Polar Arbitration III(a)
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Whaledriver
Just answer a couple easy questions. 1) How does this merger benefit Polar crewmembers? 2) What operating certificate will the merged pilot group operate under, Polar cert. or the Atlas cert.???
Just answer a couple easy questions. 1) How does this merger benefit Polar crewmembers? 2) What operating certificate will the merged pilot group operate under, Polar cert. or the Atlas cert.???
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Whaledriver
WHALE-I always agree with you. Till now. From what I know from talking to the polar pilots, you would have to put a gun to their heads to get them to work four extra days a month. The polar pilots tell me the whole point of their first strike was to work less days per month. According to what they tell me a line holder only works a max of 16 days. A
reserve line holder 19 days, if extended. These guys laugh at how many days the Atlas pilots are out.
reserve line holder 19 days, if extended. These guys laugh at how many days the Atlas pilots are out.
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Just answer a couple easy questions. 1) How does this merger benefit Polar crewmembers? 2) What operating certificate will the merged pilot group operate under, Polar cert. or the Atlas cert.???
Another advantage would be all the spare time we'd have not giving each other crap on the boards....
2) I believe the current plan is under the Atlas cert.
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WHALE-I always agree with you. Till now. From what I know from talking to the polar pilots, you would have to put a gun to their heads to get them to work four extra days a month. The polar pilots tell me the whole point of their first strike was to work less days per month. According to what they tell me a line holder only works a max of 16 days. A
reserve line holder 19 days, if extended. These guys laugh at how many days the Atlas pilots are out.
reserve line holder 19 days, if extended. These guys laugh at how many days the Atlas pilots are out.
For the more than 10 years I've been at Atlas, I average just less than 14 days a month away from home.
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another kink
The fact that there are going to remain two certificates creates other downline issues. 1) Pilots WILL be assigned to either the PO or 5Y certificate.
So when you do that, should you choose PO, you will belong to a 6 jet fleet flying the Asian shuffle. If you bid 5Y, you will fly the same 5Y flying as now. 2) What happens when a furlough strikes? If 5Y reduces flying, and the most junior pilots are on the PO cert do you think JC will furlough the Junior pilots and issue a new system bid with countless training events, or are the more senior 5Y pilots going to get the axe?
These are more issues to be defined in any SCBA. There really needs to be ALOT of strategy and foresight whether there are separate CBAs or a BSCA, err, SCBA
So when you do that, should you choose PO, you will belong to a 6 jet fleet flying the Asian shuffle. If you bid 5Y, you will fly the same 5Y flying as now. 2) What happens when a furlough strikes? If 5Y reduces flying, and the most junior pilots are on the PO cert do you think JC will furlough the Junior pilots and issue a new system bid with countless training events, or are the more senior 5Y pilots going to get the axe?These are more issues to be defined in any SCBA. There really needs to be ALOT of strategy and foresight whether there are separate CBAs or a BSCA, err, SCBA
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Nope, the plan is to interfly between the certificates. One day flying a Polar flight, next day a Giant flight.
Maybe someone from CAL could let us in on if they DH from IAH to fly micronesia....
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Can't be done, unless I missed something in the regs....Unless they can figure a way around 121, the 8400.10, and PRIA/Drug Testing,
As I said before the airlines have been completely operationally merged already. All of the manuals and procedures are virtually the same as are the senior management, scheduling, payroll, admin, etc etc. The only thing left is the pilots. There is a merged seniority list arbitrated by Harris and hated by all. It is only waiting for Bobb and his group to finish their delaying antics so both groups can get to a merged CBA.
The real advantage to the Polar pilot is that they get to keep a job. Does anyone really think that AAWWH is going to put a 5 Billion dollar 20 year contract in jeopardy for 150 pilots?
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 28th Jan 2008 at 15:43.
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Actually quite do-able. It is done under something called MOCT. Multiple Operating Certificate Training. There is nothing in 121 or 119 that precludes a pilot group being trained to operate two certificates. It only involves having the ops specs, FOMS, and training manuals similar enough. Each certificate has to meet the requirements of pt. 119 and have the systems and manuals in place, but nothing keeps them from having the same operating manual, ops specs, training etc. The PRIA and Drug testing comment is BS as both or either can be accepted by both certificates. You are not being told the whole story. Call Chris and ask him. He knows.
