Polar Arbitration III(a)

[EJetCA]

Just to clarify a few points....

It reads 37 Captain Positions - and it is not an award it is Bobbrobins proposal to the arbitrator.

Doesn't sound to me like Atlas is stagnant - now the scheduled service might be stagnant but the Atlas business model is growing. (see the news item below)

AAWWH (Atlas Air WorldWide Holdings) already owns and will continue to own a "controlling" majority of Polar. That has not changed and will not change until the USDOT regs change.

AAWH has already ended the alliance flying. Atlas is not doing any flying for Polar that is not available to Connie or SATinc. It only makes sense for another partner in the holding company to take up the Polar slack when they have MX issues etc - or would you rather that go away too just to satisfy your anti-Atlas sentiments.

Thanks for the clarification of the proposal. Now, I must take you to task for being a hot-head.

First, and most important, you need to pay better attention to what is written, and not what you want to read.

Second, I'm not anti-Atlas, however YOU are anti-Polar. I want EVERYONE to have successful, stable careers. YOU want Polar pilots to disappear. That's a true shame wishing ill on a fellow professional.

Right now I don't work but 16 days a month. If on RSV, I can be extended to 19. I have no issues bustin' my hump when I'm out. I want to make my company money. Those days INCLUDE travel. Then I'm home. There are airlines without unions, and CBA's that are on the road an equal or lesser amount than Atlas.

It is well-established that AAWH owns 5Y and a "controlling" majority of PO. I never disputed that. What you may have missed was the sarcasm of "controlling" (tone of voice never carries well when typing). Just like Virgin America, Astar, ABX and whoever else has a "minority equity stake" in a US airline, the practical test is independence. What do think would happen if AAWH moved all of the PO flying to, say, CGN and ran Europe routes? Do you think DHL would shrug and say, "Ah vell, vee are only minority owners?" Honestly?

I did see the news item today, thankyou. That's great the first five Ochos PDP's are financed. Now, they claim 5Y put up the money. Is there a secret 5Y account somewhere that AAWH doesn't control? I'm pretty sure the folks in Purchase put the deal together, not the 5Y pilot group.

As far as the stagnant comment, I really needed more detail. I meant the fleet. There's an order for 5 Ochos that got financed today. Those are coming in, what, 2010? They are parking 3 Classics (-3) are looking for 2 -400s (+2) making one less airplane (-1) total. Further, our Dear Leaders in NY say that the intial Ochos are to replace classics. Since PO has 1 classic, and zero (0) in the DHL agreement, I don't think we'd need 5 Ochos to replace our RJ.

Again, the alliance flying....We all know it ended, but what happened to it? Did AAWH just let all those customers jump to Southern, Connie and the Zone? That wouldn't be right. I'll bet they kept the customers, and routes, then as contracts renewed, changed the name from Polar to Atlas allowing them to end the alliance flying. Just a guess.

Hopefully that clears up my positions. If you need more information, just let me know

Happy Contrails

[WhaleFR8]

Ejet
Not anti-Polar at all. Just tired (as are many of us) of getting screwed by the Polar MEC (this one and the past). We could bullet point all of the reasons yet again, but they are many, and have already been covered numerouse times by Merc, as well as myself, and others.

What we are tired of RIGHT NOW, is the delaying tactics of Bobbrobin. Your MEC is costing all of us (Atlas and Polar) a new contract and a pay raise. And the untruths, half truths, and general disinformation posted by most of you on this board, and others, deserves a response.

If you think that makes me a hot-head then so be it. You mention your 16 days a month and your RS days etc etc. Atlas pilots have not even had a chance to get to that point because your MEC has been delaying this whole thing, including the Atlas pilots contract. In some peoples opinion, this could be because Robin made a statement to Cato that he would "never wear an Atlas uniform." If this is true, it is just one more element in the screwing of the Atlas crewmember by an MEC that has admitted it thinks all ACMI carriers are scabs. It sucks that one man's pride is having a such a huge impact on 750 crewmembers at Atlas.

