Electra at CGN
Electra at CGN
electra windmil start
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Rotary
I know this one! The AAG chief pilot told me. The captain lets go of the controls and pulls the handles himself because theres no use to holding the control column cause it aint doing nothing (quote!). With that sort of attitude from the chief pilot the 3rd seaters are probably glad to be out of it.
I know this one! The AAG chief pilot told me. The captain lets go of the controls and pulls the handles himself because theres no use to holding the control column cause it aint doing nothing (quote!). With that sort of attitude from the chief pilot the 3rd seaters are probably glad to be out of it.
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Chris Cargo,
Your quote of the AAG Chief Pilot is distorted to the point where you could follow a career in Fleet Street. You make it sound as if this is some crazy drill that has been invented by their CP. The reality is that with a gust locked aircraft the controls are to all intents and purposes locked. The only way to achieve any sort of response from the controls is to use excessive force in the desired direction. Now what do you think would happen if the controls were de-boosted whilst this excessive force was applied. For this reason, Lockheed, not the AAG Chief Pilot, state that no control input should be applied whilst de-boosting. The drill then is that the Captain will de-boost the controls whilst the FO will act as handling pilot and cover the controls. The whole procedure would take maybe ten seconds. It is not a situation I would ever like to be in, but I don't see that a third crew member would make any difference.
As for a windmill start without the services of an FE, I guess that it had never occurred to anyone at Atlantic that they might want a cup of coffee in the middle of this procedure!
Your quote of the AAG Chief Pilot is distorted to the point where you could follow a career in Fleet Street. You make it sound as if this is some crazy drill that has been invented by their CP. The reality is that with a gust locked aircraft the controls are to all intents and purposes locked. The only way to achieve any sort of response from the controls is to use excessive force in the desired direction. Now what do you think would happen if the controls were de-boosted whilst this excessive force was applied. For this reason, Lockheed, not the AAG Chief Pilot, state that no control input should be applied whilst de-boosting. The drill then is that the Captain will de-boost the controls whilst the FO will act as handling pilot and cover the controls. The whole procedure would take maybe ten seconds. It is not a situation I would ever like to be in, but I don't see that a third crew member would make any difference.
As for a windmill start without the services of an FE, I guess that it had never occurred to anyone at Atlantic that they might want a cup of coffee in the middle of this procedure!
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With no hydraulics no amount of force on the controls is going to make any difference. The controls are locked, so applying force to them before de-boosting is pointless. With three crew the flight engineer can deboost while the captain continues looking out the window. With two crew the captain has to bend to the right, reach down to the floor and simultaneously pull three cables, then hope that when he looks up his windscreen isn't full of terra firma. Personally, I think it's crazy. I was on an Electra where we lost all hydraulics just after take-off (Bus A failure during gear retraction), and if we hadn't had a flight engineer I do not think I would be writing this now.
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Nice one SBA. Captain Cargo, whilst the loss on Bus A on take off is "not a good thing", it would not require deboosting the controls as you still have a Bus B powered hydraulic pump.
I can't believe that almost 3 years on, we still have this back-biting about flying 2 crew electra's. It's not some crazy move dreamed up by Atlantic. Lockheed, the FAA, and the CAA were all involved in the certification process, involving many hours in the Sim and also the aircraft itself. The Deboosting procedure was demonstrated (on the sim!) as were many combinations of other failures, and only then was 2 crew operation allowed.
The fact is, the Electra was designed around the 2 crew concept, but due to FAR regs at the time, all A/C had to have 3 crew. As anyone knows who has been in an Electra, the F/E doesn't have a panel as in the 727. All emergency procedures can be handled from the Capt's & F/O's seat with the exception of the secondary emergency gear extension which is accomplished from a handle in the rear of the flight deck floor, and is in any case not something which needs to be immediately accessible - there is plenty of time while flying round the hold for someone to go and and pull it if the the situation dictates.
I realise that the 2 crew concept is not something that some people are familiar with, especially on the electra, but trust me, it works, its enjoyable, and the truth is, if a different company came up with it, it would be seen as a great innovation, but as it was Atlantic, it must be dodgy!
Can we have an end to "ahh, but what if you have to deboost" back biting?
I can't believe that almost 3 years on, we still have this back-biting about flying 2 crew electra's. It's not some crazy move dreamed up by Atlantic. Lockheed, the FAA, and the CAA were all involved in the certification process, involving many hours in the Sim and also the aircraft itself. The Deboosting procedure was demonstrated (on the sim!) as were many combinations of other failures, and only then was 2 crew operation allowed.
