Polar/Atlas The Saga Continues
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Originally posted 28 April:
This is about a favorable outcome for Bourne and his inner circle, as engineered by Cato to end Polar. Period.
Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items. Look for the following:
1...HARD press for Teamster representation (w/ Cato support).
2...Move for Single Carrier (w/ Cato support).
3...Subsequent vote to pull Polar from ALPA (w/Cato support).
4...Bourne installed at Teamster National.
5...Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions.
6...Continuous blame of ALPA and Polar for concessionary contract from all of the above (and WhaleFr8) rings suddenly hollow with Atlas membership-
AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE...
At least Dave will still be eating in the same expensive DC restaurants on the membership dime.
************************************************** *****
Add Fr8Dog and NITTY-GRITTY to WhaleFr8...
The list? It will be attacked and a staple job will be attempted.
**************************************************
This is about a favorable outcome for Bourne and his inner circle, as engineered by Cato to end Polar. Period.
Honorable representation of his crewmembers is not on Bournes list of To Do items. Look for the following:
1...HARD press for Teamster representation (w/ Cato support).
2...Move for Single Carrier (w/ Cato support).
3...Subsequent vote to pull Polar from ALPA (w/Cato support).
4...Bourne installed at Teamster National.
5...Caputo/Alves/Allen Atlas Teamster positions.
6...Continuous blame of ALPA and Polar for concessionary contract from all of the above (and WhaleFr8) rings suddenly hollow with Atlas membership-
AND THE REGRET AND DISAPPOINTMENT WILL CONTINUE...
At least Dave will still be eating in the same expensive DC restaurants on the membership dime.
************************************************** *****
Add Fr8Dog and NITTY-GRITTY to WhaleFr8...
The list? It will be attacked and a staple job will be attempted.
**************************************************
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Quote from Trashhauler:
"I'll give it 12 months or less, then everyone will be on the street. Take a look around you."
As the majors trim down, the cargo carriers pick up. Take a look at past history. Time sensitive freight must always move, fish, fruit, and vegetables must still be flown across the ponds. Without the bellies of United and the like available, someone will have to take up the slack. So I disagree with your prediction and say just the opposite, things are looking up.
"I'll give it 12 months or less, then everyone will be on the street. Take a look around you."
As the majors trim down, the cargo carriers pick up. Take a look at past history. Time sensitive freight must always move, fish, fruit, and vegetables must still be flown across the ponds. Without the bellies of United and the like available, someone will have to take up the slack. So I disagree with your prediction and say just the opposite, things are looking up.
Last edited by Fr8Dog; 5th Jun 2008 at 17:05.
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You are probably right to a point. My point is with the cost of fuel rising and rising, a lot of shippers may ask, is it worth the cost. With less disposable income, people buy less, less flowers, more local products, etc. I am fortunate to remember the bad old days of the Carter administration when all this happened. I personally see deja vu here. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see anyone on the streets but given the mindset of a lot of the outfits running cargo, and the state of the world economies, not to mention the price of fuel, a lot of carriers are on the back side of the power curve already and would shut the doors at the same time they say they are hiring. History, I am afraid is on my side on this one.
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While airlines that haul people are loathe to increase fares, even when that is the ONLY way to remain solvent, "fuel surcharges" have been alive and well in the freight business for quite a while.
With UAL pulling 6 747s (and their belly freight capacity) off the line, there will be a lot of freight looking for another way to get across the Pacific and Atlantic. It may be enough to help the bottom line of dedicated freight haulers...
CO just announced major layoffs, too, so there may be more airplanes parked...
With UAL pulling 6 747s (and their belly freight capacity) off the line, there will be a lot of freight looking for another way to get across the Pacific and Atlantic. It may be enough to help the bottom line of dedicated freight haulers...
CO just announced major layoffs, too, so there may be more airplanes parked...
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However, with a suffering economy, due to high fuel cost, demand for goods is decrease across the board. Also shippers will have to take a hard look at the cost over time of air freight v. ocean shipping to stay competetive.
ATW reported that Emirates expects this year will be difficult for them because of the slowing economy.
In really these aren't really good times for any aviators. But I rather sit it out here than any other place.
ATW reported that Emirates expects this year will be difficult for them because of the slowing economy.
