Polar Arbitration III(a)
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"i donot what universe you live in, scope clause means nothing, ask ur afterall,self an old timer, and anybody that has lost senority, jobs, retirement"
A scope clause should mean at least something. It's part of a contract and after all, it does show intent. If the scope is proven worthless, then a big sorry woe be unto all of labor!!
A scope clause should mean at least something. It's part of a contract and after all, it does show intent. If the scope is proven worthless, then a big sorry woe be unto all of labor!!
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Grow up guys and gals!
I don't know why I get a kick out of these two groups? Kind of like two seven year olds fighting in the back seat. And one of them yells, Mommy he's on my side! And the other yells, she hit me!
The two cerificates under FAR 121/119 each require appointed and approved management positions. Such as a Director of Operation, Director of Maintenance, Chief Pilot, etc... There is no reason why John Jones could not be the DO for "A" and "B" airline and the same for the other approved positions. All the manuals could be the same maybe even having both logo/company names on the header of each page. The aircrews could also all come from the same group or for that matter a third crew providing company. No where in the FAR's does it direct an airline to even have a seniority list. It is as simple as each seat must be trained for that seat.
The reason for maintaining two certificates has more to do with route awards than anything else and maybe brand idenity.
The longer the two groups keep throwing rocks at each others window, the long it will take to have a cohesive group. Grow up guys and gals and you both will be way ahead at the end of the day.
The two cerificates under FAR 121/119 each require appointed and approved management positions. Such as a Director of Operation, Director of Maintenance, Chief Pilot, etc... There is no reason why John Jones could not be the DO for "A" and "B" airline and the same for the other approved positions. All the manuals could be the same maybe even having both logo/company names on the header of each page. The aircrews could also all come from the same group or for that matter a third crew providing company. No where in the FAR's does it direct an airline to even have a seniority list. It is as simple as each seat must be trained for that seat.
The reason for maintaining two certificates has more to do with route awards than anything else and maybe brand idenity.
The longer the two groups keep throwing rocks at each others window, the long it will take to have a cohesive group. Grow up guys and gals and you both will be way ahead at the end of the day.
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Life is to short for this bull
Below,
Don't really want to join all this BS. I'll give you the credit for FAR 119.65. The positions are "full time." With that said, both the Atlas and Polar corporate sites, list a Mr. Kelly as Director of Safety. So one man, one position the same at both companies. Since this is the case, then why not the other required positions?
With in the FAA oversight how many POI's or PMI's oversee the company?
If it is so bad, why not move on? Life is just to short to be behaving badly.
Don't really want to join all this BS. I'll give you the credit for FAR 119.65. The positions are "full time." With that said, both the Atlas and Polar corporate sites, list a Mr. Kelly as Director of Safety. So one man, one position the same at both companies. Since this is the case, then why not the other required positions?
With in the FAA oversight how many POI's or PMI's oversee the company?
If it is so bad, why not move on? Life is just to short to be behaving badly.
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Hmmm,
I believe that Pres. Prater and his legal staff made a statement to the combined Atlas/Polar MEC that the Atlas/Polar merged model will mirror the Air Micronesia and Continental (two certificates - one pilot group) model. Not unexpected since many of the upper Atlas management that initiated the Atlas/Polar merger are from Continental and Eastern.
So I would say there is some basis to the merger already in place despite our resident experts opinions.
I believe that Pres. Prater and his legal staff made a statement to the combined Atlas/Polar MEC that the Atlas/Polar merged model will mirror the Air Micronesia and Continental (two certificates - one pilot group) model. Not unexpected since many of the upper Atlas management that initiated the Atlas/Polar merger are from Continental and Eastern.
So I would say there is some basis to the merger already in place despite our resident experts opinions.
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Atlas Profits
Atlas Air Worlwide Holdings is flying more profitably thanks to its scheduled freighter service but the carrier says it plans to put more of its aircraft into its core ACMI business. emphasis added
The parent of Atlas Air and Polar Air Cargo showed a $32.4 million net profit in the third quarter, a four-fold improvement over last year, and revenue grew nearly 10 percent to $395.9 million.
Most of that improvement came in Polar's forwarder-focused scheduled business, as well as a big jump in commercial charters.more added emphasis Revenue from ACMI operations was down nearly 12 percent in the first nine months of the year and makes up only about 22 percent of AAWH's overall revenue.
