Atlas/AABO
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I've actually heard of those $16-18k per hour rates from more than one source. Just don't know if they are the same rumors repeating themselves or not. The loads don't seem to be over 80 tons so far on the flights I have done. That may change with the Afghanistan push.
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Dunno where you get that figure. .
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Incredible!!!
If the eurot
contractors(AABO) are a separate animal, then that means they should take the hit with FURLOUGHS, AND DOWNGRADES!! too. If we go by DOH they ALL need to be DOWNGRADED!!!
We continue to have a union "leadership" that refuses to put a halt to this masacre. Yes we changed unions, but at the end of the day the 3 stooges are back at it again. The end result: same mafia different name. Whatever happened to electing new fresh faces?
Pathetic
AABO+Teamsters=VERY unhappy POLAR, ATLAS Pilots
If the eurot
contractors(AABO) are a separate animal, then that means they should take the hit with FURLOUGHS, AND DOWNGRADES!! too. If we go by DOH they ALL need to be DOWNGRADED!!!We continue to have a union "leadership" that refuses to put a halt to this masacre. Yes we changed unions, but at the end of the day the 3 stooges are back at it again. The end result: same mafia different name. Whatever happened to electing new fresh faces?
Pathetic
AABO+Teamsters=VERY unhappy POLAR, ATLAS Pilots
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Polax52 is taking a break from PPRuNe. Anyone else who insists on using the "scab" word will also be taking a break.
This is the second and last warning.
This is the second and last warning.
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To assume that any union can force a management into changing terms of a legally binding document unless they want to is unrealistic.
One should suspect that given the numerous rewrites of bids that have taken place in the past, that what is published is not fact until it happens, if it is not rebid sooner.
Perhaps it would be wise to wait a few days to see what really happens and not run off a cliff. One must also remember that during contract negotiations, many things are said to guage how foolishly the other side will react.
It's always better to wait and keep ones powder dry. Right now, the perimeter is being prodded for weaknesses.
Now is the time to focus on your negotiations and do things that give your team the maximum leverage. Patience is the watchword.
One should suspect that given the numerous rewrites of bids that have taken place in the past, that what is published is not fact until it happens, if it is not rebid sooner.
Perhaps it would be wise to wait a few days to see what really happens and not run off a cliff. One must also remember that during contract negotiations, many things are said to guage how foolishly the other side will react.
It's always better to wait and keep ones powder dry. Right now, the perimeter is being prodded for weaknesses.
Now is the time to focus on your negotiations and do things that give your team the maximum leverage. Patience is the watchword.
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Well, this is going to get interesting . . . .
With the new bid awards, if I looked at it correctly, it's going to kick people all the way down to an August of 2002 hire date. The projected person is scheduled to take the walk in July.
Sorry to those of you who may be affected.
Man I don't wish this sh*t on anybody.
With the new bid awards, if I looked at it correctly, it's going to kick people all the way down to an August of 2002 hire date. The projected person is scheduled to take the walk in July.
Sorry to those of you who may be affected.
Man I don't wish this sh*t on anybody.
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Curious thing is, "how many companies give you 4 months of notice before they cut you?" Past experience at other carriers that employed me was at best thirty days notice.
Makes me curious the ultimate agenda behind such notifications, especially noting past extended furlough notifications that didn't happen at Atlas.
On a second front. This may not be a time for Atlas management to start screwing with too many furloughs of US citizens when Atlas is exporting jobs to offshore crew leasing companies such as AABO. Such sub-companies that suffer no losses and only downgrades at best at a higher cost per crewmember comparatively to the same Atlas crewmembers under the same holding company. Could bite them in the posterior when trolling for government AMC contracts and such with the new US administration touting non-outsourcing of US jobs. Might be something for you guys to think about writing to your congressional reps about.
Lets hope our collective efforts under such will convince the company of their past wrongs on that front. Failing that, I'm sure there are alternatives allowed us if you think about it.
Makes me curious the ultimate agenda behind such notifications, especially noting past extended furlough notifications that didn't happen at Atlas.
On a second front. This may not be a time for Atlas management to start screwing with too many furloughs of US citizens when Atlas is exporting jobs to offshore crew leasing companies such as AABO. Such sub-companies that suffer no losses and only downgrades at best at a higher cost per crewmember comparatively to the same Atlas crewmembers under the same holding company. Could bite them in the posterior when trolling for government AMC contracts and such with the new US administration touting non-outsourcing of US jobs. Might be something for you guys to think about writing to your congressional reps about.
