Atlas/AABO
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HyFly,
Consider another prospective
Atlas gets rid of AABO.
Junior Captains/ Senior FOs keep their position/upgrade to the left seat.
Furlough junior FOs, are kept on property.
That brings the overall cost of wages down, as compared to paying senior mainline FOs AND AABO Captains.
The Union finds the leverage that it needs to represent the combined Atlas/Polar workforce.
And if your replay is that you have worked for Atlas for X amount of years, look back how much that is cost to the mainline guys in delayed upgrades and Furloughs. AABO getting canned might not be fair, just like what AABO did was not.
I try to use this forum for an open discussion, but I am not going to be mocked by you 2 months before my last paycheck.
Consider another prospective
Atlas gets rid of AABO.
Junior Captains/ Senior FOs keep their position/upgrade to the left seat.
Furlough junior FOs, are kept on property.
That brings the overall cost of wages down, as compared to paying senior mainline FOs AND AABO Captains.
The Union finds the leverage that it needs to represent the combined Atlas/Polar workforce.
And if your replay is that you have worked for Atlas for X amount of years, look back how much that is cost to the mainline guys in delayed upgrades and Furloughs. AABO getting canned might not be fair, just like what AABO did was not.
I try to use this forum for an open discussion, but I am not going to be mocked by you 2 months before my last paycheck.
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hyfly
Hyfly,
Let's assume I was contracted to TNT, BA, KLM, or even DHL Europe and these carriers were facing a major contraction. Now, since I am a contract pilot working for a crew servicing company in Europe, what would my fate be?
Let's say I kept telling management I was cheaper would they listen?
BTW, your numbers in your previous are not accurate. Several Atlas pilots D/H on the companies equipment to Europe. Also, several times I've seen AABO pilots commercialing on BA and others from the states to Europe. Transportation costs are a push.
Again, flight hours are pulled from mainline (even senior to AABO) pilots and given to AABO to "prove" you're cheaper. When the main crewforce is stuck at 30-40 hours per month and being paid 62 hours you do the math. Answer the first paragraph honestly and you'll know why we feel the way we do!
bpp
Let's assume I was contracted to TNT, BA, KLM, or even DHL Europe and these carriers were facing a major contraction. Now, since I am a contract pilot working for a crew servicing company in Europe, what would my fate be?
Let's say I kept telling management I was cheaper would they listen?
BTW, your numbers in your previous are not accurate. Several Atlas pilots D/H on the companies equipment to Europe. Also, several times I've seen AABO pilots commercialing on BA and others from the states to Europe. Transportation costs are a push.
Again, flight hours are pulled from mainline (even senior to AABO) pilots and given to AABO to "prove" you're cheaper. When the main crewforce is stuck at 30-40 hours per month and being paid 62 hours you do the math. Answer the first paragraph honestly and you'll know why we feel the way we do!
bpp
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Hyfly,
As far as I understand it GSS (a majority UK owned company) dry-lease the aircraft from Atlas, which are then operated on the G-reg by UK/European pilots flying freight for a long-term UK customer (BAWC). "They even fly to the US". Yes, with freight for a UK customer.
As far as I understand it GSS (a majority UK owned company) dry-lease the aircraft from Atlas, which are then operated on the G-reg by UK/European pilots flying freight for a long-term UK customer (BAWC). "They even fly to the US". Yes, with freight for a UK customer.
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HyFly
Quote from Hyfly:
"- We (Atlas & AABO) operate several of the DHL (= Polar) flights."
What Polar/DHL flights are being operated by AABO? Didn't know AABO had a certificate.
BA
"- We (Atlas & AABO) operate several of the DHL (= Polar) flights."
What Polar/DHL flights are being operated by AABO? Didn't know AABO had a certificate.
BA
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All that being said.....
Is it true that US citizens/taxpayers are being put out of work and non US Citizens/taxpayers are employed before them out of seniority and doing US Military work or compensating for work done in lue of?
Gees if true, the IBT would at least send out a letter to be signed and sent to your house rep. like the stuff we get often from them. How does the IBT feel about this?
Doesn't Titan offer the same exact services that Atlas offeres and is nothing more than an "alter ego for Atlas/Polar?" Ultimately, the Europeans will be training Air Force One I guess. A TRTO also when we have unemployed people! Too many wrong things here!
I think too much time is being waisted on the Polar/Atlas/AABO issue when we wont have a leg to stand on when this foriegn opporater certificate becomes a real airline and Atlas will be part of a history book! We are missing the forest for a tree! The IBT and has no prower outside of the US. The Atlas Air Pilot Group is being cleverly circumvented!!!!