The fact is, the Electra was designed around the 2 crew concept, but due to FAR regs at the time, all A/C had to have 3 crew. As anyone knows who has been in an Electra, the F/E doesn't have a panel as in the 727. All emergency procedures can be handled from the Capt's & F/O's seat with the exception of the secondary emergency gear extension which is accomplished from a handle in the rear of the flight deck floor, and is in any case not something which needs to be immediately accessible - there is plenty of time while flying round the hold for someone to go and and pull it if the the situation dictates.
I realise that the 2 crew concept is not something that some people are familiar with, especially on the electra, but trust me, it works, its enjoyable, and the truth is, if a different company came up with it, it would be seen as a great innovation, but as it was Atlantic, it must be dodgy!
Can we have an end to "ahh, but what if you have to deboost" back biting?
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Well,my last post seemed to get people talking!
There seems to be a young impressionable crew member out there that is missing the point.
During the 10(ten) seconds that he/she is getting out of his/her seat,presuming he/she,(O.K. enough,you know what I mean),can get to the de-boost controls,in a hurry,without the aircraft going AWOL,is it possible for you to pull the controls without getting the cables into a tangle.
There had to be a reason why we always took off with the de-boost controls uncovered.
There seems to be a young impressionable crew member out there that is missing the point.
During the 10(ten) seconds that he/she is getting out of his/her seat,presuming he/she,(O.K. enough,you know what I mean),can get to the de-boost controls,in a hurry,without the aircraft going AWOL,is it possible for you to pull the controls without getting the cables into a tangle.
There had to be a reason why we always took off with the de-boost controls uncovered.
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Rotary,
Atlantic still take off and land with the boost control doors open, and there is no need for anyone to get out of their seat to deboost the controls. This is practised on a regular basis during training and no-one has yet got the cables in a tangle whilst de-boosting.
I am speculating that with your L188 connections and the Eire connection that your association is with ACL, Hunting, Air Bridge. For many years, this company operated the Merchantman which I believe was built by Vickers as a 3 crew machine and subsequently modified for BEA for 2 crew operation. Did Hunting receive all this criticism over the 2 crew issue. Much like Atlantic, the STC was initiated by a previous operator of the aircraft type.
Chris Cargo,
If it makes you happier thinking that the Captain looking out of the window in a control locked aircraft can have any effect on events, then so be it. The Atlantic drill has the FO carrying out this role whilst the Captain deboosts and I really can't see what the problem is with this system. Perhaps a better understanding of your aircraft systems, as demonstrated by your Bus A comments, would remove some of your irrational fears.
For the uninitiated (or ill informed) a gust locked situation such as this would involve simultaneous failures of at least two un-related systems. After take off, the aircraft is trimmed for 10 degrees pitch up and should therefore continue to climb approximately straight ahead. A far worse scenario would be a gust lock in the latter stages of the approach, as the aircraft is set up to descend and will continue to do so. I firmly believe that in this situation my sense of self preservation would let me de-boost the controls in a more timely fashion than asking a third crew member to carry out the necessary actions.
The only people who are in a proper position to judge on the two crew issue are those who have operated both systems. Ask any Atlantic pilot about this issue and you will get a true reflection of the facts.
YES, BUT WHAT IF ALL THE ENGINES WENT INTO REVERSE AND THE WINGS FELL OFF? WHAT WOULD YOU DO THEN?
Atlantic still take off and land with the boost control doors open, and there is no need for anyone to get out of their seat to deboost the controls. This is practised on a regular basis during training and no-one has yet got the cables in a tangle whilst de-boosting.
I am speculating that with your L188 connections and the Eire connection that your association is with ACL, Hunting, Air Bridge. For many years, this company operated the Merchantman which I believe was built by Vickers as a 3 crew machine and subsequently modified for BEA for 2 crew operation. Did Hunting receive all this criticism over the 2 crew issue. Much like Atlantic, the STC was initiated by a previous operator of the aircraft type.
Chris Cargo,
If it makes you happier thinking that the Captain looking out of the window in a control locked aircraft can have any effect on events, then so be it. The Atlantic drill has the FO carrying out this role whilst the Captain deboosts and I really can't see what the problem is with this system. Perhaps a better understanding of your aircraft systems, as demonstrated by your Bus A comments, would remove some of your irrational fears.
For the uninitiated (or ill informed) a gust locked situation such as this would involve simultaneous failures of at least two un-related systems. After take off, the aircraft is trimmed for 10 degrees pitch up and should therefore continue to climb approximately straight ahead. A far worse scenario would be a gust lock in the latter stages of the approach, as the aircraft is set up to descend and will continue to do so. I firmly believe that in this situation my sense of self preservation would let me de-boost the controls in a more timely fashion than asking a third crew member to carry out the necessary actions.