Lets hope our collective efforts under such will convince the company of their past wrongs on that front. Failing that, I'm sure there are alternatives allowed us if you think about it.
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It seems like the only way the ABBOs are going to be out of the picture forever is when award 2020-Rev.5 comes out, unless EVERYONE affected start voicing their discontent to management, union, and Congress
enough is enough!!
enough is enough!!
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Its odd that you at Atlas are complaining about "foreign" pilots taking "your" jobs. Look at what you Atlas pilots do. You are all “foreign” pilots flying Emirates Freight or QANTAS Freight or DHL freight................. I think you better stop complaining about AABO. You ALL are foreign pilots flying someone else’s freight. All this thread is doing is bringing negative attention upon Atlas.
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Don't have a problem with foreign pilots. We have a lot at Atlas mainline right now. It's when they created an offshore crew leasing entity (outside union legal protections at that time) strictly to help bust an existing union I have a problem with them. Luckily AABO is only a remnant or thorn in the side that exists now as a remaining piece of leverage for management. Maybe the remaining AABO (@50) will no longer be a factor if we work on it some more. It's just a little more salt in the wound when furloughs and downgrades hit mainline guys and AABO recieves no equitable amount of adjustment to their ranks compared to the mainline. Says a lot about their purpose.
As to the carriers you pointed out, there is no one carrier hauling that freight with the exception to Qantas cargo. Qantas cargo is actually not part of Qantas as I understand it and uses Atlas and Qantas to do it.
As to the carriers you pointed out, there is no one carrier hauling that freight with the exception to Qantas cargo. Qantas cargo is actually not part of Qantas as I understand it and uses Atlas and Qantas to do it.
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Hey gang
Carriers use outsourcing as a cheap way to carry excess cargo. Do you think Qantas uses Atlas because they can do it cheaper? Most of the freight is excess cargo and the company figures it is cheaper to outsource rather than buying or converting aircraft for an operation that may last a short time.
That is a far different than union busting.
Carriers use outsourcing as a cheap way to carry excess cargo. Do you think Qantas uses Atlas because they can do it cheaper? Most of the freight is excess cargo and the company figures it is cheaper to outsource rather than buying or converting aircraft for an operation that may last a short time.
That is a far different than union busting.
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Well Said
Well Said Nitty-Gritty
I DO NOT have a problem with the AABOs, or any other foreign pilot. I DO have a problem seeing fellow senior Atlas mainline pilots being downgraded, while "senior" 8 year AABOs get to keep their their seats. All because somebody refuses to put the europilots at the VERY LEAST by DOH!!!!! oh not to mention the fact that for the last several years they made over 40% more than VERY senior Atlas pilots.
What adds to the mess is seeing a few AABO downgrades, and ZERO furloughs.
I hope you get it now MR messenger.
If Atlas flies for other airlines it is because is COST EFFECTIVE for them.
AABO is not cost effective for Atlas. 40 pilots making Sterling, and a fully staffed office in STN is NOT COST EFFECTIVE!!
I DO NOT have a problem with the AABOs, or any other foreign pilot. I DO have a problem seeing fellow senior Atlas mainline pilots being downgraded, while "senior" 8 year AABOs get to keep their their seats. All because somebody refuses to put the europilots at the VERY LEAST by DOH!!!!! oh not to mention the fact that for the last several years they made over 40% more than VERY senior Atlas pilots.
What adds to the mess is seeing a few AABO downgrades, and ZERO furloughs.
I hope you get it now MR messenger.
If Atlas flies for other airlines it is because is COST EFFECTIVE for them.
AABO is not cost effective for Atlas. 40 pilots making Sterling, and a fully staffed office in STN is NOT COST EFFECTIVE!!
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AABO
AABO pilots are salaried employees, therefore, Atlas tries to fly them 100 hours per month for the salary. I was told it's equivalent to $8500 US.
Almost all of them work on X days and make more. The problem is every Atlas mainline guy, as a result of AABO, flies 30-40 hours per month just to feed AABO 100 hours.
Now AABO has about 50 pilots (INCLUDING THOSE THAT JUMP SENIORITY) flying 100 hours per month while Atlas furloughs. Get rid of AABO and transfer the flying back to mainline and you bring back 2 US taxpayers for every 1 AABO pilot, that restores about 100 pilots jobs.
bpp
Almost all of them work on X days and make more. The problem is every Atlas mainline guy, as a result of AABO, flies 30-40 hours per month just to feed AABO 100 hours.