In really these aren't really good times for any aviators. But I rather sit it out here than any other place.
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FR8Dog
I have nothing to do with Polar or the BoBBs.
As a Gaint guy, I prefer to stay with the facts. I certainly do not like what's happening in our industry or our economy, and I am glad to be here. But we all need to face reality.
Please, read the below News update from ATW on this subject.
Two items:
1. If things get really bad in the ecomomy and Emirates has to make cuts, the contract will be the first to go.
2. If DHL is able to team up with UPS for their domestic lift they might also consider to codeshare internationally especially when the economy slows any further.
Neither one of these senarios would help Atlas or Polar.
Emirates SkyCargo carried 1.3 million tonnes of cargo in the fiscal year ended March 31, up 10.9% year-over-year, and boosted revenue 20% to AED6.4 billion ($1.7 billion), comprising 19% of Emirates' total revenue. But Divisional Senior VP-Cargo Ram Menen warned that the current fiscal year "will not be easy" and that cargo operators are entering into a "correction period" that will weed out inefficient players. "All carriers will have to refine their operating practices and airlines operating fuel inefficient aircraft will not survive," he warned at a gathering of SkyCargo employees. EK will take delivery of the first of eight 777Fs it has on order later this year.
I have nothing to do with Polar or the BoBBs.
As a Gaint guy, I prefer to stay with the facts. I certainly do not like what's happening in our industry or our economy, and I am glad to be here. But we all need to face reality.
Please, read the below News update from ATW on this subject.
Two items:
1. If things get really bad in the ecomomy and Emirates has to make cuts, the contract will be the first to go.
2. If DHL is able to team up with UPS for their domestic lift they might also consider to codeshare internationally especially when the economy slows any further.
Neither one of these senarios would help Atlas or Polar.
Emirates SkyCargo carried 1.3 million tonnes of cargo in the fiscal year ended March 31, up 10.9% year-over-year, and boosted revenue 20% to AED6.4 billion ($1.7 billion), comprising 19% of Emirates' total revenue. But Divisional Senior VP-Cargo Ram Menen warned that the current fiscal year "will not be easy" and that cargo operators are entering into a "correction period" that will weed out inefficient players. "All carriers will have to refine their operating practices and airlines operating fuel inefficient aircraft will not survive," he warned at a gathering of SkyCargo employees. EK will take delivery of the first of eight 777Fs it has on order later this year.
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Atlas/Polar could have merged.
Regarding this issue, the Polar/Atlas merger, what it really sad for me is that this could have been a really great company. If the management had wanted it to be.
In my experience, pilots are pilots, all trying to do the same thing. Have a stable job, have a decent retirement, get paid correctly and on time, have the company consider the employees and NOT treat them like a number, maximize profit without having the profit motive overshadow the fact that companies are about people and families, having qualified people run their airline instead of some bean counter who was running a railroad company last week, an airline this week and who
watches the stock price and wants to bale to some other shaky airline, file Chapter 11 bankruptcy at the first sign of trouble only to screw the employees and leave with some outrageous settlement. Isn’t that what has happened at Delta, American, United and others? It seems so typical of corporate America these days, screw the employees! A change in government maybe?
I have flown for a few non-scheds. Some of the crews are a problem, always looking to screw the company, most however are excellent and only want all that I described above. Sadly, in America particularly, there is a corporate sentiment to screw the employee. In this computer era I have been chasing my paycheck for 20 years and watch it get smaller and less stable each year! Most pilots in the US have been screwed out of their retirements and accepted pay concessions only to see the management leave their companies with HUGE bonuses and settlement packages. If any of the employees who accepted the pay cuts, to help the company, would have refused, it would have been perceived buy the management that they “were not a team player”! I say let the CEO’s leave and don’t let the door hit them in the ass!
Has ALPA managed to defend this degradation in pilot benefits? NO! Like all unions they are essentially useless! They are like insurance companies, more interested in collecting premiums that they are in paying out settlements. You could also equate them to churches who want to screw you out of your money while promising a salvation that they can't deliver! Trust in me, trust in me…………………! All tax exempt of course!