Is it true that US citizens/taxpayers are being put out of work and non US Citizens/taxpayers are employed before them out of seniority and doing US Military work or compensating for work done in lue of?
Gees if true, the IBT would at least send out a letter to be signed and sent to your house rep. like the stuff we get often from them. How does the IBT feel about this?
Doesn't Titan offer the same exact services that Atlas offeres and is nothing more than an "alter ego for Atlas/Polar?" Ultimately, the Europeans will be training Air Force One I guess. A TRTO also when we have unemployed people! Too many wrong things here!
I think too much time is being waisted on the Polar/Atlas/AABO issue when we wont have a leg to stand on when this foriegn opporater certificate becomes a real airline and Atlas will be part of a history book! We are missing the forest for a tree! The IBT and has no prower outside of the US. The Atlas Air Pilot Group is being cleverly circumvented!!!!
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AABO
Pharang_Baa
I have to guess that you are not an American from your moniker.
However you do still have a spell check on your computer do you not?
Try a little proof read before the post maybe, it couldn’t hurt.
HyFly,
The point that I believe P.B. is trying to make here is:
There have just been over 100 American crews put out on the street.
Non-American crews are flying American military flights including bringing home dead American soldiers. This is also on American registered aircraft, for an American Company.
This does not even take into account the DOH issue here.
This is wrong, just plain as that. It is immoral, and un-just.
Now on to the Titan debacle:
Titan has been set up to CYA so to speak for the Company.
This is a way to DRY lease an airframe that they do not have a customer for.
It costs money for the a/c to sit, and it does not make money if it is not flying.
If you think this is a ploy to set up a crew leasing company, you are giving these guys more credit than they deserve.
200's Better to lease them than to park them. (Of course if Michael were still here he would chop them rather than have the competition operate them).
400’s Same as above, if you do not have a customer for the a/c and you can lease it to someone that does. It does not take a rocket scientist here.
-8’s Or as some say the 800’s, The Company has 12 ordered with the option on 10 more.
If you don’t have a customer, need I continue?
Don’t read too much into this Titan thing, this is not a screw the mainline guys thing here, in my opinion.
FR8
I have to guess that you are not an American from your moniker.
However you do still have a spell check on your computer do you not?
Try a little proof read before the post maybe, it couldn’t hurt.
HyFly,
The point that I believe P.B. is trying to make here is:
There have just been over 100 American crews put out on the street.
Non-American crews are flying American military flights including bringing home dead American soldiers. This is also on American registered aircraft, for an American Company.
This does not even take into account the DOH issue here.
This is wrong, just plain as that. It is immoral, and un-just.
Now on to the Titan debacle:
Titan has been set up to CYA so to speak for the Company.
This is a way to DRY lease an airframe that they do not have a customer for.
It costs money for the a/c to sit, and it does not make money if it is not flying.
If you think this is a ploy to set up a crew leasing company, you are giving these guys more credit than they deserve.
200's Better to lease them than to park them. (Of course if Michael were still here he would chop them rather than have the competition operate them).
400’s Same as above, if you do not have a customer for the a/c and you can lease it to someone that does. It does not take a rocket scientist here.
-8’s Or as some say the 800’s, The Company has 12 ordered with the option on 10 more.
If you don’t have a customer, need I continue?
Don’t read too much into this Titan thing, this is not a screw the mainline guys thing here, in my opinion.
FR8
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bpp & best angle
BPP:
sorry, but again an incorrect fact:
All AABO are NOT on contract, they are employees of one of the Atlas companies.
Therefore your scenario starts already with an incorrect assumption and is therefore void.
Regarding the figures:
Of course are AABO crewmembers are as well flying all around the world on commercial flights - there is no difference as you know.
However, to get some compareable figures a "standarized" pattern has to be assumed and figures taken which are as close as possible to the real ones.
If we compare the extremes there will be the fact that sometimes the figures are just the other way round - but that would not be on a standard pattern.
And if you look closely to the figures and remarks you will see that I took only 1 commercial long haul Business Class flight into account, even as there are always 2 crossings US-Europe or v.v.
And as you know, there are costs for such flights ranging from somewhere USD 1.500,- to 3.500,-.
Skualo:
- fact 1: We at AABO got a job offered - we didn't set up AACS/AABO
- fact 2: We got the job offered as too few of Atlas US crewmembers accepted the offer to move to STN
- fact 3: If you would have moved to STN - the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this was offered - you could be in the left seat for 9 years now.