While you are absolutely correct about they can have the "same" manuals, etc. in place. How come it's been over seven years and they don't have the paperwork all ironed out yet? If they did that, it would show in good faith that there was to be a merger.
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have you?
I don't need to call anyone here, because I was involved with this previously.
If all you said was correct, how come it hasn't been set up for 5Y guys can't hop out of an Atlas Bird and then fly a GSS bird immediately after?
While you are absolutely correct about they can have the "same" manuals, etc. in place. How come it's been over seven years and they don't have the paperwork all ironed out yet?
But how do you figure they could put everything in place before the combined group starts flying the airplanes. It just doesn't happen that way. Plus, if you think about it there is no reason to incur the expense to put all the Atlas guys through the retraining required by the MOCT if the Polar guys are going to be gone. The company is waiting for the arbitration rulings just like the rest of us.
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Pushed on into April
Just got word that the arbitration has been pushed into April for the Company's side of their arguments or something like that.
Also have some letters on the back and fourth between Pres. Prater, MEC Chairman Henderson and MEC Chairman Bourne on the arbitration. Kind of looks like the PAC Chairman has been ignoring the ALPA Pres. Curious if that has something to do with the Atlas Battle Stars awards, the Atlas council ADR win on "The Scab Issue" or Pres. Prater / Executive council ordering of the PAC committee to the merger negotiation table with the Atlas Council.
Here
https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41800.
Also have some letters on the back and fourth between Pres. Prater, MEC Chairman Henderson and MEC Chairman Bourne on the arbitration. Kind of looks like the PAC Chairman has been ignoring the ALPA Pres. Curious if that has something to do with the Atlas Battle Stars awards, the Atlas council ADR win on "The Scab Issue" or Pres. Prater / Executive council ordering of the PAC committee to the merger negotiation table with the Atlas Council.
Here
https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41800.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 2nd Feb 2008 at 02:44.
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I told you guys its all BS! THERE IS NO MERGER!!!! They just keep pushing things back and back and back and BACK! First it was March, now its April, we've heard this broken record before!
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Who is they? The only people delaying the merger process is Polar. The only way we're gonna find out if it's BS or not is to complete the process and see. If it's BS, then we take the combined CBA's and walk into AAWW and start from there, with a united stand between the pilot groups.
The continued delay tactics by Bobb and Robin (not the Polar MEC, mind you, ALPA nor anyone else has heard from the other elected MEMBERS of the Polar MEC in over a year) only feed into the company's plan, if the plan is indeed to fake the merger to the last minute. The sooner we get it done, the sooner we'll know and can move on....pretty simple.
Standing in the corner having a temper tantrum accomplishes nothing....
BTW, which of the arbitrations was extended? I thought it was the FE one, having nothing to do with the merger.
The continued delay tactics by Bobb and Robin (not the Polar MEC, mind you, ALPA nor anyone else has heard from the other elected MEMBERS of the Polar MEC in over a year) only feed into the company's plan, if the plan is indeed to fake the merger to the last minute. The sooner we get it done, the sooner we'll know and can move on....pretty simple.
Standing in the corner having a temper tantrum accomplishes nothing....
BTW, which of the arbitrations was extended? I thought it was the FE one, having nothing to do with the merger.
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My bad. It is on the FE and downgraded captains one that took place Jan 31 and Feb 1. Now the remainder of that is scheduled for April as I have heard. Didn't get the specific dates yet.
If there is no merger as "Whale Rider" announcement as his MEC, then Atlas management has done a fine job of fooling the Atlas council and ALPA National. Then again, maybe the Polar MEC has done the same with their vision of things to their membership.
Of course the Polar MEC and crews were also convinced that it would be a cold day in He!! before Atlas got Battle Stars, a public apology for Polars actions from ALPA National on "The Scab Issue", and received those two new A/C. So I'm more inclined to put my money on the merger happening despite Polars efforts to delay or stop it.
If there is no merger as "Whale Rider" announcement as his MEC, then Atlas management has done a fine job of fooling the Atlas council and ALPA National. Then again, maybe the Polar MEC has done the same with their vision of things to their membership.
Of course the Polar MEC and crews were also convinced that it would be a cold day in He!! before Atlas got Battle Stars, a public apology for Polars actions from ALPA National on "The Scab Issue", and received those two new A/C. So I'm more inclined to put my money on the merger happening despite Polars efforts to delay or stop it.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 4th Feb 2008 at 17:03.