But Atlas says six 747-400s coming to the carrier through DHL's $150 million investment in Polar will take a role in the ACMI business. WTF, over? Six coming?
"(The 747s) will migrate from the scheduled service platform they are operating in today to a platform that will generate a profit contribution more consistent with our traditional ACMI operations, while mitigating traditional scheduled-service risks such as fuel," said Atlas President and CEO William J. Flynn.
Just so I understand: The big improvement was in Polar's scheduled service, and they are going to move airplanes from this "profit center" to (C - if we get hosed)MI service to get a profit margin more consistent?
Atlas Air Worlwide Holdings is flying more profitably thanks to its scheduled freighter service but the carrier says it plans to put more of its aircraft into its core ACMI business. emphasis added
The parent of Atlas Air and Polar Air Cargo showed a $32.4 million net profit in the third quarter, a four-fold improvement over last year, and revenue grew nearly 10 percent to $395.9 million.
Most of that improvement came in Polar's forwarder-focused scheduled business, as well as a big jump in commercial charters.more added emphasis Revenue from ACMI operations was down nearly 12 percent in the first nine months of the year and makes up only about 22 percent of AAWH's overall revenue.
But Atlas says six 747-400s coming to the carrier through DHL's $150 million investment in Polar will take a role in the ACMI business. WTF, over? Six coming?
"(The 747s) will migrate from the scheduled service platform they are operating in today to a platform that will generate a profit contribution more consistent with our traditional ACMI operations, while mitigating traditional scheduled-service risks such as fuel," said Atlas President and CEO William J. Flynn.
Just so I understand: The big improvement was in Polar's scheduled service, and they are going to move airplanes from this "profit center" to (C - if we get hosed)MI service to get a profit margin more consistent?
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Scope
Scope is the most valuable aspect of any labor contract. Without scope a labor contract is worthless. Polars crewmembers faught hard for its labor protective provisions, calling a strike in 1999 to get it and a fair quality of life contract. Cato and AAWH want nothing to do with such a contract and have worked diligently to pit these two pilot groups against each other. Prater and the Atlas MEC have no business mettling in the Polar pilots rights. Shame on them. The Atlas MEC needs to get some coconuts and fight for a respectable contract on there own and stop kissing managements bums. An piece of the Polar scope provision follows and seems very clear.
D. LABOR PROTECTIONS.
1. In the event of a complete operational merger between the Company and another air carrier (i.e., the combination of all the assets of the two carriers), the following seniority-integration procedures will apply:
Polar remaining Polar and Atlas remaining Atlas does not constitute a "complete operational merger".
Polar remaining Polar and Atlas remaining Atlas does not constitute a "complete operational merger".
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I'll try and work thru this, but it is with limited knowledge and some assumptions.
First, both Atlas and Polar have scheduled service now. Atlas's has a good profit with theirs because the US government usually pays to get the plane to HKG or ICN, so very few loads of unpaid sailboat fuel to Asia. Polars profits are there because it has been trimmed to just a few better margin cities, but the loads back to Asia are limited. This is where the DHL deal is huge. They will be a fixed amount of pallet space paid for by DHL, used or not. Kinda like ACMI, paid for no matter what.
It does not say, "The big improvement was in Polars scheduled service". Read it again. "Most of that improvement" was Polar AND big jump in commercial charters.
Only one -200 doing ACMI now. Used to be more.
When the Polar planes start flying for DHL, they won't be considered schedule service anymore? The six are the Polar -400's and maybe they will be considered ACMI (ref. the first quoted sentence) once DHL pulls the strings, using Polars landing rights? Atlas got China Airlines into a lot of US cities, because Atlas was a flag carrier, that CAL's could not have gotten into as easily on their own.
This has been said before. The ACMI -400's are the big money makers. The pure scheduled service -400's, don't clear the profit the ACMI planes do, so by guaranteeing loads with DHL, the scheduled service planes (now ACMI) will be making closer to the ACMI ones and have less risk than scheduled-service with fuel prices, as an example.
Atlas Profits
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings is flying more profitably thanks to its scheduled freighter service but the carrier says it plans to put more of its aircraft into its core ACMI business. emphasis added
The parent of Atlas Air and Polar Air Cargo showed a $32.4 million net profit in the third quarter, a four-fold improvement over last year, and revenue grew nearly 10 percent to $395.9 million.
Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings is flying more profitably thanks to its scheduled freighter service but the carrier says it plans to put more of its aircraft into its core ACMI business. emphasis added
The parent of Atlas Air and Polar Air Cargo showed a $32.4 million net profit in the third quarter, a four-fold improvement over last year, and revenue grew nearly 10 percent to $395.9 million.
Most of that improvement came in Polars forwarder-focused scheduled business, as well as a big jump in commercial charters. more added emphasis
Revenue from ACMI operations was down nearly 12 percent in the first nine months of the year and makes up only about 22 percent of AAWH's overall revenue.
But Atlas says six 747-400s coming to the carrier through DHL's $150 million investment in Polar will take a role in the ACMI business. WTF, over? Six coming?
"(The 747s) will migrate from the scheduled service platform they are operating in today to a platform that will generate a profit contribution more consistent with our traditional ACMI operations, while mitigating traditional scheduled-service risks such as fuel," said Atlas President and CEO William J. Flynn.
"(The 747s) will migrate from the scheduled service platform they are operating in today to a platform that will generate a profit contribution more consistent with our traditional ACMI operations, while mitigating traditional scheduled-service risks such as fuel," said Atlas President and CEO William J. Flynn.
This has been said before. The ACMI -400's are the big money makers. The pure scheduled service -400's, don't clear the profit the ACMI planes do, so by guaranteeing loads with DHL, the scheduled service planes (now ACMI) will be making closer to the ACMI ones and have less risk than scheduled-service with fuel prices, as an example.
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Scope is the most valuable aspect of any labor contract. Without scope a labor contract is worthless. Polars crewmembers faught hard for its labor protective provisions, calling a strike in 1999 to get it and a fair quality of life contract. Cato and AAWH want nothing to do with such a contract and have worked diligently to pit these two pilot groups against each other.
Scope, I don't disagree. Let's see. A strike in 1999. Yep, for a couple hours. Your right. But, you were dealing with a management that knew they were going to sell you pretty soon. That was tough? We on the other hand were dealing with an anti-labor management and a guy named Cato, post 9/11, and had some folks talking about flying our planes. Yep, our contract ended up with nice pay, s**ty work rules.
Prater and the Atlas MEC have no business mettling in the Polar pilots rights. Shame on them. The Atlas MEC needs to get some coconuts and fight for a respectable contract on there own and stop kissing managements bums. An piece of the Polar scope provision follows and seems very clear.
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With regards to Polar's scope - I recall a negotiating committee member explaining it back in 99 when he had exclaimed - "Gentleman, we may not have acquired the wage improvements that we were aiming for, however be assured that our new scope agreement is about the best in the industry, big boys included". . .
I also recall his exuberant exclamation "I can't believe that management had accepted it".
It's this same scope that is under fire today. Jagernaught Cato and company may think they have discovered the Northwest passage around it, however they have yet to sail.
Also, unless Polarioids have actually experienced / lived through "Atlas eyes", it would be impossible for them to fully understand what Atlas crewmember's have historically been going through.
I also recall his exuberant exclamation "I can't believe that management had accepted it".
It's this same scope that is under fire today. Jagernaught Cato and company may think they have discovered the Northwest passage around it, however they have yet to sail.
Also, unless Polarioids have actually experienced / lived through "Atlas eyes", it would be impossible for them to fully understand what Atlas crewmember's have historically been going through.
Last edited by L-38; 26th Jan 2008 at 16:46.
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Get real Whale
Yes Polar went on strike in 1999, for 4.5 hours, and refused to fly airplanes as ordered under threat, to achieve a reasonable first contract. The Atlas MEC on the other hand flinched and accepted a lousy contract. The Atlas MEC then tried to place the blame on a group of pilots who were understaffed to fly there own 15 airplanes and somehow going to fly 30+ additional aircraft inorder to undermine the Atlas strike. It was never going to happen, the Polar crew force was counting on the Atlas MEC to achieve an industry leading contract to be piggy backed on by Polars own upcoming bargaining. You really need to give up blaming Polar for the Atlas MECs weak actions.
The Polar pilot group is a solid, staunch, unified group. Not one Polar pilot has ever crossed a picket line and never will. If the Atlas MEC ever gets the nuts to pull the trigger the Polar pilot group will be standing shoulder to shoulder with them to ensure success.
