Polar/Atlas The Saga Continues

[nitty-gritty]

I don't think anyone wants less on either side. It's just that one side of this group wants to bring it up as a jab of who has the better contract and then someone on the Atlas side bites on the bait looking for sympathy for their lack of ingenuity or ability to say no to the schedulers. I've had Atlas guys complain that they were extended 7 days involuntarily looking for sympathy and getting none when I know that they volunteered themselves for it (they can only take 4 max at elevated pay rates).

I'm glad that Polar was able to negotiate a quality of life contract under their previous owners. They didn't fair so well under the next management, but they didn't go backwards at least. We can combine our efforts now for an acceptable contract for both sides.

I believe the JNC is using data that the relative Atlas/Polar council reps brought to the table for each side. Atlas had a Wilson Poll of their crew desires for a contract. I don't know what the Polar side did if anything. I don't think the JNC has access to each councils side except through their respective MEC delegated representatives to the JNC. So I guess you should start with your councils negotiation reps first. You can probably just send them to the usually ones R.H. and M.H. despite their recent resignations. I imagine they are running the show from behind their replacements.

On another note of general hate mongering of late. While listening to the Polar MEC latest VAR's (Click Here for 2.5 Mb MP3). I see that he further fans the hate among councils. I note that the Chairman didn't mention the fact that the dismissed -200 Polar captain had been the center of attention in two incidents in one day in Incirlik as a DH'der on two different Atlas flight's let alone his unprofessional treatment of Atlas crews DH'ding on his flights later on until his termination. He made himself a target because of it. Now the Polar Chairman is trying to fan the flames further hoping others will do the same. Probably at the cost of more jobs on each side of the equation.

Hopefully everyone else will be professional enough not to take that bait.

[Beaver_Driver]

I note that the Chairman didn't mention the fact that the dismissed -200 Polar captain had been the center of attention in two incidents in one day in Incirlik as a DH'der on two different Atlas flight's let alone his unprofessional treatment of Atlas crews DH'ding on his flights later on until his termination. He made himself a target because of it.

Not to mention the fact that he is almost universally reviled by the Polar crews and is the guy who allegedly messed with the computers in the ICN crewroom to publicly excoriate the Atlas crewmembers.

We all need to be professional and stick together. While it is not surprising that the Polar MEC would publicize this, it serves no purpose from a leadership aspect other than to fan the flames of hate and discontent. I notice that the Atlas MEC didn't consider publicizing the name of the Polar crewmember who reported an Atlas guy(s) to the Himms committee.

[742]

I think you should get the Polar attitude that if you extend me it is going to cost you dearly.

Days one and two are 5.47 hours on top of guarantee, plus whatever you are actually flying.

Days three and four are 6.38 hours each. So a three day extension for a typical Captain is worth $2900. Again, plus whatever is actually flown.

Abusive extensions occur, I had a nasty one in November that I am still mad about. However you also have guys going after the money by bidding into trips that are obvious targets for extension (last leg deadheading back from Europe, for example) and/or calling scheduling and offering themselves up. Which is fine, but a few of them then run around complaining about it.

[BELOWMINS]

Ntty & Beaver
Hopefully if you are ever the subject of a termination action by the company you will recieve as much support as you've given to another crewmember. In that eventuality, maybe we can do away with the ordinary arbitration process and proceed directly to the hanging.

[joetommy]

742-----742----742---742---742---742---742---742

My point exactly. Those rates are ridiculously low. That is why the company pays it. That is why the company has told analysts on the investor conference calls that this is a profit center for them. The company actually says they are screwing us. Please--Please--acknowledge that.

THANKS

[bpp]

belowmins

... are you saying we have to support a crewmember who's being terminated even if the evidence proves he may be guilty? I'd like to hear both sides first.
bpp

[742]

Those rates are ridiculously low.

What is ridiculously low is Polar's hourly rate. That little issue seems to keep getting passed over.

[Beaver_Driver]

Hopefully if you are ever the subject of a termination action by the company you will recieve as much support as you've given to another crewmember.

Not what either of us said. Really, we wonder if Bobb is giving him any support - or is his termination only being used to further Bobb's own divisive agenda. Where is the announcement of a "fund" for him? How is the grievance for him coming? Is he getting legal help from ALPA?

No one said he didn't deserve all the help he could get. But if he did do all the previous stuff the company is aware of (he has been to Purchase; standing on the carpet twice before). Then it might be time to quietly let him go - not use his termination in a feeble attempt to incite Polar crewmembers to retaliate.

[dumbdumb]

We know the pay rates are low and trying to fix it. But when you look at how many days I/we work vs. the W-2 at the end of the year it's not that bad of a gig. Again, time at home to work to live and not live to work is what it's about for me. I'm not one of these that doesn't give a sh&t 'cause I have a military pension to fall on, either.

I haven't done it but I've always thought it would be interesting to take the W-2 and divide the total by number of days on the road. That's where I think it might get interesting. No, don't inlcude your profit sharing, either. Just flat rate by total days worked?

Have a safe holiday weekend for those that can enjoy it. I know I can and it's not like I've been here since the inception of the Polar certificate.

[joetommy]

742---742---742---742---742---742---742---742---

What are you talking about. If you deadhead on the Polar planes as much as I do. You'd know they don't get involuntary extended as much as the Atlas pilots. Granted their pay is way too low, what does that have to do with the Atlas pilots being extended?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Don't avoid the question. I'm not your enemy. I think I flew with you a couple of times.

THANKS

[BELOWMINS]

bpp
The evidence is supposed to be presented by both sides at a hearing before a neutral arbitrator. If we turn this into a popularity contest conducted anonymously on public weboards, you'd better hope you never end up as one of the contestants.