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Good post nitty-gritty. The way I read the chain of letters, I pulled the following "executive summary":
Polar wins a grievance, the Atlas supports the win. There is no problem righting the ship. The original 37 individuals affected may not still number 37, but this affect's Atlas' position (I do not have the award, does it read the 37 names, or the 37 positions?). During this time, AAWH, ends the alliance flying by changing it from PO sked service to 5Y sked service. The same holding company makes the profit, but does a paper shuffle with the tags and airbills. 5Y in the mean time recieved work that PO lost. 5Y and PO were 100% owned by the same people at the time, yes?
Now, 5Y and a "controlling" majority of PO are owned by AAWH?
Did I miss anything?
BTW, anyone wonder why Southern and Connie are growing leaps and bounds, and the AAWH fleet is stagnant? One would figure they'd find work for all the old PO birds + the 5Y birds and order more for everyone!!!
OB Light rocks!!
Polar wins a grievance, the Atlas supports the win. There is no problem righting the ship. The original 37 individuals affected may not still number 37, but this affect's Atlas' position (I do not have the award, does it read the 37 names, or the 37 positions?). During this time, AAWH, ends the alliance flying by changing it from PO sked service to 5Y sked service. The same holding company makes the profit, but does a paper shuffle with the tags and airbills. 5Y in the mean time recieved work that PO lost. 5Y and PO were 100% owned by the same people at the time, yes?
Now, 5Y and a "controlling" majority of PO are owned by AAWH?
Did I miss anything?
BTW, anyone wonder why Southern and Connie are growing leaps and bounds, and the AAWH fleet is stagnant? One would figure they'd find work for all the old PO birds + the 5Y birds and order more for everyone!!!
OB Light rocks!!
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Just to clarify a few points....
It reads 37 Captain Positions - and it is not an award it is Bobbrobins proposal to the arbitrator.
Doesn't sound to me like Atlas is stagnant - now the scheduled service might be stagnant but the Atlas business model is growing. (see the news item below)
AAWWH (Atlas Air WorldWide Holdings) already owns and will continue to own a "controlling" majority of Polar. That has not changed and will not change until the USDOT regs change.
AAWH has already ended the alliance flying. Atlas is not doing any flying for Polar that is not available to Connie or SATinc. It only makes sense for another partner in the holding company to take up the Polar slack when they have MX issues etc - or would you rather that go away too just to satisfy your anti-Atlas sentiments.
Purchase, NY - February 4,2008 --
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. (AAWW) (Nasdaq: AAWW), a leading provider of global air cargo services, today announced that its subsidiary, Atlas Air, Inc. (Atlas), has closed on a $270 million financing facility in connection with pre-delivery deposit payments (PDPs) on five next-generation Boeing 747-8 wide-body freighters scheduled for delivery to the Company between February and July 2010.
Required PDPs on the five aircraft, including amounts already paid, total $311 million, with $202 million scheduled to be paid in 2008. The latter figure represents more than 80% of Atlas’ total 2008 PDP requirements on its firm order for 12 747-8F aircraft. Principal amounts outstanding under the PDP facility are to be repaid in tranches upon delivery of each aircraft to Atlas.
Six 747-8Fs are scheduled to be delivered to Atlas in 2010, with six additional deliveries scheduled in 2011. The 747-8 Freighter will represent the largest and most efficient heavy freighter in the market, providing the lowest ton-mile cost of any freighter alternative. The 12 freighter aircraft, along with options and rights to acquire up to an additional 14, anchor a fleet strategy that focuses on the Company’s customers and reinforces AAWW’s position as the most advanced, most efficient, and most reliable provider of leased freighter aircraft and outsourced air cargo services and solutions.
“We are very pleased to achieve PDP financing for our first 747-8s that complements our launch-customer pricing on the aircraft,” said William J. Flynn, AAWW’s President and Chief Executive Officer. “The financing community has been very receptive to both the Company and the asset. The -8s will represent the most fuel-efficient and cost-effective heavy freighter alternative in the market.”
He added: “In addition to the inherent economic and operating advantages of the -8s, the aircraft financing community also recognizes the relative scarcity value the -8s will have when they enter operation and our first-mover advantage as the only outsource provider with -8s on order. Furthermore, our strong operating performance, balance sheet, and prospects for growth – combined with our premier international customer list and our long-term contractual relationships – leverage the attractiveness of the asset.”