To answer your question on Polars section 6 preparations. They are well under way. The group has been surveyed and the openers are being prepared. The Atlas negotiators, under the direction of the Atlas MEC and JC have refused to actively participate with the Polar negotiators. The smart thing to do would be to prepare identical openers and stand strong together. The Atlas MEC would rather merge to make it easier, not realizing that the company will just aquire another airline and start the same game all over again. The Atlas MEC needs to step down and allow a strong, uncomprimised MEC to take the lead. Great gains are to be had when these two bozos (DB and JC) step aside.
Two more things Whale, how is it you seem to know who or what entity is making money. You don't have a clue. And as for Atlas scheduled service, give me a break, a huge amount of scheduled service Polar was doing is now being flown by Atlas. Markets that Polar have been in since its inception in the early 90s are now being flown on Giant call signs. Atlas does not even have a scheduled frieght sales team. The frieght is being aquired by Polar and shipped on Atlas in numerous markets, they haven't even changed the flight numbers. This is copied and pasted from the companies own Q@A board:
Title: SUB Flights? </B>
Item Number: 3735</B>
Updated: 1/24/2008 11:55:00 AM</B>
Question: Just looked on AIMS at the flight schedule for a particular day, and noticed that there are many flights (Polar)that don't have a tail number assigned to them, but the word SUB next to those flights, who's operating these flights???? </B>
Response: The "SUB" fleet is the modification to AIMS that allows Crew Scheduling and Travel to see and list Atlas crew on Polar flights and visa versa.
I hope you enjoy your profit sharing checks made off the back of Polars business. Spend them proudly with your battle star stuck in your chest. Funny, I walked the line in LAX for three weeks and never saw one Atlas pilot walking beside me. Saw an awful lot of Atlas aircraft flying by me though. The Atlas MEC changed its position by the minute throughout the Polar 05 strike. I don't blame the Atlas pilots for the Polar strike failure, I blame the Atlas MECs lack of backbone and solidarity. I and every other Polar pilot have thrown there battle stars in the recycle bin where they now belong. I thank the few Atlas pilots that did stand with Polar, you have my deepest respect and appreciation, its the rest I pity.
Praters latest actions, in conjunction with the Atlas MEC and executive board, are sickening. It's not about what's right, wrong or contractual. It's all about the amighty dollar. It cost $673,000 so far to enforce the rights of the Polar contract, better to just ignore the contract and save the money, isn't that what you (whale), the Atlas MEC, and ALPA national are saying?
The Polar pilot group is a solid, staunch, unified group. Not one Polar pilot has ever crossed a picket line and never will. If the Atlas MEC ever gets the nuts to pull the trigger the Polar pilot group will be standing shoulder to shoulder with them to ensure success.
To answer your question on Polars section 6 preparations. They are well under way. The group has been surveyed and the openers are being prepared. The Atlas negotiators, under the direction of the Atlas MEC and JC have refused to actively participate with the Polar negotiators. The smart thing to do would be to prepare identical openers and stand strong together. The Atlas MEC would rather merge to make it easier, not realizing that the company will just aquire another airline and start the same game all over again. The Atlas MEC needs to step down and allow a strong, uncomprimised MEC to take the lead. Great gains are to be had when these two bozos (DB and JC) step aside.
Two more things Whale, how is it you seem to know who or what entity is making money. You don't have a clue. And as for Atlas scheduled service, give me a break, a huge amount of scheduled service Polar was doing is now being flown by Atlas. Markets that Polar have been in since its inception in the early 90s are now being flown on Giant call signs. Atlas does not even have a scheduled frieght sales team. The frieght is being aquired by Polar and shipped on Atlas in numerous markets, they haven't even changed the flight numbers. This is copied and pasted from the companies own Q@A board:
Title: SUB Flights? </B>
Item Number: 3735</B>
Updated: 1/24/2008 11:55:00 AM</B>
Question: Just looked on AIMS at the flight schedule for a particular day, and noticed that there are many flights (Polar)that don't have a tail number assigned to them, but the word SUB next to those flights, who's operating these flights???? </B>
Response: The "SUB" fleet is the modification to AIMS that allows Crew Scheduling and Travel to see and list Atlas crew on Polar flights and visa versa.
