Polar Arbitration III(a)
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I suggest you check with Larry L. on this one before you get yourselves and ALPA embroiled in another lawsuit.
If an Atlas pilot decided to jumpseat to benefit himself, no matter if he has gateway or not, it is not against ALPA jumpseat policy. When an Atlas pilot is given a gateway ticket to his base he is charged tax on the price of the ticket (the price of the ticket is seen by the IRS as "imputed" income). Often times, when there are no other seats (such as to ANC in the summer or MIA during spring break) the company buys him a high dollar first class ticket. There have been cases where the Atlas crewmember, who has to pay taxes out of his paycheck on such a ticket, has not recieved a paycheck at all - due to the taxes. So an Atlas pilot may decide, on his own, to jumpseat to save himself the taxes; or even to give himself and extra day at home. This is what the jumpseat was policy was designed for - to allow a pilot to save money by living somewhere that was cheaper or allowed a better quality of life. Or to allow him to remain where he was living while bidding another base. Or to allow him to remain where he was living if he got displaced. The test of the pilots actions is whether it benefits the pilot more than the company - ie. if he is doing it to benefit himself or the company. Now if Atlas "required" a pilot to jumpseat then it would be a different story.
However, this is actually what the company IS REQUIRING of Polar pilots who are riding an Atlas airplane - they are requiring you to Jumpseat on Atlas as you cannot legally Deadhead on another certificate holders aircraft. So the foot is in the other shoe now. Atlas is NOT requiring Atlas pilots to Jumpseat to their trips but they ARE requiring Polar pilots to do so. hmmmmmm...........
All the Atlas pilots are trying to do is to get this merger done. You three are actively trying to screw with the Atlas pilots career. And much like the scab announcer (did I mention we now know who he is?) are cruising for legal action - is that what you want?
If an Atlas pilot decided to jumpseat to benefit himself, no matter if he has gateway or not, it is not against ALPA jumpseat policy. When an Atlas pilot is given a gateway ticket to his base he is charged tax on the price of the ticket (the price of the ticket is seen by the IRS as "imputed" income). Often times, when there are no other seats (such as to ANC in the summer or MIA during spring break) the company buys him a high dollar first class ticket. There have been cases where the Atlas crewmember, who has to pay taxes out of his paycheck on such a ticket, has not recieved a paycheck at all - due to the taxes. So an Atlas pilot may decide, on his own, to jumpseat to save himself the taxes; or even to give himself and extra day at home. This is what the jumpseat was policy was designed for - to allow a pilot to save money by living somewhere that was cheaper or allowed a better quality of life. Or to allow him to remain where he was living while bidding another base. Or to allow him to remain where he was living if he got displaced. The test of the pilots actions is whether it benefits the pilot more than the company - ie. if he is doing it to benefit himself or the company. Now if Atlas "required" a pilot to jumpseat then it would be a different story.
However, this is actually what the company IS REQUIRING of Polar pilots who are riding an Atlas airplane - they are requiring you to Jumpseat on Atlas as you cannot legally Deadhead on another certificate holders aircraft. So the foot is in the other shoe now. Atlas is NOT requiring Atlas pilots to Jumpseat to their trips but they ARE requiring Polar pilots to do so. hmmmmmm...........
All the Atlas pilots are trying to do is to get this merger done. You three are actively trying to screw with the Atlas pilots career. And much like the scab announcer (did I mention we now know who he is?) are cruising for legal action - is that what you want?
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 7th Feb 2008 at 17:32.
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I think it is just a question that could be asked. That's all. If ALPA doesn't object then it is no big deal. However... It isn't a witch hunt with other carriers as with the scab list thing but a valid question that could be addressed to ALPA. Are the actions against ALPA jump seat policy? Obviously you do not think so, so be it; what's the problem with asking?
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Best Angle, your right, and I think I'll start my Lent thing today. It's just the sight of all those Polaroids getting all excited in the ICN crew room because they think they got one over on us.....