Now AABO has about 50 pilots (INCLUDING THOSE THAT JUMP SENIORITY) flying 100 hours per month while Atlas furloughs. Get rid of AABO and transfer the flying back to mainline and you bring back 2 US taxpayers for every 1 AABO pilot, that restores about 100 pilots jobs.
bpp
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Just a little ying - yang to life on this subject.
While AABO was and continues to be leverage against the Atlas mainline union crews, the same has been done to them. Most have a hard time caring considering AABO's original purpose against them. Soon after the Atlas mainline guys signed their union contract, Mr. C used the Atlas mainline guys as leverage against his AABO creation to put them in check somewhat. Proffered a new reduced contract to AABO or he would have to re evaluate AABO's cost effectiveness by moving the base elsewhere in Europe. Thus negating the STN Union/Company letter of agreement on AABO that kept them in their remaining envious positions. Leaving them to either no job or a job at the bottom of Atlas mainline should that happen.
Needless to say, they took the reduced contract offered by Mr. C rather than end up at the bottom vs. their ill gotten gained positions at the expense of many mainline guys. The only ones that didn't were the Atlas cross overs that jumped at the union busting upgrades at AABO (originally 19 crossed over out of 600+ Atlas guys). They have rights of seniority at mainline and AABO. Real pieces of work they are.
While AABO was and continues to be leverage against the Atlas mainline union crews, the same has been done to them. Most have a hard time caring considering AABO's original purpose against them. Soon after the Atlas mainline guys signed their union contract, Mr. C used the Atlas mainline guys as leverage against his AABO creation to put them in check somewhat. Proffered a new reduced contract to AABO or he would have to re evaluate AABO's cost effectiveness by moving the base elsewhere in Europe. Thus negating the STN Union/Company letter of agreement on AABO that kept them in their remaining envious positions. Leaving them to either no job or a job at the bottom of Atlas mainline should that happen.
Needless to say, they took the reduced contract offered by Mr. C rather than end up at the bottom vs. their ill gotten gained positions at the expense of many mainline guys. The only ones that didn't were the Atlas cross overs that jumped at the union busting upgrades at AABO (originally 19 crossed over out of 600+ Atlas guys). They have rights of seniority at mainline and AABO. Real pieces of work they are.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 12th Mar 2009 at 07:18.
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Ya think
Is it not a little strange that the number of pilots and engineers furloughed at Atlas is about the same number of Polar guys and gals that will be merged into the fold?
Just a little observation on my part. O.K. let me have it!
FR8
Yea Spanky, you tell um, right arm!
Just a little observation on my part. O.K. let me have it!
FR8
Yea Spanky, you tell um, right arm!
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Nah. I am not going to let you have it. It is a good observation but I doubt that the company is conspiring here. They are not that smart and I don't think the classics will coem abck. Too costly to fly. However, I imagine that Titan may be the recipient of largess in AAWWH's desire to screw you guys. Watch your backside!
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drzito (and others) - get the facts straight
If you don’t have any other arguments against AABO than posting incorrect facts then you better be quiet - maybe you collect first some correct infomation before making any posts here.
Repeating (intenional?) wrong facts doesn’t make them more correct – it’s just an attack on your own intelligence.