The only people who are in a proper position to judge on the two crew issue are those who have operated both systems. Ask any Atlantic pilot about this issue and you will get a true reflection of the facts.
YES, BUT WHAT IF ALL THE ENGINES WENT INTO REVERSE AND THE WINGS FELL OFF? WHAT WOULD YOU DO THEN?
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Ragspanner,
Actually the question was not "Did an Atlantic L188 carry out a windmill start the other night?" The question from the grammatically challenged Ivan Aromer was "How this happen on two crew airplane?"
Sorry to disappoint you all but if it did occur then it is all legitimate. Atlantic have procedures and training in place for this and three engine take-offs. Channel Express also hold approval for three engine take off, and I assume windmill start, as the operating technique is very similar for these two procedures.
It may seem unusual for those operating other types, but bear in mind that there are very few four engine propliners left in Europe. I assume you couldn't adopt a windmill start procedure in a twin and you wouldn't want to with fifty punters in the back of a Dash 7, so that leaves the Electra and the Herc. The Electra can, and does, adopt this procedure in the correct circumstances.
I believe the Herc suffers from a greater asymmetric control problem, which is one of the reasons that it is not on the UK register, so it may be a problem with a windmill start or three engine take off, however I don't have the facts to back that up, so it may be entirely incorrect.
Either way, it's no big deal in an L188, and it's legitimate, so get off our backs and find something more constructive to do with your time.
Actually the question was not "Did an Atlantic L188 carry out a windmill start the other night?" The question from the grammatically challenged Ivan Aromer was "How this happen on two crew airplane?"
Sorry to disappoint you all but if it did occur then it is all legitimate. Atlantic have procedures and training in place for this and three engine take-offs. Channel Express also hold approval for three engine take off, and I assume windmill start, as the operating technique is very similar for these two procedures.
It may seem unusual for those operating other types, but bear in mind that there are very few four engine propliners left in Europe. I assume you couldn't adopt a windmill start procedure in a twin and you wouldn't want to with fifty punters in the back of a Dash 7, so that leaves the Electra and the Herc. The Electra can, and does, adopt this procedure in the correct circumstances.
I believe the Herc suffers from a greater asymmetric control problem, which is one of the reasons that it is not on the UK register, so it may be a problem with a windmill start or three engine take off, however I don't have the facts to back that up, so it may be entirely incorrect.
Either way, it's no big deal in an L188, and it's legitimate, so get off our backs and find something more constructive to do with your time.
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A couple of points regarding Electra flight controls:
1. Next time you're up training and at a safe height, turn off all hydraulic pumps without de-boosting. The controls are not locked, just extremely difficult to move. You can still manually port hydraulic fluid and move the control surfaces, allbeit with very reduced mechanical advantage. Although the aircraft was not certified to be flown this way, an average pilot, with the help of the trim tabs should still be able to maintain adequate flight path control.
2. Next time you're in the sim perform a takeoff with all hydraulic pumps off, not de-boosted, but ensure the elevators are in the neutral position prior to turning off hydraulics. Appy power, sit back and watch what happens. If the trims are set at takeoff position the aircraft lifts off on its own and flys away into the sunset at a pitch angle of between 5 and 10 degrees, with no pilot input, let alone a flight engineer input!
So, total hydraulic failure close to the ground, no big deal really. If it happened to me, I'd be inclined to control flight path with trim, get well away from the ground (2000-3000 ft) before de-boosting.
The problem comes when you have multiple failures close to the ground, i.e. hydraulic and engine failures. Very unlikely, but it has happened. An Electra was lost in Boston in 1960 when it encountered a multiple bird strike shortly after lift-off. Number one engine autofeathered, 2 others surged and their generators went off frequency (3 generator aircraft). However, not even the flight engineer could save them that day.
Statistically, the Electra is a very safe aircraft with much built-in redundancy and there's nothing to suggest that two-crew has changed that.
1. Next time you're up training and at a safe height, turn off all hydraulic pumps without de-boosting. The controls are not locked, just extremely difficult to move. You can still manually port hydraulic fluid and move the control surfaces, allbeit with very reduced mechanical advantage. Although the aircraft was not certified to be flown this way, an average pilot, with the help of the trim tabs should still be able to maintain adequate flight path control.
2. Next time you're in the sim perform a takeoff with all hydraulic pumps off, not de-boosted, but ensure the elevators are in the neutral position prior to turning off hydraulics. Appy power, sit back and watch what happens. If the trims are set at takeoff position the aircraft lifts off on its own and flys away into the sunset at a pitch angle of between 5 and 10 degrees, with no pilot input, let alone a flight engineer input!
So, total hydraulic failure close to the ground, no big deal really. If it happened to me, I'd be inclined to control flight path with trim, get well away from the ground (2000-3000 ft) before de-boosting.
