Polar/Atlas The Saga Continues

[Beaver_Driver]

That was sarcasm there Joe Tommy. If they could get it, the company would like 30 days a month with 30 days worth of extension for no extra pay.

[nitty-gritty]

I think it has been long held that the Atlas crews want the work rules that Polar negotiated with their previous owners with enhancements while maintaining the Atlas crew pay scales adjusted for inflation and such (Atlas crews had to deal with the ex-Lorenzo lieutenants in their management willing to buy airlines, start other airlines, crew leasing companies to keep everyone under their thumb and subjugated) .

Everyone wins if this comes to pass and is plausible. Past actions by one side has done everything to shoot that in the foot, particularly from those ex-Polaroids that sit in an office at FedEx posting here (layinlow) which continue the Henderson-Hair agenda at every opportunity. ALPA finally realized that the backing of only the minoriity "scheduled" carrier has only resulted in them loosing around 900 combined dues paying members to the Teamsters. All of a sudden, a merger is on despite the years of stalling by one minoriity side.

I believe the sections the JNC have worked on with the company are the openers. They have not been TA'd. They are openers and of course the company is going to plead rape just looking at them. Many here need to remember that and understand negotiations and how it works.

Having said that, I hope the new Polar JNC negotiators prove their worth and not just as proxies of the previous ones.

[BELOWMINS]

Ditto for the Atlas JNC members.

[layinlow]

Belowmins

Nitty still has figured it out. Time to switch again.

[joetommy]

Beaver Driver/Nitty Gritty

How many days a month should the most junior crewmember owe the company? Please give me a number.

THANKS

[bpp]

layinlow,
I just have to ask why you feel it's necessary to comment on the Atlas/Polar issues if you don't work for either company? Wouldn't both parties be better off working through the issues with current employees, not one that feels he needs to represent one side while working at Fedex? Would Fedex pilots appreciate a digruntled Polar or Atlas pilot telling them what they should or shouldn't do or accept? Let it go and focus on your current job.

bpp

[Beaver_Driver]

JT - I would say no more or no less than the most senior crewmembers. Right now that is 17 days for Atlas and 16 for Polar (except that Polar may publish 17 day lines as long as they publish the same number of 15 day lines). The Polar days may be wrong as I am looking at an older contract. My guess is that the JNC will be asking for 13 or 14 days of work with no involuntary days and the company will want 18 days with 6 involuntary days available. That is TOTALLY just a W.A.G. but you get the picture. There will probably also be some back and forth or (go figure) *negotiation* about gateway vs. home basing and travel to and from the pattern start point and how that affects days off and work.

So what do you want? Are you Atlas or Polar? Have you e-mailed your wishes to the Negotiating Committee? Is pay most important of is QOL? Days off? Travel on company time or days off?

I agree with Nitty - I would love Atlas pay and Polar work rules. Unfortunately in this economy we may get neither. Too bad we weren't merged and negotiating together two years ago when we should have been.

[WorldRunner]

Throttle Back A Bit

I have never been on this site before but was encouraged to read every thread. While there are some informative well written posts, for the most part it reads like angry teen age kids with Beaver and Nitty leading the pack. What happened to the meaning of the term "Professional Pilot?" I would be embarrassed to have my family read most of these posts. Why can't you guys take a chill pill and attempt to understand most all pilots simply want to go to work, get a correct paycheck, not be hassled, fly, and go home.
These union/legal proceedings are out of the control of most of the rank and file pilots so what is there to gain by increasing division between the two pilot groups? Most all crews I have met in Atlas AND Polar have been professional, safe, and enjoyable with a few jerks on both sides. This makes me wonder if this is a pilot problem or a power play by AAWH and some of the Union Reps to maintain their money, status, and power? It looks as if the Polar AND Atlas crews are victims of some self serving power players. The crews once again are simply pawns. Another point that becomes painfully clear is that Atlas Crews blame Polar Crews for their problems and Polar Crews blame Atlas Crews. It is unclear how either pilot group has ANY control over the other. AAWH is simply playing one pilot group against the other – divide and conquer.
Most Polar Pilots I have talked to do not wish to merge, most Atlas Crews do want a merger. My question is---what does Polar have to make Atlas Pilots want to quickly merge?
Hopefully the end result will be that all pilots can stay employed and all crews have a stronger airline (or two) of which to be proud.

[dumbdumb]

Worldrunner:

I'm on the Polar side of the house and I've always thought that there's safety in numbers. Not just in a seniority list but everywhere. Look at nature. Lobsters "train" across the ocean floor to get somewhere faster, fish "school" and swirl in balls, etc. I'm sure you know what I mean, right?

Now, what is NOT right about the whole deal is Atlas getting to reap the benefits of the Polar certificate. They're already flying two airplanes for DHL service. No, I'm not mad or will even think about being mad at the pilot group; except for people who SCAB. They don't deserve anything -- period! And the crap of them wanting to go with the Polar certificate if it was sold. Nope, huh uh. Sorry.