The Polar/Atlas arrangement could have been resolved ages ago had the "management" have had some vision! I truly don't even know what the "management" wants for this company. You never hear from Flynn. One has to ask, is he a visionary or is he just seeing things? Is he actually in charge or is someone else pulling his strings! Instead of honing this company into a cohesive team the management chose to play one side against the other resulting in animosity only rivaled by the Muslims and Jews. So much is predicated on rumor and hearsay. Did the Polar/Atlas management do anything to stop it? NO! they poured fuel on the fire! Now they want a merger! What we need is a new management. Clean house! Totally!
Not that the pilots are not without fault. In any merger everyone wants a windfall…………right! But what is right? What is fair?
Service in the US has really gone downhill. I flew on a US airline the other day and it smelled like a urinal! The flight attendants didn’t care. “They are not getting anything more from me!” was their response. I am not sure what the answer is. Work for overseas carriers and leave America’s aluminum urinals to the bean counters, the lawyers and $20,000/year illegal pilots! Reregulate the US airlines maybe?
At Polar/Atlas, the scheduling department will commercial me to my base because I am on reserve only to commercial me back again because they could not foresee that things would change. It all too often appears that the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. Sadly this has been the case at every US airline I ever flew for! Penny wise and dollar foolish it seems.
I hear that Richard Branson operates differently. I also see that BA CEO Willie Walsh, said he felt it would be "inappropriate" to take a bonus this year ($1.37 Million) considering the difficulties the airline encountered when it moved its operations into the new Terminal 5 at London's Heathrow airport. He said the rest of the staff would be paid a bonus as the group reached its operating margin target of 10% for the year. Ever hear of a US CEO doing that? A bonus of only $1.37M. Wow those BA chaps come cheap eh?
What a concept! Responsibility! The buck stopped with him! Let’s hope its catching…………..
In my experience, pilots are pilots, all trying to do the same thing. Have a stable job, have a decent retirement, get paid correctly and on time, have the company consider the employees and NOT treat them like a number, maximize profit without having the profit motive overshadow the fact that companies are about people and families, having qualified people run their airline instead of some bean counter who was running a railroad company last week, an airline this week and who
watches the stock price and wants to bale to some other shaky airline, file Chapter 11 bankruptcy at the first sign of trouble only to screw the employees and leave with some outrageous settlement. Isn’t that what has happened at Delta, American, United and others? It seems so typical of corporate America these days, screw the employees! A change in government maybe?
I have flown for a few non-scheds. Some of the crews are a problem, always looking to screw the company, most however are excellent and only want all that I described above. Sadly, in America particularly, there is a corporate sentiment to screw the employee. In this computer era I have been chasing my paycheck for 20 years and watch it get smaller and less stable each year! Most pilots in the US have been screwed out of their retirements and accepted pay concessions only to see the management leave their companies with HUGE bonuses and settlement packages. If any of the employees who accepted the pay cuts, to help the company, would have refused, it would have been perceived buy the management that they “were not a team player”! I say let the CEO’s leave and don’t let the door hit them in the ass!
Has ALPA managed to defend this degradation in pilot benefits? NO! Like all unions they are essentially useless! They are like insurance companies, more interested in collecting premiums that they are in paying out settlements. You could also equate them to churches who want to screw you out of your money while promising a salvation that they can't deliver! Trust in me, trust in me…………………! All tax exempt of course!
The Polar/Atlas arrangement could have been resolved ages ago had the "management" have had some vision! I truly don't even know what the "management" wants for this company. You never hear from Flynn. One has to ask, is he a visionary or is he just seeing things? Is he actually in charge or is someone else pulling his strings! Instead of honing this company into a cohesive team the management chose to play one side against the other resulting in animosity only rivaled by the Muslims and Jews. So much is predicated on rumor and hearsay. Did the Polar/Atlas management do anything to stop it? NO! they poured fuel on the fire! Now they want a merger! What we need is a new management. Clean house! Totally!
Not that the pilots are not without fault. In any merger everyone wants a windfall…………right! But what is right? What is fair?
Service in the US has really gone downhill. I flew on a US airline the other day and it smelled like a urinal! The flight attendants didn’t care. “They are not getting anything more from me!” was their response. I am not sure what the answer is. Work for overseas carriers and leave America’s aluminum urinals to the bean counters, the lawyers and $20,000/year illegal pilots! Reregulate the US airlines maybe?
