lucky enough to have a flexible job and very understanding wife. I have met others who left their jobs saying it was too tough but everybodys circumstatnces are different. Try to keep earning as long as possible and do not leave until ye have another one lined up..my advice! Do the CPL at weekends and keep some of your holidays for the end of the MEIR.
Yes It ceratinaly is possible. I have done so but I am lucky enough to have a flexible job and very understanding wife. I have met others who left their jobs saying it was too tough but everybodys circumstatnces are different. Try to keep earning as long as possible and do not leave until ye have another one lined up..my advice! Do the CPL at weekends and keep some of your holidays for the end of the MEIR.
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UK or USA, there is no so much difference.
what I have noticed in the UK, it is the wind.
with 20-40 knots of wind at 3000 feet, it mess all your heading, and you have to fly very precisely.
even in Europe(france, italy) we do not have so much wind at these low levels.
outside of this, I have not seen so many differences except the CAA fees!!!(criminals)
what I suggest:if you have a Non JAA license, do not waste time and money with these
, be typed, and take your chance in China, india, Africa,...
what I have noticed in the UK, it is the wind.
with 20-40 knots of wind at 3000 feet, it mess all your heading, and you have to fly very precisely.
even in Europe(france, italy) we do not have so much wind at these low levels.
outside of this, I have not seen so many differences except the CAA fees!!!(criminals)
what I suggest:if you have a Non JAA license, do not waste time and money with these
, be typed, and take your chance in China, india, Africa,...