Electra at CGN
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Well SBA, instead of looking out the window on the 440 should the captain not have been pulling the firehandle! Or was that not required also. Don't people tire of being always 'right'? Bit off the subject I know, but this was on a flight with one extra member (or was he making the steely eyed captain a hot drink - coffee would have been good, might have woken him up!), as opposed to one less! Well thats aviation for you, tends to bite when least expected, or wanted. All we can do is ensure as SAFE an operation as possible exists. I am sure you agree, and can no doubt explain to all concerned how safety was enhanced by removing third man. How stupid could the previous operators have been for all those years.
I am sure that this had nothing to do with economics, so will not even mention it.
I am sure that this had nothing to do with economics, so will not even mention it.
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Jones, as I had already stated my post was a bit off subject, so well done for picking that up. The original post topic had led to a (old) discussion about 2 crewing Electras. The single minded arrogance of a certain contributor is once again unleashed upon us all, which has prompted my previous post..
Hoping this clears up any misunderstanding......
Hoping this clears up any misunderstanding......
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Of course cost comes into it. Whoever suggested it doesn’t?
In today’s environment only those airlines that are constantly looking for innovative ways to cut costs without compromising on safety are going to survive.
Over the decades, crew numbers in the flight deck have been reducing and flight safety has been improving. Statistically flying is safer now than it has ever been and the majority of aircraft in the skies have only two pilots on board. Flight engineers, like navigators before them, will never buy into this argument. Who can blame them?
An aircraft is only as safe as its crew. Proper selection, training, and the continued exercising of good judgement, prioritisation and flight deck management are to me the fundamentals of flight safety, not the number of people in the flight deck.
Incidentally, I believe Atlantic do have a third person on board a lot of the time?
In today’s environment only those airlines that are constantly looking for innovative ways to cut costs without compromising on safety are going to survive.
Over the decades, crew numbers in the flight deck have been reducing and flight safety has been improving. Statistically flying is safer now than it has ever been and the majority of aircraft in the skies have only two pilots on board. Flight engineers, like navigators before them, will never buy into this argument. Who can blame them?
An aircraft is only as safe as its crew. Proper selection, training, and the continued exercising of good judgement, prioritisation and flight deck management are to me the fundamentals of flight safety, not the number of people in the flight deck.
Incidentally, I believe Atlantic do have a third person on board a lot of the time?
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Electra kid,
The third person on your Electra mate is no other than SBA, so take it steady kidda when the s### hits the fan one dark and stormy night, and voices from behind whisper " put that check list down son and remember what I TAUGHT Y............................."OUCH
RGDS
I Kid
The third person on your Electra mate is no other than SBA, so take it steady kidda when the s### hits the fan one dark and stormy night, and voices from behind whisper " put that check list down son and remember what I TAUGHT Y............................."OUCH
RGDS
I Kid
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Sorry folks but this has become so obscure that I really can't keep up with the train of thought. Is someone suggesting that the 440 should be 3 crew? If so why, and what relevance does it have to this debate.
I Kid, good to hear from you again.
I Kid, good to hear from you again.
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Ha, got a bit of spin going on this one! No, SBA not suggesting 2 crew types should be 3 crew, just giving an example of 'when sh!t happens, deviations from manufacturers intentions, specifications, or SOP's can be costly. Also highlighting what I previously termed your 'arrogance', or more accurately your general undermining of the third man, flt eng, whatever. What was his role on the Electra if the flask ran dry, or the coffee ran out? Please don't answer............
'It is not a situation I would ever like to be in, but I don't see that a third crew member would make any difference.
As for a windmill start without the services of an FE, I guess that it had never occurred to anyone at Atlantic that they might want a cup of coffee in the middle of this procedure!'
This attitude p!sses people off, or is that the intention? When you are not sounding off, you appear to be capable of logical debate.