[nitty-gritty]

I believe the method used by the Polar MEC to describe the situation in his message was done so purposely to incite the pilot groups to go at each others throats. So it seems the chairman is not so concerned about the -200 captain, but wants to use him as a new platform to generate hate. Thus resulting in all the background on the terminated captain by us. You should thank your MEC chairman for that.

As to his termination. You rarely get fired for the things the company really wants to fire you over. You get fired for the stuff that will keep the company out of court later on or can prove without doubt to an arbiter. Corporate 101.

Atlas crews still have the highest section 19 rate in all of ALPA against them as of last year by their company. Kind of shows what we have to deal with regularly. Having followed through a few section 19's, evidence is provided and the dog an pony show goes on among the parties. Then the person gets terminated normally, unless it becomes exceedingly obvious that the company is wrong. At that point, they go to arbitration while the guy is unemployed. We have done very well in arbitration, but many times than not, the guy doesn't get paid for the time at the beginning of the termination to being put back to work.

So I suggest everyone think about that before trying to carry out what the Polar MEC wants.

[742]

What are you talking about. If you deadhead on the Polar planes as much as I do. You'd know they don't get involuntary extended as much as the Atlas pilots. Granted their pay is way too low, what does that have to do with the Atlas pilots being extended?????????????????????????????????????????? ???????

Don't avoid the question. I'm not your enemy. I think I flew with you a couple of times.

I think that at this point we can all agree that deadheading experiences are not an accurate representation of either group.

As for the question, look back on the thread. It goes sort of like this: Atlas pilots work 21 days/monthàno, we don’tàwell, still….demand to get paid for itàwe do.

The only reason that I post anything is that I am tired of this Polar propaganda that we Atlas pilots/engineers are out for 21 days a month every month. We are not. And I am tired of the lectures from the Polar side about their “great” contract. I have read it and am not impressed (which is not to say that I am too impressed with the Atlas one either). And I remember how the Polar contract came into being, which I suspect that many have forgotten.

And then there are the rants about quality of life being more important than money. This was true for me when my kids were small, now that one is in college and the other heading that way it is all about the money. So you see that priorities are different for both different people and different times, and no one has a right to be self righteousness over their current situation.

It is past time that we all deal with reality; not rumors, propaganda or wishful thinking. It is hard to believe that we, as in both groups, are made up of people who are dedicated to doing exactly that when nearing a crappy destination. We have so much fuel, the weather is what it is and the alternates are what they are. We deal with that realistically even when—especially when—we don’t like some of the facts. We need to bring that same mental discipline to this merger process.

[bpp]

742

Well said!
bpp

[TheMessenger]

If you want to be home more, get a 9 to 5 job. You would be home every night! 17 days away from home is the norm unless you live in ANC. This is how it is. Being an employed pilot who is away form home 17 days sometimes 21, or 9 to 5 and home every night. Make a choice and live with it and quit bitching.

[jetjock6]

Just remember: "This is the life that you have chosen"

[PCLoadLetter]

Originally Posted by 742

I think that at this point we can all agree that deadheading experiences are not an accurate representation of either group.

Actually, "we all" can't agree on that in any way. Why should I take YOUR word for it over that of people who told me in person about these experiences? Or is it only stories told by deadheaders that are untrue? How about stories told in airport vans or in crew rooms? Are those fabricated too?

And you decry the "propaganda" from the Polar side, as if noone from Atlas ever makes claims that are of dubious merit... all while minimizing the validity of that which "your" people claim is happening to them. The fact that those same people aren't posting in this thread doesn't mean that they're not saying these things.

Now if these Atlas folks are making these claims erroneously, that's a bizarre bit of behavior that is difficult for any of us to explain... But don't try to paint me or anyone with your "we can all agree" brush (I know, I know, just another contrary Polar crewmember, right?).

[Beaver_Driver]

Actually, "we all" can't agree on that in any way. Why should I take YOUR word for it over that of people who told me in person about these experiences? Or is it only stories told by deadheaders that are untrue? How about stories told in airport vans or in crew rooms? Are those fabricated too?

And you decry the "propaganda" from the Polar side, as if noone from Atlas ever makes claims that are of dubious merit... all while minimizing the validity of that which "your" people claim is happening to them. The fact that those same people aren't posting in this thread doesn't mean that they're not saying these things.

Now if these Atlas folks are making these claims erroneously, that's a bizarre bit of behavior that is difficult for any of us to explain... But don't try to paint me or anyone with your "we can all agree" brush (I know, I know, just another contrary Polar crewmember, right?).

huh?.... Larry is that you?

[742]

Actually, "we all" can't agree on that in any way. Why should I take YOUR word for it over that of people who told me in person about these experiences? Or is it only stories told by deadheaders that are untrue? How about stories told in airport vans or in crew rooms? Are those fabricated too?

And you decry the "propaganda" from the Polar side, as if noone from Atlas ever makes claims that are of dubious merit... all while minimizing the validity of that which "your" people claim is happening to them. The fact that those same people aren't posting in this thread doesn't mean that they're not saying these things.

Now if these Atlas folks are making these claims erroneously, that's a bizarre bit of behavior that is difficult for any of us to explain... But don't try to paint me or anyone with your "we can all agree" brush (I know, I know, just another contrary Polar crewmember, right?).

I believe that the combined crew force is close to 1,000 people. If a relatively few random interactions during deadheading (or in crew vans or crew rooms) have sufficient meaning for you to go ahead and form broad opinions of hundreds of others… well, have at it.

I should have said “most of us”. Because I do have faith that when the merger is done "most of us", indeed the vast majority of us, will fly together without any problems.

[nitty-gritty]

I imagine those that try their best to be a pain to others will eventually be in the same situation as the mentioned -200 captain on the 08-25-08 Polar vars whether they are Atlas or Polar.