At Polar/Atlas, the scheduling department will commercial me to my base because I am on reserve only to commercial me back again because they could not foresee that things would change. It all too often appears that the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. Sadly this has been the case at every US airline I ever flew for! Penny wise and dollar foolish it seems.
I hear that Richard Branson operates differently. I also see that BA CEO Willie Walsh, said he felt it would be "inappropriate" to take a bonus this year ($1.37 Million) considering the difficulties the airline encountered when it moved its operations into the new Terminal 5 at London's Heathrow airport. He said the rest of the staff would be paid a bonus as the group reached its operating margin target of 10% for the year. Ever hear of a US CEO doing that? A bonus of only $1.37M. Wow those BA chaps come cheap eh?
What a concept! Responsibility! The buck stopped with him! Let’s hope its catching…………..
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Originally Posted by cptvac
Nitty
Your implication is that I would in some way feel threatened (fortitude?) to express my opinion of the Director of the Airline Division of the IBT. AND, you and someone else are offering to get me a whole stage to take this gaint risk. Wow. Are opinions not allowed at the Teamsters? Very intimidating...
Your implication is that I would in some way feel threatened (fortitude?) to express my opinion of the Director of the Airline Division of the IBT. AND, you and someone else are offering to get me a whole stage to take this gaint risk. Wow. Are opinions not allowed at the Teamsters? Very intimidating...
See Fort.]
1. Power to resist attack; strength; firmness. [Obs.]
[1913 Webster]
I have seen a few in my past express much less opinion/slander about a general group than you have and found themselves waking up wondering why they have to suck their meals through a straw. We at Atlas are used to your Polar BS. Our soon to be Teamster brothers that you decided to lump together in this are more likely to be less tolerant and rightfully so.
Opinions are great and accepted at Teamsters and ALPA Council 072.
Unfounded accusations and slander as yours is different. The Polar leadership prefers accusations and slander when they cannot figure out how to deal with things, which is all the time. It detracts the Polar membership from the Polar MEC mistakes. They also like to use their membership to do it so it cannot be tied to themselves. This is their mode of operation and you are the continuation of it by proxy whether voluntarily or by Polar MEC request. This is the Polar legacy.
One documented third party finding of this is HERE by ALPA. Even President Prater had to back away from Polar publicly on this one. There are other ones documented and undocumented. One thing that can be counted on by all is that the Polar MEC and Neg. Committee, which you are a part of, will lie and slander for their own end means.
Instead of proving yourselves union brothers, we Atlas crews have found you nothing but a second front of a continuous war we fight with the company management.
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Best post I've seen so far on any Polar/Atlas thread
Thks Mr Biggles!
<< Atlas/Polar could have merged.
Regarding this issue, the Polar/Atlas merger, what it really sad for me is that this could have been a really great company. If the management had wanted it to be.
In my experience, pilots are pilots, all trying to do the same thing. Have a stable job, have a decent retirement, get paid correctly and on time, have the company consider the employees and NOT treat them like a number, maximize profit without having the profit motive overshadow the fact that companies are about people and families, having qualified people run their airline instead of some bean counter who was running a railroad company last week, an airline this week and who
watches the stock price and wants to bale to some other shaky airline, file Chapter 11 bankruptcy at the first sign of trouble only to screw the employees and leave with some outrageous settlement. Isn’t that what has happened at Delta, American, United and others? It seems so typical of corporate America these days, screw the employees! A change in government maybe?
I have flown for a few non-scheds. Some of the crews are a problem, always looking to screw the company, most however are excellent and only want all that I described above. Sadly, in America particularly, there is a corporate sentiment to screw the employee. In this computer era I have been chasing my paycheck for 20 years and watch it get smaller and less stable each year! Most pilots in the US have been screwed out of their retirements and accepted pay concessions only to see the management leave their companies with HUGE bonuses and settlement packages. If any of the employees who accepted the pay cuts, to help the company, would have refused, it would have been perceived buy the management that they “were not a team player”! I say let the CEO’s leave and don’t let the door hit them in the ass!
Has ALPA managed to defend this degradation in pilot benefits? NO! Like all unions they are essentially useless! They are like insurance companies, more interested in collecting premiums that they are in paying out settlements. You could also equate them to churches who want to screw you out of your money while promising a salvation that they can't deliver! Trust in me, trust in me…………………! All tax exempt of course!