Oh, before I go, Electra geezer, I quote:
'Over the decades, crew numbers in the flight deck have been reducing and flight safety has been improving. Statistically flying is safer now than it has ever been and the majority of aircraft in the skies have only two pilots on board. '
Over the decades, has not improvement in design, advancement in technology, and moderisaition of aircraft systems, all manifesting in the roll out of NEW TYPES, led to the demise of the flight eng, and made flying statistically safer?
Oh sorry, I forgot. After an extensive review some cbs were moved on the Electra, well that's alright then, I see what you mean ................!
I kid, 'parcheggio fatty!!'
'It is not a situation I would ever like to be in, but I don't see that a third crew member would make any difference.
As for a windmill start without the services of an FE, I guess that it had never occurred to anyone at Atlantic that they might want a cup of coffee in the middle of this procedure!'
This attitude p!sses people off, or is that the intention? When you are not sounding off, you appear to be capable of logical debate.
Oh, before I go, Electra geezer, I quote:
'Over the decades, crew numbers in the flight deck have been reducing and flight safety has been improving. Statistically flying is safer now than it has ever been and the majority of aircraft in the skies have only two pilots on board. '
Over the decades, has not improvement in design, advancement in technology, and moderisaition of aircraft systems, all manifesting in the roll out of NEW TYPES, led to the demise of the flight eng, and made flying statistically safer?
Oh sorry, I forgot. After an extensive review some cbs were moved on the Electra, well that's alright then, I see what you mean ................!
I kid, 'parcheggio fatty!!'
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Quick question. if an Electra snuck up behind another aircraft (jet, or large turboprop), could he be 'blown by this buddy' to coax the problematic engine into life? No hoses, just air.
See, nicely back on topic!!
See, nicely back on topic!!
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ThreeStable,
"When you are not sounding off you appear to be capable of logical debate"
When contributors to this forum question the legality of our operating practices (windmill start), the professionalism of our crews (the age issue) and imply a disregard for safety (two crew issue), I will defend our corner in any way I can. You obviously feel that I am over aggressive in the way I do this, so don't offer the provocation. If you have a pop at our pilots, I will have a pop back at you. Question. Who is watching your back?
Regarding the buddy start procedure, I don't know, but I believe there is a procedure such as this for the Herc.
"When you are not sounding off you appear to be capable of logical debate"
When contributors to this forum question the legality of our operating practices (windmill start), the professionalism of our crews (the age issue) and imply a disregard for safety (two crew issue), I will defend our corner in any way I can. You obviously feel that I am over aggressive in the way I do this, so don't offer the provocation. If you have a pop at our pilots, I will have a pop back at you. Question. Who is watching your back?
Regarding the buddy start procedure, I don't know, but I believe there is a procedure such as this for the Herc.
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I fail to see how be-littling the role of the many flight engs who subscribe to this website may be regarded as defending ones corner, or reasoned debate reference your company's position on certain issues. Still your perogative I suppose SBA. Your tone seems to have changed since this mornings post, why not pop in the Oak and have a couple of calmers.....
P.S. Fortunate enough to be working in an environment where back watching is not the number one priority.
Apologies to all for seemingly hijacking this thread, and getting involved in a head to head.
Enough. Made my point,going to enjoy the sun, with a pint or three.... SBA, I'll be the one with the burger and the thousand yard stare!! Don't forget your handbag..............
P.S. Fortunate enough to be working in an environment where back watching is not the number one priority.
Apologies to all for seemingly hijacking this thread, and getting involved in a head to head.
Enough. Made my point,going to enjoy the sun, with a pint or three.... SBA, I'll be the one with the burger and the thousand yard stare!! Don't forget your handbag..............
Last edited by threestable; 15th Jul 2002 at 15:01.
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Treestable, i say old bean, do you perhaps have a slight chip on your shoulder or as it seems to me a whole bag of chips, bwawawawaw.
My deepest regret I must bestow on you as it seems you are one of the discruntled 3rd seater that may have to view foreign shores with the prospect of gaining continuos employment. Hence your thousand yard stare.?
Cheers Now.
My deepest regret I must bestow on you as it seems you are one of the discruntled 3rd seater that may have to view foreign shores with the prospect of gaining continuos employment. Hence your thousand yard stare.?