==> Don't bash on the individual at AABO
==> Don't make the individual at AABO responsible for your decision
Best Angle:
It's hard to have decent discussion with guys posting such useless comments.
As everybody knows AABO does have no certificate, but the Atlas US and AABO crewmembers are flying Polar flights.
And it was not the point who has a certificate, there was something different.
Maybe you read the point again.
sorry, but again an incorrect fact:
All AABO are NOT on contract, they are employees of one of the Atlas companies.
Therefore your scenario starts already with an incorrect assumption and is therefore void.
Regarding the figures:
Of course are AABO crewmembers are as well flying all around the world on commercial flights - there is no difference as you know.
However, to get some compareable figures a "standarized" pattern has to be assumed and figures taken which are as close as possible to the real ones.
If we compare the extremes there will be the fact that sometimes the figures are just the other way round - but that would not be on a standard pattern.
And if you look closely to the figures and remarks you will see that I took only 1 commercial long haul Business Class flight into account, even as there are always 2 crossings US-Europe or v.v.
And as you know, there are costs for such flights ranging from somewhere USD 1.500,- to 3.500,-.
Skualo:
- fact 1: We at AABO got a job offered - we didn't set up AACS/AABO
- fact 2: We got the job offered as too few of Atlas US crewmembers accepted the offer to move to STN
- fact 3: If you would have moved to STN - the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this was offered - you could be in the left seat for 9 years now.
==> Don't bash on the individual at AABO
==> Don't make the individual at AABO responsible for your decision
Best Angle:
It's hard to have decent discussion with guys posting such useless comments.
As everybody knows AABO does have no certificate, but the Atlas US and AABO crewmembers are flying Polar flights.
And it was not the point who has a certificate, there was something different.
Maybe you read the point again.
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Hyfly
Just getting it right. You present AABO as if it were a seperate airline when, in fact, AACS/AABO is simply a group of non-union crewmembers on the Atlas certificate. Nothing more. AABO is not a stand alone entity. It cannot operate aircraft on it's own.
As to the Polar/DHL flights, I ask because I do not see any operated by Atlas any more. Polar is now operating the ILN-ANC-HKG flight.
As to the Polar/DHL flights, I ask because I do not see any operated by Atlas any more. Polar is now operating the ILN-ANC-HKG flight.
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Originally Posted by hyfly
- fact 1: We at AABO got a job offered - we didn't set up AACS/AABO
- fact 2: We got the job offered as too few of Atlas US crewmembers accepted the offer to move to STN
- fact 3: If you would have moved to STN - the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this was offered - you could be in the left seat for 9 years now.
- fact 2: We got the job offered as too few of Atlas US crewmembers accepted the offer to move to STN
- fact 3: If you would have moved to STN - the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this was offered - you could be in the left seat for 9 years now.
2. Did you ever ask yourself why there were too few? Only 19 out of 600+ crew members taking the company up on the STN non union, non inline seniority upgrades says a lot to me and obviously most of the Atlas mainline guys recognized what the company's true effort was on that.
3. See answer 2 again. Few more took the offer the subsequent times and then complained when their was yet another tier of seniority created after new company interpretations. That was latter resolved to only two tiers AACS and Mainline.
After reviewing your previous postings on TOS between us, I noted you did a very good job of cherry picking answers and misconceptions to pump up your numbers for your argument. That is to be expected.
While doing so, you confirmed how the company has now used the Atlas CBA (in which AACS helped in minimizing by their creation/leverage through mainline 1 to 1 furloughs to AACS new hires) to bring your previous lucrative contract down to what it is now. How was it stated by Mr. C. "if we can't get the costs down in STN (AACS) we will have to relocate the STN base elsewhere more cost effective in Europe. BTW, that would negate the STN Letter Of agreement with the Union putting you (AACS/AABO) in as new hire seniority and pay." Took no time at all for all but about 5 (the protected cross overs) to sign that new AACS contract after hearing that. Funny how all of AACS/AABO wants to be friends until coming into parity with ill gotten seniority/pay/upgrades is mentioned somewhere-somehow. Then the true colors of original intent come blazing forth.
Now the company ties your contract TOS to the timing of the Atlas mainline one. That way, they don't give you too much now that they don't need you that much. You don't get anything new until we do.
So in the process of sticking it to the Mainline guys with ill gotten upgrades and past lucrative pay, you have unexpectantly stuck it to yourselves. You will find little sympathy on that except among your ilk. Most of your kind got the upgrade, flight time, the first TOS lucrative pay and left knowing what they were doing. Leaving for that next stable expat job somewhere else that they were just newly qualified for as soon as they could. AABO is now down to less than 50. I guess there are those that just can't get a job elsewhere in a legit manner despite seeing the bridge is out down the road. Guess you will just have to find another startup non union crew leasing place looking for non union replacement workers and convince them of your past arguments about what good guys you are. There are always some companies looking for that kind somewhere.