Here some facts to get some posts straight:
1. Compensation:
Atlas Captain 8 yr: USD 162,31/hr x 62 hrs (guarantee) = USD 10.063,22
Overtime after 62 hrs per month
AABO Captain 8 yr: GBP 7.336,41 x 1,3971 (GBP-USD) = USD 10.249,69
Hours are limited by FARs only
2. Comparison Working days – efficiency (both work 17 days/month)
Atlas US:
- day 1: commercial/deadhead US-Europe, rest in hotel
- day 2: start of actual operating duty
--->
- day 16: operating duty ends in Europe
- day 17: commercial/deadhead Europe-US
AABO:
- day 1: positioning from STN, actual operating duty starts
--->
- day 17: operating duty ends, followed by positioning back to STN
Result for a 17 day pattern:
Atlas US per month:
- 15 days effective duty
- 2 more hotel nights
- 1-2 commercial long-haul Business Class flights (deadhead considered)
- 2 US continental flights to/from homebase airport
AABO per month:
- 17 days effective duty
- 2 Ryanair flights to/from STN
Result for a 12 days ON – 13 days OFF – 5 days (followed by more days in the next month) pattern:
Atlas US:
- 14 days effective duty
- 3 more hotel nights
- 2-3 commercial long-haul Business Class flights (deadhead considered) US-Europe-US
- 3 US continental flights to/from homebase airport
AABO:
- 17 days effective duty
- 3 Ryanair trips to/from STN
Costs:
- Atlas US Captain per day: USD 10.063,22 : 17 = USD 591,95
- AABO Captain per day: USD 10.249,69 : 17 = USD 602,92
- Per diem/day: USD 56,40
- Hotel/night: USD 100,-
- Long-haul Business Class Flight: USD 2.500,- one way (estimated)
- US continental flight within US: USD 300,- one way (estimated)
- Ryanair flight within Europe: USD 200,- (average as per max SPP allowance list)
Monthly costs for an Atlas US Captain on a 17 day trip:
- Compensation: USD 10.063,22
- 2 travel days: 2 x USD 591,95 = USD 1.183,90
- 2 travel days per diem: 2 x USD 56,40 = USD 112,80
- 2 hotel nights: 2 x USD 100,- = USD 200,-
- 1 long-haul Business Class flight: USD 2.500,-
- 2 continental US flights: 2 x USD 300,- = USD 600,-
Total = USD 14.656,92 (only one long-haul Business Class
flight considered !)
Monthly costs for an AABO Captain on a 17 day trip:
- Compensation: USD 10.249,69
- 2 Ryanair flights: 2 x USD 200,- = USD 400,-
Total = USD 10.649,69
DIFFERENCE: USD 4.010,23 per month to the advantage of AABO x 45
= USD 180.000,-/month = USD 2.200.000,-/year
Please do your own calculation for the different pattern length – it will be an even higher number.
Result:
- 3 AABO Captains have the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains.
- 3 AABO Captains can fly + 300 hrs per month for the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains, who can fly only 124 hrs for these costs.
- AABO paid quite a lot of your profit sharing bonus.
- If Atlas US crewmembers can do the same hours and days for the same price then you should and management may talk about AABO.
3. Comparison Vacation days
- Atlas US: 14 days/year, NO pro-ration of days off
- AABO: 28 days/year, WITH pro-ration of days off
= Same number of vacation and working days per year
4. Other details:
Atlas US crewmembers work 17 days per month since February 2006.
AABO crewmembers
- worked 18 days per month until 2009 for the same salary,
- no premium pay for the first 3 overtime days until 2009,
- reduced annual longetivity pay for the last 3 years
STN office is doing administration for
- all STN based crewmembers (Atlas & AABO) and
- all European based Atlas and Polar ground staff.
5. Some finals:
Question 1:
Where are your comments about GSS and your demand that GSS must go?
- They operate 3 x 400’s, soon 3 more -8's, all owned by Atlas, operated by European pilots.
- This would/could be 60 less furloughs at Atlas.
- And they even operate into the US!
Question 2:
Why don’t you complain that there are no furloughs/downgrades at Polar, as there are several junior to AABO and should/will be merged with Atlas (soon)?
- We (Atlas & AABO) operate several of the DHL (= Polar) flights.
Question 3:
No other solution/discussion regarding the furloughs than bashing on AABO ?
- What’s about a proposal from the Union or anybody else for a solution to minimize the furloughs or one which would not require them at all, such as everybody works 80%?
Comment about Titan:
- Maybe not a bad idea to move all AABO crewmember to Titan and hire more international crewmembers there to operate a bunch of the -400s and even the 747-8’s under a different/new certificate.
- Would then be much easier to be accepted by and operate several aircraft for some European and other operators, who can’t/don’t want to make business with an US company to fly their freight – see GSS.
- And as the above figures show it will result in a higher profit for AAWH as less crewmembers are required to do the same.
- Thank’s for the idea, we will go for it and will propose it at the proper places – maybe you consider to get your JAR licence soon.
Repeating (intenional?) wrong facts doesn’t make them more correct – it’s just an attack on your own intelligence.