The Polar/Atlas arrangement could have been resolved ages ago had the "management" have had some vision! I truly don't even know what the "management" wants for this company. You never hear from Flynn. One has to ask, is he a visionary or is he just seeing things? Is he actually in charge or is someone else pulling his strings! Instead of honing this company into a cohesive team the management chose to play one side against the other resulting in animosity only rivaled by the Muslims and Jews. So much is predicated on rumor and hearsay. Did the Polar/Atlas management do anything to stop it? NO! they poured fuel on the fire! Now they want a merger! What we need is a new management. Clean house! Totally!
Not that the pilots are not without fault. In any merger everyone wants a windfall…………right! But what is right? What is fair?
Service in the US has really gone downhill. I flew on a US airline the other day and it smelled like a urinal! The flight attendants didn’t care. “They are not getting anything more from me!” was their response. I am not sure what the answer is. Work for overseas carriers and leave America’s aluminum urinals to the bean counters, the lawyers and $20,000/year illegal pilots! Reregulate the US airlines maybe?
At Polar/Atlas, the scheduling department will commercial me to my base because I am on reserve only to commercial me back again because they could not foresee that things would change. It all too often appears that the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. Sadly this has been the case at every US airline I ever flew for! Penny wise and dollar foolish it seems.
I hear that Richard Branson operates differently. I also see that BA CEO Willie Walsh, said he felt it would be "inappropriate" to take a bonus this year ($1.37 Million) considering the difficulties the airline encountered when it moved its operations into the new Terminal 5 at London's Heathrow airport. He said the rest of the staff would be paid a bonus as the group reached its operating margin target of 10% for the year. Ever hear of a US CEO doing that? A bonus of only $1.37M. Wow those BA chaps come cheap eh?
What a concept! Responsibility! The buck stopped with him! Let’s hope its catching…………..>>
Thks Mr Biggles!
<< Atlas/Polar could have merged.
Regarding this issue, the Polar/Atlas merger, what it really sad for me is that this could have been a really great company. If the management had wanted it to be.
In my experience, pilots are pilots, all trying to do the same thing. Have a stable job, have a decent retirement, get paid correctly and on time, have the company consider the employees and NOT treat them like a number, maximize profit without having the profit motive overshadow the fact that companies are about people and families, having qualified people run their airline instead of some bean counter who was running a railroad company last week, an airline this week and who
watches the stock price and wants to bale to some other shaky airline, file Chapter 11 bankruptcy at the first sign of trouble only to screw the employees and leave with some outrageous settlement. Isn’t that what has happened at Delta, American, United and others? It seems so typical of corporate America these days, screw the employees! A change in government maybe?
I have flown for a few non-scheds. Some of the crews are a problem, always looking to screw the company, most however are excellent and only want all that I described above. Sadly, in America particularly, there is a corporate sentiment to screw the employee. In this computer era I have been chasing my paycheck for 20 years and watch it get smaller and less stable each year! Most pilots in the US have been screwed out of their retirements and accepted pay concessions only to see the management leave their companies with HUGE bonuses and settlement packages. If any of the employees who accepted the pay cuts, to help the company, would have refused, it would have been perceived buy the management that they “were not a team player”! I say let the CEO’s leave and don’t let the door hit them in the ass!
Has ALPA managed to defend this degradation in pilot benefits? NO! Like all unions they are essentially useless! They are like insurance companies, more interested in collecting premiums that they are in paying out settlements. You could also equate them to churches who want to screw you out of your money while promising a salvation that they can't deliver! Trust in me, trust in me…………………! All tax exempt of course!
The Polar/Atlas arrangement could have been resolved ages ago had the "management" have had some vision! I truly don't even know what the "management" wants for this company. You never hear from Flynn. One has to ask, is he a visionary or is he just seeing things? Is he actually in charge or is someone else pulling his strings! Instead of honing this company into a cohesive team the management chose to play one side against the other resulting in animosity only rivaled by the Muslims and Jews. So much is predicated on rumor and hearsay. Did the Polar/Atlas management do anything to stop it? NO! they poured fuel on the fire! Now they want a merger! What we need is a new management. Clean house! Totally!