[WhaleDriver]

Second, I'm not anti-Atlas, however YOU are anti-Polar. I want EVERYONE to have successful, stable careers. YOU want Polar pilots to disappear. That's a true shame wishing ill on a fellow professional.

That may be the case now, but it's because of misplaced trust and screw jobs that have now evolved into the current state of affairs. Day one of the purchase, we thought it would be a good mix. Talking to Polaroids, I knew then, they were not happy about being purchased until they heard that the combined group was going to be named Polar. Then I couldn't hear enough of it. Now, the plan being named Atlas, it's gone the other way...interesting.

I did see the news item today, thankyou. That's great the first five Ochos PDP's are financed. Now, they claim 5Y put up the money. Is there a secret 5Y account somewhere that AAWH doesn't control? I'm pretty sure the folks in Purchase put the deal together, not the 5Y pilot group.

Yep. just about as much as the PO pilots had in getting the Japan and China landing rights that we have to hear about over, and over and over again.

[WhaleDriver]

They plan to maintain two separate operating certificates. This is fact. You will bid which company you would like to fly at. How is this a merger? It is simply a plan to negate Polars hard won work rules and keep both pilot groups away from negotiations for as long as possible. Your statement about the Atlas certificate is not very well thought out. Do you really think AAWH is going to risk losing Polars routes. Not a chance. The Atlas MEC has been buying into JCs plan for far to long. Wake up!

You guys must think a lot of your contract. AAWW would go to all this trouble just to negate a contract that only has 150 pilots.

They will fly both certficates thru one pilot group, plain and simple. Nowhere have they said otherwise, regardless of what BobbRobin is telling you. He's hanging on for dear life to his 100 hr a month job. We will fly both certs, with one set of manuals. Fly Polar one day. Atlas the next. What is so difficult about that. This plan makes since, your vision of things doesn't. This is where the savings is. Much less DHing and positioning of crews. That is why their doing this in the first place.

Hard won, by your less than three hour stike with a company that knew they were going to either sell you or shut you down in the next year or so....wow.

[nitty-gritty]

I find it somewhat two-faced or hypocritical in the recent arbitration involving the Polar FE's furloughs and Capt downgrades.

Those Polar positions were gained at the expense of about 175 Atlas crewmembers and 5 A/C when Atlas crewmembers were in their initial contract negotiations with no section 6 protections. That resulted in management moving those A/C and jobs over to Polar as an exercise in pressuring the Atlas crewmembers to cave during negotiations.

Now Polar seems to deem that all military airlift which was most of the aforementioned flying and A/C as theirs forever since they touched it at one time despite who had it before (at the expense of Atlas crewmembers jobs btw) or competes for it. Now they have the audacity to cry foul when the same happens to them. That nasty Atlas Air ACMI company then starts scheduled service flying Atlas route authorities that Polar enjoyed flying at the expense of more Atlas jobs.

What is the phrase I'm looking for here, is it "Pull the ladder up I got mine"? It looks like that works two ways and it has come full circle.

Personally, I think it would be better to work together and use the best parts of both our contracts merged together into a merged company. That way the company can't play us off each other any more. Then again, we can continue down this road as it exists now and not get anywhere or further downsized depending on which end of the negotiations cycle our sides are on.

[rob rilly]

Nitty?

It's already too late for either of these groups to get along! Too much has been said here and on the ALPA main board, by T.H. and K.M. It will never work out in the Cockpits. The same thing happened at EverZone in the early 90's.

Please educate yourself where the Military flights come from, ie FedEx ! It is part of a group award and FedEx heads it up.

How come Atlas uses more Polar call signs, than Polar uses Giant ?

[WhaleDriver]

How come Atlas uses more Polar call signs, than Polar uses Giant ?