I hope you enjoy your profit sharing checks made off the back of Polars business. Spend them proudly with your battle star stuck in your chest. Funny, I walked the line in LAX for three weeks and never saw one Atlas pilot walking beside me. Saw an awful lot of Atlas aircraft flying by me though. The Atlas MEC changed its position by the minute throughout the Polar 05 strike. I don't blame the Atlas pilots for the Polar strike failure, I blame the Atlas MECs lack of backbone and solidarity. I and every other Polar pilot have thrown there battle stars in the recycle bin where they now belong. I thank the few Atlas pilots that did stand with Polar, you have my deepest respect and appreciation, its the rest I pity.
Praters latest actions, in conjunction with the Atlas MEC and executive board, are sickening. It's not about what's right, wrong or contractual. It's all about the amighty dollar. It cost $673,000 so far to enforce the rights of the Polar contract, better to just ignore the contract and save the money, isn't that what you (whale), the Atlas MEC, and ALPA national are saying?
Last edited by LANCERDVR; 26th Jan 2008 at 21:38.
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Lance, Now I know you are full of %&#$.
John Prater has had to force the Polar NC to cooperate w/ the Atlas NC, not the other way around. No one at Atlas would ever believe the Polar pilots would stand "Shoulder to Shoulder" with them. If that is the case why not just merge the list and fight for an industry leading contract together? But this is not about unity in your eyes, it's greed and selfishness.
John Prater has had to force the Polar NC to cooperate w/ the Atlas NC, not the other way around. No one at Atlas would ever believe the Polar pilots would stand "Shoulder to Shoulder" with them. If that is the case why not just merge the list and fight for an industry leading contract together? But this is not about unity in your eyes, it's greed and selfishness.
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Title: SUB Flights?
Item Number: 3735
Updated: 1/24/2008 11:55:00 AM
Question: Just looked on AIMS at the flight schedule for a particular day, and noticed that there are many flights (Polar)that don't have a tail number assigned to them, but the word SUB next to those flights, who's operating these flights????
Response: The "SUB" fleet is the modification to AIMS that allows Crew Scheduling and Travel to see and list Atlas crew on Polar flights and visa versa.
Item Number: 3735
Updated: 1/24/2008 11:55:00 AM
Question: Just looked on AIMS at the flight schedule for a particular day, and noticed that there are many flights (Polar)that don't have a tail number assigned to them, but the word SUB next to those flights, who's operating these flights????
Response: The "SUB" fleet is the modification to AIMS that allows Crew Scheduling and Travel to see and list Atlas crew on Polar flights and visa versa.
I assume all Atlas's flights are shown on Polar AIMS for the same reason, so your schedulers can easily see Atlas flights for DHing Polar crews. DID you really think each sub was your flights that we were flying, boy your gullible? Take a look at departures out of DXB. Are those "SUB" EK flights yours as well?
BTW, you might not want to make a habit of posting company rumor board posts in public forums.
Last edited by WhaleDriver; 26th Jan 2008 at 23:39.
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Pathetic
You are Whale. I notice you have no good answers for my post so you take to some kind of stupid threat, get real. By the way, that is how little you know about Polar Pilots. The day the Atlas MEC gets a backbone is the day this entire mess will move forward. Neither group has anything to gain by merging they have everything to lose. Don't you understand that the day AAWH gets both groups under there crew leasing scheme will be the day they start hiring contractors to fly all of our aircraft. There will be nothing to stop them from doing what they have already demonstrated in Stansted.
Atlas pilots have everything to gain by going it alone, and the same goes for Polar pilots. Polar pilots have nothing to gain by Atlas accepting sub par contracts and vice versa. You just don't understand solidarity. We can stand together without sleeping together. AAWH is going to have to drag Polar pilots away with clubs from our scope clause. If the arbitration goes against us, the Atlas MEC and JC will have won and enslaved us all. Wake Up already!!!
Atlas pilots have everything to gain by going it alone, and the same goes for Polar pilots. Polar pilots have nothing to gain by Atlas accepting sub par contracts and vice versa. You just don't understand solidarity. We can stand together without sleeping together. AAWH is going to have to drag Polar pilots away with clubs from our scope clause. If the arbitration goes against us, the Atlas MEC and JC will have won and enslaved us all. Wake Up already!!!
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Lance, your post was so full of holes, that have been gone over again and again, I just chose the latest attempt at BS, with the "sub" flights.