The problem comes when you have multiple failures close to the ground, i.e. hydraulic and engine failures. Very unlikely, but it has happened. An Electra was lost in Boston in 1960 when it encountered a multiple bird strike shortly after lift-off. Number one engine autofeathered, 2 others surged and their generators went off frequency (3 generator aircraft). However, not even the flight engineer could save them that day.
Statistically, the Electra is a very safe aircraft with much built-in redundancy and there's nothing to suggest that two-crew has changed that.
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What sims that? The bolted-down box in Seattle? Did you see that video of the Argentine Air Force Electra that they have? Now , there was an example of someone trying to fly an Electra with no hydraulics, without deboosting. Hmmm....
You sound pretty confident. How long have you been flying them?
Good luck.
You sound pretty confident. How long have you been flying them?
Good luck.
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Argentine Navy accident: A few contributory factors by the 3 crew members:
They shut down a perfectly servicable engine.
They mismanaged a 3 engine approach and landing.
They struck a fuel bowzer on the go-around from the approach, taking out the left main gear, it's hydraulic fluid and shearing the coordinator on that engine.
In the final approach they e-handled the 3 remaining engines in the flare. Number 2 wouldn't feather and remained at around 75% power. Hydraulics were lost as B bus only remained powering a hydraulic system with no fluid. No one thought to de-boost before the approach, or to turn fuel and ignition off on the number 2 engine.
The aircraft climbed away on one engine, no hydraulics, not de-boosted, below safety speed, rolled and crashed.
They all walked away; a measure of the strenth of the Electra.
There is nothing to suggest that 2 crew in the same situation could have made any more mistakes than did 3!
They shut down a perfectly servicable engine.
They mismanaged a 3 engine approach and landing.
They struck a fuel bowzer on the go-around from the approach, taking out the left main gear, it's hydraulic fluid and shearing the coordinator on that engine.
In the final approach they e-handled the 3 remaining engines in the flare. Number 2 wouldn't feather and remained at around 75% power. Hydraulics were lost as B bus only remained powering a hydraulic system with no fluid. No one thought to de-boost before the approach, or to turn fuel and ignition off on the number 2 engine.
The aircraft climbed away on one engine, no hydraulics, not de-boosted, below safety speed, rolled and crashed.
They all walked away; a measure of the strenth of the Electra.
There is nothing to suggest that 2 crew in the same situation could have made any more mistakes than did 3!
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Simufly -
There's nothing in the AFM that covers windmill starts. An operator wouldn't attempt one without approval, training and procedures. Perhaps someone from this company could elaborate. I'd be interested to know what the stipulated minimum field length was for this manoeuvre?
There's nothing in the AFM that covers windmill starts. An operator wouldn't attempt one without approval, training and procedures. Perhaps someone from this company could elaborate. I'd be interested to know what the stipulated minimum field length was for this manoeuvre?
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Ragspanner,
If Channel do not have procedures for windmill start, then I am sure that any Atlantic TRE would happily release details of the approved procedure. Atlantic have worked with Channel on matters such as this before, with Channel being extremely cooperative regarding three engine ferry procedures and reduced temperature take off procedures. As you say, the procedure is no big deal and is far less complex than the three engine take off for which Channel hold approval.
Captain Cargo,
I am sorry that you don't approve of the box bolted to the floor in Seattle, but the unfortunate fact is that it is all that is available. More to the point is the fact that Atlantic still use the facility, despite its limitations, for initial and continuation training. How do other operators train for system failures on a regular basis, as there is a limit to what you can do on the aircraft.
Electraflying,
The minimum field length is derived from the three engine take off flight manual supplement. This offers a minimum required field length with an abort up to Vr assuming acceleration on three engines, and the 14L/32R at Cologne would certainly fall within the required parameters.
If Channel do not have procedures for windmill start, then I am sure that any Atlantic TRE would happily release details of the approved procedure. Atlantic have worked with Channel on matters such as this before, with Channel being extremely cooperative regarding three engine ferry procedures and reduced temperature take off procedures. As you say, the procedure is no big deal and is far less complex than the three engine take off for which Channel hold approval.
Captain Cargo,
I am sorry that you don't approve of the box bolted to the floor in Seattle, but the unfortunate fact is that it is all that is available. More to the point is the fact that Atlantic still use the facility, despite its limitations, for initial and continuation training. How do other operators train for system failures on a regular basis, as there is a limit to what you can do on the aircraft.
Electraflying,
The minimum field length is derived from the three engine take off flight manual supplement. This offers a minimum required field length with an abort up to Vr assuming acceleration on three engines, and the 14L/32R at Cologne would certainly fall within the required parameters.