Cheers Now.
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well it seems to me right, that ure all talkin bout something uve never had to do, yes the majority of turboprops can be buddy statrted, takes time and some power to do it,
guys right, go back to listening to ure airbands right.
guys right, go back to listening to ure airbands right.
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Chris Cargo - I don't understand your posting?
Three Stable - Some of the technology you describe has already made it onto the Electra in the form of GPS/BRNAV, vastly reducing the workload on the flightdeck. Let's face it, the electra is an easy plane to fly! One pilot flies (even might have an autopilot, if he's lucky), the other manages and deals with the problem. No problemo!
I Kid I - make mine a T bone, well done and plenty of mustard!
Three Stable - Some of the technology you describe has already made it onto the Electra in the form of GPS/BRNAV, vastly reducing the workload on the flightdeck. Let's face it, the electra is an easy plane to fly! One pilot flies (even might have an autopilot, if he's lucky), the other manages and deals with the problem. No problemo!
I Kid I - make mine a T bone, well done and plenty of mustard!
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company man
Might be worth while reading the personal profile of the person you are about to comment on before hitting the submit reply button. Not sure how many 3rd seaters hold an ATPL rating and if they do must be siting in the wrong seat
Might be worth while reading the personal profile of the person you are about to comment on before hitting the submit reply button. Not sure how many 3rd seaters hold an ATPL rating and if they do must be siting in the wrong seat
Last edited by Engineer; 16th Jul 2002 at 20:32.
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We also do a good Rump (ing) aswell as the famous 'T' Bone (ing) Chaps down at the GG !!. Anyway, I can remember attempting Windmill starts for all 4 on the Six at cvt, could never get the ******s started tho' on account '23' was too short for the tug to get any speed up !!!
Rgds
I Kid
Rgds
I Kid
Last edited by I Kid; 16th Jul 2002 at 08:58.
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Sounds like it to me as well 411a.
Who was it who "new best " on the Convairs flight test with the
CAA on board and transfered fuel in flight; when there was a warning in the flight manual not to ?
If I recall they ended up anealing the main spar, among other things ! Ooops !
I believe that there are a few ATPLS at Atlantique who hold FE license's as well, perhaps they shouldn't.
Who was it who "new best " on the Convairs flight test with the
CAA on board and transfered fuel in flight; when there was a warning in the flight manual not to ?
If I recall they ended up anealing the main spar, among other things ! Ooops !
I believe that there are a few ATPLS at Atlantique who hold FE license's as well, perhaps they shouldn't.
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If memory serves me right in the mid nineties there was only one PFE. The rest were wannabes seating in the third seat waiting for the opportunity to move into the right hand seat. The writing was on the wall then.
Saw a recent article in an aircraft mag about this company. One of the picture showed the electra captain who appeared to be in his early twenties. May be a good thing for PFEs to see this company go to two man crew
May be the wannabes made it into the left seat eventually after being given the stetson and six shooter
Saw a recent article in an aircraft mag about this company. One of the picture showed the electra captain who appeared to be in his early twenties. May be a good thing for PFEs to see this company go to two man crew
May be the wannabes made it into the left seat eventually after being given the stetson and six shooter
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Afraid you couldn't be more wrong Company Man. Yet again an Engineer triumphs!! Trouble with me is I do not like to forget my roots, and yes they were oily, then Brown, then Blue and then Green. My only concern here is sticking up for what I believe; of course always being open to discussion. Your contribution to this debate is what exactly?? Never mind, back to your 757 and get the kettle on............ Oh, and I would invest in a new speelchucker if I were you.
All the best
Smokie, not actually sure that you can transfer fuel in flight, not intentionally anyway. Most Ive seen is changing the flow out of a tank, not into it. Stand to be corrected though, should this be wrong.
All the best
Smokie, not actually sure that you can transfer fuel in flight, not intentionally anyway. Most Ive seen is changing the flow out of a tank, not into it. Stand to be corrected though, should this be wrong.
Last edited by threestable; 16th Jul 2002 at 13:49.