Gee, thats a tough one. Let's see, Polar planes are fully scheduled hauling scheduled cargo. Atlas is in the ACMI/Charter business. Planes available when other can't. When one of your -400's broke at NRT for two weeks, we covered some of your flying... I still have not seen any Polar call signs elsewhere. BTW, didn't your Atlas colored -400 do some military flying in November/December, leading to the Atlas plane using Polar call sign story?

[WhaleFR8]

It's already too late for either of these groups to get along! Too much has been said here and on the ALPA main board, by T.H. and K.M. It will never work out in the Cockpits. The same thing happened at EverZone in the early 90's.

You don't seriously think that only two Atlas pilots are responsible for ALL the animosity between the two groups do you? How Naive a statement that is. What about D.W. (Mr Scab Announcer himself) who is no longer at Polar? What about M.H. (Capt Vac.) and the myriad of others that were Bobbrobins mouthpiece. What about your former MEC chair who no longer works at Polar - the actors in this soap opera are many and are on both sides. I think if you were to step back and objectively look at things, you would see that the Atlas pilots who post on this board only post in response to Polar untruths, half-truths, and obvious attempts to distort reality.

Please educate yourself where the Military flights come from, ie FedEx ! It is part of a group award and FedEx heads it up.

Actually this is called CRAF flying and the consortium that is called the FedEx group has many members. Perhaps you think (or Bobbrobin think) that this makes them all Polar flights? Do you want to take all the military flying from the rest of the FedEx CRAF airlines too?

I have read the Polar suggested dispute resolution - have you? In that resolution they attempt to tell the arbitrator that ANY military flight should be a Polar flight because Polar used to do military flights. Point of fact is that Polar no longer has the aircraft to do both the military flights and the scheduled service flights they are currently doing. AAWWH made the decision to park the old antiquated MX intensive Polar classics and at one point Polar was given some of the Atlas classics in an attempt to bolster the scheduled service. As I have said before, the more Polar flying that was done the more money the company lost - and it would be even greater in todays fuel economy. So those aircraft are back where they can make some money. And just because at one point Polar had four or five Atlas aircraft Bobbrobin now think they belong to the Polar group? You don't seriously think AAWH would transfer aircraft back from the lucrative ACMI flying over to Polar just so Polar could do the military charters do you?

Point of fact is that the absolute best thing that could happen to the Polar group is to complete this merger. Then both groups would be able to fly ALL the holding company's aircraft on whichever business model is most lucrative at the time.

e Atlas uses more Polar call signs, than Polar uses Giant ?

Because Polar has neither the aircraft nor the pilots to fly anything but their current routes. I would expect to hear SAT or Tradewinds using a Giant call sign before I would expect to hear a fully allocated Polar aircraft on an Atlas Charter. Polar scheduled service is unprofitable enough without taking aircraft off line to do a charter. You obviously need the education - not nitty.

[nitty-gritty]

rob,

I've noted the posts on the ALPA national boards of TH and KM. Posting the ADR findings that Polar was wrong and the public apology by Pres. Prater for Polars actions of false charges and creating their scab list. It was required by the ADR findings. It was supposed to be posted on PPrune if they allowed it per the ADR. Also noted that only one currently employed by Polar posted back on the ALPA National boards. An ex-Polar MEC guy saying he didn't do anything and not to blame him. The finding and apology for Polars actions is also shown on the front page of http://www.alpa.org in the lower right side. So I guess ALPA is at fault also if we follow your logic. In a way, they are for their lack of earlier action. Maybe one group needs to reflect on why that finding was ruled on for the Atlas group.

One of the earlier posts addresses the FedEx part. So World, Evergreen, and Atlas who participate under that are all taking work from Polar? When is Polar going to file that grievance?

[whaledriver101]

You didnt do any flying out of NRT whaledriver. Your not even allowed into NRT. Not under a Polar callsign anyway.

[WhaleDriver]

You didnt do any flying out of NRT whaledriver. Your not even allowed into NRT. Not under a Polar callsign anyway.