Not that the pilots are not without fault. In any merger everyone wants a windfall…………right! But what is right? What is fair?
Service in the US has really gone downhill. I flew on a US airline the other day and it smelled like a urinal! The flight attendants didn’t care. “They are not getting anything more from me!” was their response. I am not sure what the answer is. Work for overseas carriers and leave America’s aluminum urinals to the bean counters, the lawyers and $20,000/year illegal pilots! Reregulate the US airlines maybe?
At Polar/Atlas, the scheduling department will commercial me to my base because I am on reserve only to commercial me back again because they could not foresee that things would change. It all too often appears that the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. Sadly this has been the case at every US airline I ever flew for! Penny wise and dollar foolish it seems.
I hear that Richard Branson operates differently. I also see that BA CEO Willie Walsh, said he felt it would be "inappropriate" to take a bonus this year ($1.37 Million) considering the difficulties the airline encountered when it moved its operations into the new Terminal 5 at London's Heathrow airport. He said the rest of the staff would be paid a bonus as the group reached its operating margin target of 10% for the year. Ever hear of a US CEO doing that? A bonus of only $1.37M. Wow those BA chaps come cheap eh?
What a concept! Responsibility! The buck stopped with him! Let’s hope its catching…………..>>
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PHbiggles
As always you have the ability to cut through all the BS and get right to the point. That is why I enjoyed flying and laughing with you so many years. Great post buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As always you have the ability to cut through all the BS and get right to the point. That is why I enjoyed flying and laughing with you so many years. Great post buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Nitty
My opinion is that the Atlas MEC (including the former MEC Chair) and its Negotiating Committee have been in bed with Management, and remain snuggled up. I have seen/heard nothing to change that opinion.
I defy you to show one instance where I have "slandered" the Teamsters OR even commented on the Teamsters. If you choose to somehow stand behind the Teamsters hoping they will fight your "battles" for you or "threaten" those that speak out--Good Luck. They are smarter than you are.
While you are reviewing posts, take a good look at some of your own and apply your slander criteria. You have zero credibility.
My opinion is that the Atlas MEC (including the former MEC Chair) and its Negotiating Committee have been in bed with Management, and remain snuggled up. I have seen/heard nothing to change that opinion.
I defy you to show one instance where I have "slandered" the Teamsters OR even commented on the Teamsters. If you choose to somehow stand behind the Teamsters hoping they will fight your "battles" for you or "threaten" those that speak out--Good Luck. They are smarter than you are.
While you are reviewing posts, take a good look at some of your own and apply your slander criteria. You have zero credibility.
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Originally Posted by cptvac
I defy you to show one instance where I have "slandered" the Teamsters OR even commented on the Teamsters.
So you will know what we are talking about:
Slander \Slan"der\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Slandered; p. pr. &
vb. n. Slandering.]
1. To defame; to injure by maliciously uttering a false
report; to tarnish or impair the reputation of by false
tales maliciously told or propagated; to calumniate.
[1913 Webster]
I guess you don't bother to read your own "cut and pasting". Then again, most of us don't either after the second time and give even less credence to it. I've passed your posts around to check if I was just imagining it. Since yesterday, five are in agreement with me out of the eleven Teamsters mailed. Still waiting on the other six to respond.
My postings normally have something to back them up. Usually with a link to a verifiable source or have been witnessed by a third party. Not just my say-so like you.
Yours, lets just say they carry less weight than the paper you can print them on, stating only innuendo and malice directed by the Polar leadership.
As to standing behind others, we don't. We stand in front, in unity, requiring court orders to tell us to stop (Federal Order 1 in PDF Order 2 in PDF) and only then stand aside. BTW your MEC lied about the court orders to your membership, and took that VARS down at ALPA National order. Luckily there were copies and recordings of that.
What has your leadership done that can be remotely considered union to union oriented? Request relief from struck work agreements and only monitored A/C loads from an office in Purchase NY in the run up to the Atlas strike count down? At least Atlas guys crawled around on the freight and checked airbills for your freight, even after being ordered back to work for the sympathy strike we held for Polar.
Fragments of what you say are true. Dave Bourne is the Teamsters National Airline Director. Atlas and Polar will be under single carrier status. We will become Teamsters. The rest of what you say is slander.