So for all of your Atlas for Teamsters supporters I'm waiting for a rebuttle to the recent Prater letter to contradict going to Teamsters. When I have asked some of the guys that have jumpseated/deadheaded on our flights why they want to go to Teamsters it seems they only have the answer of they're mad at ALPA. No, I'm not looking for a fight when asking them. I'm only trying to gather information and asses the situation. Sure, I understand that side and mad, too. But we, I mean you guys need to make sure we get EVERYTHING in service that ALPA brings to the table, too. Yes, I've been to the atlasforteamsters.com web site, but I see nothing in writing as of yet about insurance programs, stranded in a foreign country, legal representation, etc. Trust me, I'm one of the Polaroids swaying to the Teamster side. But I'm not "taking my ball and going home" just 'cause I'm not getting my way. If the benefits add up and representation then so be it. Otherwise, we're stuck with the ugly Step-Mom! And she's really going to Pi$$ me off if she gets away with taking 401K money to support dues. Don't get me started on that one.

[nitty-gritty]

You think paying dues on your 401k is going to be bad, wait until you get the national proposed assessment for the upcoming mergers and I'm not talking about the Atlas-Polar merger. I'm talking about the proposed national assessment for the other merger NWA-Delta to all of the ALPA membership. I believe you can get that info from the last ALPA Board of Directors meeting minutes.

I believe the Teamsters push already has loss of license insurance commitments published under "The Facts" on their site if that is the insurance you were asking about. Click Here for PDF

[bpp]

dumbdumb

No, I'm not mad or will even think about being mad at the pilot group; except for people who SCAB. They don't deserve anything -- period! And the crap of them wanting to go with the Polar certificate if it was sold. Nope, huh uh. Sorry.
Is this a general statement or are you implying someone scabbed?
bpp

[L-38]

Anyone here re- surfacing or hinting on past "scab" accusations are out of place and of past history. We should now be done with that, as that issue alone promotes unnecessary division and is akin to recklessly throwing a wrench into the machinery of the melding of the pilot groups discussed here.

Of greater importance is whether it is to the benefit of all to be cohesive of bargaining power with management.. . . If not, is it worth it for the Polaroids to continue to solely hang their hat on their perceived DHL goose, and thus continue the attempt to go it alone? To me, that is what is being discussed here.

[L-38]

Per Beaver -

will want 18 days with 6 involuntary days available. . . So what do you want? . . .

I believe that any involuntary days are a supreme nuisance to pilots, but sometimes necessary for company opps and therefore unavoidable. If involuntary, then they should be few and well paid for. . . Like layinlow say's - involuntary days are more often than not an excuse for poor scheduling, rather than necessary operational happen stance - i.e. a broken airplane.


Some will see layinlow as not a member of the club anymore, (although technically he still is). He does have value when constructive, however . . . How would FedEx do it?

[Intruder]

I see nothing in writing as of yet about insurance programs,

Nitty has already answered the Loss of License question.

Life insurance can be had for MUCH less and on MUCH better terms than offered by ALPA! If you're interested, PM me and I'll send you the address of an independent agent who specializes in insurance for pilots and got me (and several others I know) some great ploicies at great rates.

[nitty-gritty]

Some will see layinlow as not a member of the club anymore, (although technically he still is).

If I remember correctly, he took his money under some early out deal with the company for FE's and ran as mentioned by other Polar members (Heilvair (?) mentioned it a couple of times on past threads and it seemed to mean something in his response). So I'm not certain of his recall rights.

As to involuntary day extensions, the company has used them to enhance scheduling instead of the agreement that they would only be used for broke A/C or WX delays. There are a load of unfinanced by ALPA grievances waiting for arbitration on that alone. A lesson that should be well addressed in the current negotiations.

[joetommy]

L-38

I think the excuse of broken airplane or last minute charter accounts for less than 5% of the involuntary extensions. I don't understand why anyone would even say such a thing when the company openly admits that they are 25% under crewed. I.E. the last investor confrence call.

THANKS

[dumbdumb]

bb: There are scabs working for Atlas but as a previous post said, and I agree, I'm not going to open up this can of stinch. It's time to move on. If I see there name on my crew pairing some day I'll have to work with them. Doesn't mean I have to have a beer with them.

To the others: Yes, I did see the insurance information on the web site. But what I don't understand is why Prater is implying stuff. I'm sure it will all be addressed in the next voicemail on the 30th. If not, it darn should be as this has created a little anamosity among the ranks.

[L-38]

I believe you are right Joetommy - therefore an involuntary extension should reflect a price that management must pay - not crewmembers . . . after all - the managers are the ones that manage it!

[joetommy]

L-38

Good, we agree.

Today, junior Atlas crewmembers are working at least 21 days a month. I don't know anyone who is happy with the situation. And it seems that the people in the know on this board will not even acknowledge that the situation exists.

THANKS

[TheMessenger]

I think the key words here are, new hires and working.

What other airline is hiring now? An old friend of mine who was raised on a farm used to say, "stop complaining with your mouth full".