I don't think there will be many shedding tears upon AABO's departure considering the Atlas numbers that had been furloughed in past years and present while you boys kept moving along protected by the warden on so many levels.
Now there is a more labor friendly government in place compared to the last 9 years. Exporting of jobs while furloughing employees in the US seems to be a bad thing now. That took long enough. So while the company tries getting more government contracts, the AACS/AABO issue will be thrown into congresses face at every opportunity and soon the company may realize that AABO is more expensive than they are worth. With 1.4 million collective Teamster votes vs. the past 50K ALPA votes (at best when they felt like supporting us) we might get their attention now. It is an agenda item for the government and Teamsters.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 15th Mar 2009 at 20:46.
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Hyfly
Bravo!!
Eurobouffon, I will give you an A- for your effort presenting your facts, You have learned well from your master number 1 (Est-ce que tu me comprends?) I am sure your presentation has been to Purchase a few times, and that is one of the reasons why you are still employed.
For now I will only debate a few of your non-sense points:
You forgot to mention the fact that for the last 5 years the exchange rate between GBP vs USD fluctuated between 1.8 to 2.0, and not until December 2008 it came down to the 1.4 range.
This means that a “Senior 8 year” ABBO Captain with a 7,336.41 a month salary (thanks for providing the exact figure) makes 88036.92 GBP a year at an average of 1.9 exchange rate he made at least for the last 5 years US167,270.48
The difference between Atlas-AABO is equal to US 44,274.20 a year!!!
Based only on that amount, AABO profit sharing is higher than Atlas!!!
a profit that could not have happened with 40 pilots, and NO AIRCRAFT.
There are not 8 year Captains at Atlas, that has been extinct specie(thanks to you), therefore your comparison is pointless.
Your comment “AABO paid a lot for Atlas profit sharing is quite the opposite”
As mentioned before on previous posts, AABO has no airplanes, therefore no 121 certificate(you might not even know what that means) how the heck can you jumpseat on US carriers as several of you do. Do you tell the Captain, or gate agent you work for Atlas, or AABO? how convenient!!
One more question for you:
Imagine you were at Carrefour standing in line just about to pay, and 40 persons jumped in front of you, and by the time you get to the cashier you hear: "sorry we are closed" would you be upset?
That is a true story at Atlas!!
Next time, please also show 8 year FO pay so that I can do your math again, and remember that when things go bad with Foreign Carriers the first to GO are the expats!! consider yourself lucky to still have a job.
Au revoir
Bravo!!
Eurobouffon, I will give you an A- for your effort presenting your facts, You have learned well from your master number 1 (Est-ce que tu me comprends?) I am sure your presentation has been to Purchase a few times, and that is one of the reasons why you are still employed.
For now I will only debate a few of your non-sense points:
You forgot to mention the fact that for the last 5 years the exchange rate between GBP vs USD fluctuated between 1.8 to 2.0, and not until December 2008 it came down to the 1.4 range.
This means that a “Senior 8 year” ABBO Captain with a 7,336.41 a month salary (thanks for providing the exact figure) makes 88036.92 GBP a year at an average of 1.9 exchange rate he made at least for the last 5 years US167,270.48
The difference between Atlas-AABO is equal to US 44,274.20 a year!!!
Based only on that amount, AABO profit sharing is higher than Atlas!!!
a profit that could not have happened with 40 pilots, and NO AIRCRAFT.
There are not 8 year Captains at Atlas, that has been extinct specie(thanks to you), therefore your comparison is pointless.
Your comment “AABO paid a lot for Atlas profit sharing is quite the opposite”
As mentioned before on previous posts, AABO has no airplanes, therefore no 121 certificate(you might not even know what that means) how the heck can you jumpseat on US carriers as several of you do. Do you tell the Captain, or gate agent you work for Atlas, or AABO? how convenient!!
One more question for you:
Imagine you were at Carrefour standing in line just about to pay, and 40 persons jumped in front of you, and by the time you get to the cashier you hear: "sorry we are closed" would you be upset?
That is a true story at Atlas!!
Next time, please also show 8 year FO pay so that I can do your math again, and remember that when things go bad with Foreign Carriers the first to GO are the expats!! consider yourself lucky to still have a job.