While on the subject, we need your authorization cards sent in http://atlasforteamsters.com/docs/au...ationcard1.pdf. There is a limited time after the NMB filing that new cards will be accepted by them. So get them into the address on the new instruction sheet. The Polar turnout has been refreshingly great and we do appreciate it. We know it isn't everyone at Polar that are problems. We've identified a large number of those. Thanks again.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 7th Jun 2008 at 05:54.
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Actually if the truth be known, slander is the spoken word and the person who thinks he is being slandered actually has to prove damages.
Libel, however, is the written word; usually written in a public forum such as PPRUNE. In this case, damages are assumed to have been incurred by the plaintiff unless the defendant can prove what he wrote was the truth.
Here it is from a lawyer:
Libel is written defamation and slander is oral defamation. In an action for libel one does not have to prove damages. They are presumed. In other words, the law presumes that some damage will flow from the publication of a libel. The law also presumes in the plaintiff's favor that the statement in question is false, unless and until the defendant proves the contrary.
On the other hand, in slander, with the exception of four situations, one has to prove actual loss. The law does not presume that the publication caused the plaintiff any damage. The plaintiff has to prove special damage except in the following four situations:
1. The words charged that the plaintiff committed a criminal offense.
2. The words impute that the plaintiff has certain contagious diseases.
3. The words impute unchastity or adultery to any woman or girl.
4. The words are calculated disparage the plaintiff in any office profession, trade, calling or business held or carried on by him at the time of the publication.
So for instance, a public assertion that Bourne is "in bed" with Cato and a public declaration that Bourne is somehow colluding with the company "could" be taken to court as a libel. On the other hand it also seems to meet the parameters of item #4 above if it was spoken.
I guess that is one of the differences I see in this whole argument. The Polar guys tend to personalize it, name calling (you should see the PM's I get from Mr. Rilly) and accusing people of things that they THINK happened. Where the Atlas guys seem to focus on the issues and trying to get at the truth.
The fact that the rhetoric has heated up lately indicates the level of frustration on both sides - but some, in their infinite wisdom; and rob, in his childlike tantrums, decided to continue to post name calling, libelous statements, and innuendo instead of fairly discussing the issues.
Sorry but this is so typical. One of the staffers at a shared hotel in the Atlas system said it best - "You Atlas guys, you gentlemen - some of the Polar guys: not so much."
Libel, however, is the written word; usually written in a public forum such as PPRUNE. In this case, damages are assumed to have been incurred by the plaintiff unless the defendant can prove what he wrote was the truth.
Here it is from a lawyer:
Libel is written defamation and slander is oral defamation. In an action for libel one does not have to prove damages. They are presumed. In other words, the law presumes that some damage will flow from the publication of a libel. The law also presumes in the plaintiff's favor that the statement in question is false, unless and until the defendant proves the contrary.
On the other hand, in slander, with the exception of four situations, one has to prove actual loss. The law does not presume that the publication caused the plaintiff any damage. The plaintiff has to prove special damage except in the following four situations:
1. The words charged that the plaintiff committed a criminal offense.
2. The words impute that the plaintiff has certain contagious diseases.
3. The words impute unchastity or adultery to any woman or girl.
4. The words are calculated disparage the plaintiff in any office profession, trade, calling or business held or carried on by him at the time of the publication.
So for instance, a public assertion that Bourne is "in bed" with Cato and a public declaration that Bourne is somehow colluding with the company "could" be taken to court as a libel. On the other hand it also seems to meet the parameters of item #4 above if it was spoken.
I guess that is one of the differences I see in this whole argument. The Polar guys tend to personalize it, name calling (you should see the PM's I get from Mr. Rilly) and accusing people of things that they THINK happened. Where the Atlas guys seem to focus on the issues and trying to get at the truth.
The fact that the rhetoric has heated up lately indicates the level of frustration on both sides - but some, in their infinite wisdom; and rob, in his childlike tantrums, decided to continue to post name calling, libelous statements, and innuendo instead of fairly discussing the issues.
Sorry but this is so typical. One of the staffers at a shared hotel in the Atlas system said it best - "You Atlas guys, you gentlemen - some of the Polar guys: not so much."
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 8th Jun 2008 at 20:32.