Another example is that Fell agreed to fly SIX not 30, planes. They were on the China Air contract, our ace in the hole! Four extra days by each Polaroid could have covered it. It was very regular scheduled flying.
The 2005 strike was as much a lockout as a srike. All Polar planes were parked, so of course you had 100%. Kinda like a whore bragging about giving up sex but not mentioning she had moved to a deserted island.
Your MEC might want to actually invole your vice-chairman and hear what the FO's really think. They might disagree with "The Polar pilot group is a solid, staunch, unified group." Most are "afraid " to say anything, or don't have a clue about what is taking place.
NOONE at Atlas or Polar is or will ever be enslaved....
This thread has lost direction again....sorry.
Another example is that Fell agreed to fly SIX not 30, planes. They were on the China Air contract, our ace in the hole! Four extra days by each Polaroid could have covered it. It was very regular scheduled flying.
The 2005 strike was as much a lockout as a srike. All Polar planes were parked, so of course you had 100%. Kinda like a whore bragging about giving up sex but not mentioning she had moved to a deserted island.
Your MEC might want to actually invole your vice-chairman and hear what the FO's really think. They might disagree with "The Polar pilot group is a solid, staunch, unified group." Most are "afraid " to say anything, or don't have a clue about what is taking place.
NOONE at Atlas or Polar is or will ever be enslaved....
This thread has lost direction again....sorry.
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6 or 30
Doesn't really matter, none would have flown. Funny how you make this stuff up to fit your responses. No Polar pilot would have worked one extra day to fly an Atlas aircraft... Again you don't seem to get it, it was in all of our best interests for you to have won an industry leading contract.
Now I see in your latest post you are adapting JCs tactics, lets split the group. (FOs not being represented) Your insinuations are total BS, as usual. We just had an MEC meeting, many FOs were present, none objected to the MECs position and direction. Infact everyone was encouraged and onboard. Polars group is 100% behind there MEC chairman.
You state that none will be enslaved, so are you saying JC is above subcontracting out our jobs?? You have some crystal ball. If you are correct then why would the company not agree to negotiate scope prior to proceeding down the path of a single CBA? I suppose you are going to say it was the Polar MECs fault again.
As for your stupidity as to why no Polar pilot crossed a picket line. 99.8% of Polars pilot group voted to strike if necessary. None of the aircraft flew because no one would fly them and management knew better than to even ask.
Now for the upcoming arbitration. The arbitrator will decide our fates, unfortunately arbitrations are always a flip of the coin. Polars case is strong, hopefully the arbitrator rules based on a legal interpretation of the CBAs scope protection. Personally I'm all for a merger, with job protections. Without job protections there will be no more jobs. Again you Whale, just don't understand the gravity of the situation and most likely have fallen unders JCs spell like your MEC. They buy you every year with there profit sharing checks, doesn't matter that you end up spending all the money on divorce lawyers, while watching your kids grow up on skype. I don't expect you to answer any of my questions, as you have not previously. Take all the shots at me you want, you just solidify my views.
Now I see in your latest post you are adapting JCs tactics, lets split the group. (FOs not being represented) Your insinuations are total BS, as usual. We just had an MEC meeting, many FOs were present, none objected to the MECs position and direction. Infact everyone was encouraged and onboard. Polars group is 100% behind there MEC chairman.
You state that none will be enslaved, so are you saying JC is above subcontracting out our jobs?? You have some crystal ball. If you are correct then why would the company not agree to negotiate scope prior to proceeding down the path of a single CBA? I suppose you are going to say it was the Polar MECs fault again.
As for your stupidity as to why no Polar pilot crossed a picket line. 99.8% of Polars pilot group voted to strike if necessary. None of the aircraft flew because no one would fly them and management knew better than to even ask.
Now for the upcoming arbitration. The arbitrator will decide our fates, unfortunately arbitrations are always a flip of the coin. Polars case is strong, hopefully the arbitrator rules based on a legal interpretation of the CBAs scope protection. Personally I'm all for a merger, with job protections. Without job protections there will be no more jobs. Again you Whale, just don't understand the gravity of the situation and most likely have fallen unders JCs spell like your MEC. They buy you every year with there profit sharing checks, doesn't matter that you end up spending all the money on divorce lawyers, while watching your kids grow up on skype. I don't expect you to answer any of my questions, as you have not previously. Take all the shots at me you want, you just solidify my views.