I didn't say I did. We were covering the transpacific section of the flying, ANC-ICN. I'm assuming the -200 was bringing stuff from NRT to ICN?

[L-38]

"Atlas uses more Polar call signs, than Polar uses Giant?" . . ."Because Polar has neither the aircraft nor the pilots to fly anything".

Then give those flights Giant call signs. . . otherwise gear up to the bid award, put the furloughed back to work, and give Polar what is Polar's.

Perhaps I too should be allowed to post here under the name of WhaleFR8, perhaps also eat WhaleFR8's meals. After all, what's in a name?. . .specifically a Polar name that has specific labor contract rights attached to it.

[rob rilly]

L-38, Point well made !

Whalefr8, should write the Spin for Rudy ! Oops, sorry Rudy dropped out.
T.H. & K.M. can spin all they want, but the real Airlines out there know what and who they are. Airlines get confused all the time with Atlas tails, using Polar calls. Good thing they have Gateway, or it might be impossible to get to work.

[WhaleFR8]

"Atlas uses more Polar call signs, than Polar uses Giant?" . . ."Because Polar has neither the aircraft nor the pilots to fly anything".

Might be an idea to use the full quote there L38. I said ....anthing but their current routes.

Then give those flights Giant call signs. . . otherwise gear up to the bid award, put the furloughed back to work, and give Polar what is Polar's.

Yeah like the pilot groups have ANY sayso in that. BTW what would you say is "Polar's?" NONE of it belongs to either pilot group. And your childish "blame game" towards the Atlas pilot group is remeniscint of 8 year old girls after mommy takes one of their dollies away. That is not the point of this whole thread anyways. Typical of you guys. You have to find someone to blame for the consequences of your poor choices. Atlas pilots are just convenient whipping boys. Atlas pilots would rather you just say thank you - and let us all get on with our job flying flights of the combined business.

I don't believe you have any furloghed Pilots left. Do you?

Perhaps I too should be allowed to post here under the name of WhaleFR8, perhaps also eat WhaleFR8's meals.

Do you really need yet another screen name?

[WhaleDriver]

Airlines get confused all the time with Atlas tails, using Polar calls. Good thing they have Gateway, or it might be impossible to get to work.

Gee, that couldn't be the result of Polar flying two planes in Atlas colors...duhhh.

BTW, I've jump seated many times in the last 18 months and it's NEVER been an issue, no matter how much you fantasize and spin. There is equal disgust for both Polar and Atlas, this being a fine example You post BS and I have to respond.

[Best Angle]

BS

Whale - You do not have to respond to BS any more than anyone else does. Why do you feel that you have to respond?

[L-38]

"I don't believe you have any furloughed Pilots left. Do you?"
Plenty of furloughed labor, FR8 (Polar's FEs), also plenty of Atlas classics flying Polar's AMC.. . . .that is - AMC awards that were bid in the name of Polar, but not intended for Polar to fly - Management misrepresentation? Are you listening Mr. Arbitrator?

"Atlas pilots are just convenient whipping boys"
No, should not be - not any more than the Polar MEC. . . Labor is labor. Atlas pilots are just "pilots", indistinguishable from anyone else.
(except they do this screwy uniform thing with exterior epilates).

[rob rilly]

FR8, the Atlas usage of Polar calls were happening long before Polar got any airplanes fron Atlas !! SPIN BOY, SPIN ! Right, you jump seat often, HA ! You want to tell us all, that you jumpseat to work ? Now, that would be illegal when you have Gateway. I bet most of the Major Airlines would love to read the Atlas LOA starting on page 171 of your CBA about Gateway Travel. Saving Atlas all that money from the ticket cost, and loss of revenue to the Major Carriers. A few years back, Everzone almost lost all jumpseats for that same thing. Oops !

[trashhauler]

Now that was a good post. The word should be spread. After all isn't one of the ALPA member duties is to point out violations?
Me thinks a grievance is in order.

[layinlow]

Didn't Kalitta get whacked for a year for doing the same thing?