Here some facts to get some posts straight:
1. Compensation:
Atlas Captain 8 yr: USD 162,31/hr x 62 hrs (guarantee) = USD 10.063,22
Overtime after 62 hrs per month
AABO Captain 8 yr: GBP 7.336,41 x 1,3971 (GBP-USD) = USD 10.249,69
Hours are limited by FARs only
2. Comparison Working days – efficiency (both work 17 days/month)
Atlas US:
- day 1: commercial/deadhead US-Europe, rest in hotel
- day 2: start of actual operating duty
--->
- day 16: operating duty ends in Europe
- day 17: commercial/deadhead Europe-US
AABO:
- day 1: positioning from STN, actual operating duty starts
--->
- day 17: operating duty ends, followed by positioning back to STN
Result for a 17 day pattern:
Atlas US per month:
- 15 days effective duty
- 2 more hotel nights
- 1-2 commercial long-haul Business Class flights (deadhead considered)
- 2 US continental flights to/from homebase airport
AABO per month:
- 17 days effective duty
- 2 Ryanair flights to/from STN
Result for a 12 days ON – 13 days OFF – 5 days (followed by more days in the next month) pattern:
Atlas US:
- 14 days effective duty
- 3 more hotel nights
- 2-3 commercial long-haul Business Class flights (deadhead considered) US-Europe-US
- 3 US continental flights to/from homebase airport
AABO:
- 17 days effective duty
- 3 Ryanair trips to/from STN
Costs:
- Atlas US Captain per day: USD 10.063,22 : 17 = USD 591,95
- AABO Captain per day: USD 10.249,69 : 17 = USD 602,92
- Per diem/day: USD 56,40
- Hotel/night: USD 100,-
- Long-haul Business Class Flight: USD 2.500,- one way (estimated)
- US continental flight within US: USD 300,- one way (estimated)
- Ryanair flight within Europe: USD 200,- (average as per max SPP allowance list)
Monthly costs for an Atlas US Captain on a 17 day trip:
- Compensation: USD 10.063,22
- 2 travel days: 2 x USD 591,95 = USD 1.183,90
- 2 travel days per diem: 2 x USD 56,40 = USD 112,80
- 2 hotel nights: 2 x USD 100,- = USD 200,-
- 1 long-haul Business Class flight: USD 2.500,-
- 2 continental US flights: 2 x USD 300,- = USD 600,-
Total = USD 14.656,92 (only one long-haul Business Class
flight considered !)
Monthly costs for an AABO Captain on a 17 day trip:
- Compensation: USD 10.249,69
- 2 Ryanair flights: 2 x USD 200,- = USD 400,-
Total = USD 10.649,69
DIFFERENCE: USD 4.010,23 per month to the advantage of AABO x 45
= USD 180.000,-/month = USD 2.200.000,-/year
Please do your own calculation for the different pattern length – it will be an even higher number.
Result:
- 3 AABO Captains have the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains.
- 3 AABO Captains can fly + 300 hrs per month for the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains, who can fly only 124 hrs for these costs.
- AABO paid quite a lot of your profit sharing bonus.
- If Atlas US crewmembers can do the same hours and days for the same price then you should and management may talk about AABO.
3. Comparison Vacation days
- Atlas US: 14 days/year, NO pro-ration of days off
- AABO: 28 days/year, WITH pro-ration of days off
= Same number of vacation and working days per year
4. Other details:
Atlas US crewmembers work 17 days per month since February 2006.
AABO crewmembers
- worked 18 days per month until 2009 for the same salary,
- no premium pay for the first 3 overtime days until 2009,
- reduced annual longetivity pay for the last 3 years
STN office is doing administration for
- all STN based crewmembers (Atlas & AABO) and
- all European based Atlas and Polar ground staff.
5. Some finals:
Question 1:
Where are your comments about GSS and your demand that GSS must go?
- They operate 3 x 400’s, soon 3 more -8's, all owned by Atlas, operated by European pilots.
- This would/could be 60 less furloughs at Atlas.
- And they even operate into the US!
Question 2:
Why don’t you complain that there are no furloughs/downgrades at Polar, as there are several junior to AABO and should/will be merged with Atlas (soon)?
- We (Atlas & AABO) operate several of the DHL (= Polar) flights.
Question 3:
No other solution/discussion regarding the furloughs than bashing on AABO ?
- What’s about a proposal from the Union or anybody else for a solution to minimize the furloughs or one which would not require them at all, such as everybody works 80%?
Comment about Titan:
- Maybe not a bad idea to move all AABO crewmember to Titan and hire more international crewmembers there to operate a bunch of the -400s and even the 747-8’s under a different/new certificate.
- Would then be much easier to be accepted by and operate several aircraft for some European and other operators, who can’t/don’t want to make business with an US company to fly their freight – see GSS.
- And as the above figures show it will result in a higher profit for AAWH as less crewmembers are required to do the same.
- Thank’s for the idea, we will go for it and will propose it at the proper places – maybe you consider to get your JAR licence soon.