Norddeutsche Landesbank Girozentrale, a leading aircraft financier, underwrote the PDP facility and will serve as the lead bank and facility agent. Funds drawn under the facility will bear interest at Libor plus a margin.
According to Boeing generic assumptions, the 747-8 Freighter is capable of flying a maximum structural payload capacity of 140 metric tons (154 short tons) while offering 16 percent more revenue cargo volume and equivalent range when compared to than the 747-400F. The 747-8 Freighter upholds its predecessor’s legendary efficiency with equivalent trip costs and 16 percent lower ton-mile costs than the 747-400F. The 747-8 Freighter will enjoy the lowest ton-mile costs of any freighter, giving operators unmatched profit potential.
About Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc.:
AAWW is the parent company of Atlas Air, Inc. (Atlas) and the majority shareholder of Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc. (Polar). Through Atlas and Polar, AAWW operates the world’s largest fleet of Boeing 747 freighter aircraft.
It reads 37 Captain Positions - and it is not an award it is Bobbrobins proposal to the arbitrator.
Doesn't sound to me like Atlas is stagnant - now the scheduled service might be stagnant but the Atlas business model is growing. (see the news item below)
AAWWH (Atlas Air WorldWide Holdings) already owns and will continue to own a "controlling" majority of Polar. That has not changed and will not change until the USDOT regs change.
AAWH has already ended the alliance flying. Atlas is not doing any flying for Polar that is not available to Connie or SATinc. It only makes sense for another partner in the holding company to take up the Polar slack when they have MX issues etc - or would you rather that go away too just to satisfy your anti-Atlas sentiments.
Purchase, NY - February 4,2008 --
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. (AAWW) (Nasdaq: AAWW), a leading provider of global air cargo services, today announced that its subsidiary, Atlas Air, Inc. (Atlas), has closed on a $270 million financing facility in connection with pre-delivery deposit payments (PDPs) on five next-generation Boeing 747-8 wide-body freighters scheduled for delivery to the Company between February and July 2010.
Required PDPs on the five aircraft, including amounts already paid, total $311 million, with $202 million scheduled to be paid in 2008. The latter figure represents more than 80% of Atlas’ total 2008 PDP requirements on its firm order for 12 747-8F aircraft. Principal amounts outstanding under the PDP facility are to be repaid in tranches upon delivery of each aircraft to Atlas.
Six 747-8Fs are scheduled to be delivered to Atlas in 2010, with six additional deliveries scheduled in 2011. The 747-8 Freighter will represent the largest and most efficient heavy freighter in the market, providing the lowest ton-mile cost of any freighter alternative. The 12 freighter aircraft, along with options and rights to acquire up to an additional 14, anchor a fleet strategy that focuses on the Company’s customers and reinforces AAWW’s position as the most advanced, most efficient, and most reliable provider of leased freighter aircraft and outsourced air cargo services and solutions.
“We are very pleased to achieve PDP financing for our first 747-8s that complements our launch-customer pricing on the aircraft,” said William J. Flynn, AAWW’s President and Chief Executive Officer. “The financing community has been very receptive to both the Company and the asset. The -8s will represent the most fuel-efficient and cost-effective heavy freighter alternative in the market.”
He added: “In addition to the inherent economic and operating advantages of the -8s, the aircraft financing community also recognizes the relative scarcity value the -8s will have when they enter operation and our first-mover advantage as the only outsource provider with -8s on order. Furthermore, our strong operating performance, balance sheet, and prospects for growth – combined with our premier international customer list and our long-term contractual relationships – leverage the attractiveness of the asset.”
Norddeutsche Landesbank Girozentrale, a leading aircraft financier, underwrote the PDP facility and will serve as the lead bank and facility agent. Funds drawn under the facility will bear interest at Libor plus a margin.
According to Boeing generic assumptions, the 747-8 Freighter is capable of flying a maximum structural payload capacity of 140 metric tons (154 short tons) while offering 16 percent more revenue cargo volume and equivalent range when compared to than the 747-400F. The 747-8 Freighter upholds its predecessor’s legendary efficiency with equivalent trip costs and 16 percent lower ton-mile costs than the 747-400F. The 747-8 Freighter will enjoy the lowest ton-mile costs of any freighter, giving operators unmatched profit potential.
About Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc.:
AAWW is the parent company of Atlas Air, Inc. (Atlas) and the majority shareholder of Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc. (Polar). Through Atlas and Polar, AAWW operates the world’s largest fleet of Boeing 747 freighter aircraft.