Au revoir
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Originally Posted by Fr8Dog
Now on to the Titan debacle:
Titan has been set up to CYA so to speak for the Company.
This is a way to DRY lease an airframe that they do not have a customer for.
It costs money for the a/c to sit, and it does not make money if it is not flying.
If you think this is a ploy to set up a crew leasing company, you are giving these guys more credit than they deserve.
Titan has been set up to CYA so to speak for the Company.
This is a way to DRY lease an airframe that they do not have a customer for.
It costs money for the a/c to sit, and it does not make money if it is not flying.
If you think this is a ploy to set up a crew leasing company, you are giving these guys more credit than they deserve.
Evaluate Our Services
Our outstanding aircraft outsourcing solutions, combined with our industry-leading expertise in freighter assets and services, enables our customers to flexibly and quickly ramp up their aviation operations without having to invest in expensive new aircraft.
By turning to Titan Aviation Leasing, our customers can effectively expand their capacity and capitalize on the growing demand for efficient, leading-edge commercial aircraft with superior operating economics.
Our global platform of aviation offerings - and the size, scale and industry expertise to make it all possible - guarantees that our customers can focus on their core competencies and generate greater value for their customers.
Our outstanding leasing solutions are backed by industry-leading expertise and freighter-related
value-added services:
Network management and Consultancy: schedule analysis, schedule management, route- and traffic-rights management. State-of-the-art Global Control Center: 24-hour customer service including customer-specific service web sites, AOG and parts support, IT support, central crew scheduling and coordination, sales and operations support around the world. Fuel: procurement and administration, comprehensive fuel management program aimed at reducing customer fuel expense. Ground operations support, maintenance management and crew services Handling services, including a joint venture with AACT Co. Ltd., to operate a new, strategically located cargo warehouse at Incheon International Airport in South Korea. Boeing 747 crew training
Our outstanding aircraft outsourcing solutions, combined with our industry-leading expertise in freighter assets and services, enables our customers to flexibly and quickly ramp up their aviation operations without having to invest in expensive new aircraft.
By turning to Titan Aviation Leasing, our customers can effectively expand their capacity and capitalize on the growing demand for efficient, leading-edge commercial aircraft with superior operating economics.
Our global platform of aviation offerings - and the size, scale and industry expertise to make it all possible - guarantees that our customers can focus on their core competencies and generate greater value for their customers.
Our outstanding leasing solutions are backed by industry-leading expertise and freighter-related
value-added services:
Network management and Consultancy: schedule analysis, schedule management, route- and traffic-rights management. State-of-the-art Global Control Center: 24-hour customer service including customer-specific service web sites, AOG and parts support, IT support, central crew scheduling and coordination, sales and operations support around the world. Fuel: procurement and administration, comprehensive fuel management program aimed at reducing customer fuel expense. Ground operations support, maintenance management and crew services Handling services, including a joint venture with AACT Co. Ltd., to operate a new, strategically located cargo warehouse at Incheon International Airport in South Korea. Boeing 747 crew training
Another thing to scope in....
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I say again. Please shut down this thread. You Atlas pilots might get your wish. No foreign pilots flying "our" freight. You all would be out of a job. Cant you see the hypocrisy in your arguments? STFU!!!!
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The AACT terminal in Incheon that they talk about for Titan leasing is the exact same terminal that the Polar side has been using since its inception.
And to think that they're reducing our flights and no more overnights there. Yep, Titan Leasing had better be watched close. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
And to think that they're reducing our flights and no more overnights there. Yep, Titan Leasing had better be watched close. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
SALE
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I say again. Please shut down this thread. You Atlas pilots might get your wish. No foreign pilots flying "our" freight. You all would be out of a job. Cant you see the hypocrisy in your arguments? STFU!!!!
The issue is the structure of AABO and its being protected while the mainline group faces a large furlough, aggravated by past management’s blatant use of it as a threat to the union.
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So in the process of sticking it to the Mainline guys with ill gotten upgrades and past lucrative pay, you have unexpectantly stuck it to yourselves. You will find little sympathy on that except among your ilk. Most of your kind got the upgrade, flight time, the first TOS lucrative pay and left knowing what they were doing
Pot meet Kettle
I wish to emphasize that my finding on the merits of this case was that Atlas’ flying of Polar’s business was the direct cause of all the furloughs and downgrades at issue here
Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.
Impartial Chairman
Pot meet Kettle
I wish to emphasize that my finding on the merits of this case was that Atlas’ flying of Polar’s business was the direct cause of all the furloughs and downgrades at issue here
Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.
Impartial Chairman