Rob Lilly, the Zoners were putting money in their pockets by jumpseating...a no-no. Connie was directing his guys to jump intra pattern, saving the company money, a no-no, mine was personal choice. Sometimes to save time (in some cases, days), sometimes I didn't want to go to my Gateway. Take a chill pill and call me in the morning.
Trash, go for it. It's been talked about at ALPA before. KM was our JS guy and it's been looked at, but no harm in asking.
It's Lent, and I'm outta here, back to our regularly scheduled arbitrations....
Rob Lilly, the Zoners were putting money in their pockets by jumpseating...a no-no. Connie was directing his guys to jump intra pattern, saving the company money, a no-no, mine was personal choice. Sometimes to save time (in some cases, days), sometimes I didn't want to go to my Gateway. Take a chill pill and call me in the morning.
Trash, go for it. It's been talked about at ALPA before. KM was our JS guy and it's been looked at, but no harm in asking.
It's Lent, and I'm outta here, back to our regularly scheduled arbitrations....
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I think it is just a question that could be asked. That's all. If ALPA doesn't object then it is no big deal. However... It isn't a witch hunt with other carriers as with the scab list thing but a valid question that could be addressed to ALPA. Are the actions against ALPA jump seat policy? Obviously you do not think so, so be it; what's the problem with asking?
If you are talking about the Atlas pilots jumpseating in lieu of using their gateway tickets then no because:
1. It is none of your business
2. If it was asked it should not be in a public forum
3. It does not go against ALPA Policy as long as it is for the pilots benefit. It is no different than some other freight carriers travel bank, Those pilots sometimes use the jumpseat when it benefits them - I know because I have had them on my airplane.
4. and mostly because IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! It especially ain't any business of layinlow as he doesn't even work for AAWWH anymore.
It was asked of the ALPA national JS chair many years ago (not some no-nothings on a web-board) and in fact was discussed by both the Polar JS Chair and the Atlas JS Chair. And it was asked of all the other airline jumpseat chairman. What you see above is the answer.
Guess you will have to find another way to try to screw Atlas pilots.
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"You three are actively trying to screw with the Atlas pilots career"
Wish Atlas pilots and all pilots all the best of their careers.. We, however must arbitrate to fly our own work. . .kind of like AAWW end ruining the ball out of bounds to score a financial touch down. The proper playing field is the one whose cba turf was intended to bind with the call sign.. . . . . . . Blow your whistle, Arbitrator!
Wish Atlas pilots and all pilots all the best of their careers.. We, however must arbitrate to fly our own work. . .kind of like AAWW end ruining the ball out of bounds to score a financial touch down. The proper playing field is the one whose cba turf was intended to bind with the call sign.. . . . . . . Blow your whistle, Arbitrator!
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"You three are actively trying to screw with the Atlas pilots career"
Wish Atlas pilots and all pilots all the best of their careers.. We, however must arbitrate to fly our own work. . .kind of like AAWW end ruining the ball out of bounds to score a financial touch down. The proper playing field is the one whose cba turf was intended to bind with the call sign.. . . . . . . Blow your whistle, Arbitrator!
Wish Atlas pilots and all pilots all the best of their careers.. We, however must arbitrate to fly our own work. . .kind of like AAWW end ruining the ball out of bounds to score a financial touch down. The proper playing field is the one whose cba turf was intended to bind with the call sign.. . . . . . . Blow your whistle, Arbitrator!
I know everyone wants to tell a good story here, but remembering only the facts that work for you just makes you a wanna-be lawyer. Needless to say it doesn't say much about union solidarity. "I've got mine, pull the ladder up!"
So due to some language in your CBA you think you can hold onto the work of others. OK, then I guess we will see the validity of that in the arbitration ruling.
Anyhow, it's been scheduled for April for the Company cross in the arbitration. I image the arbiter will rule sometime in May if things go as they have in the past.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 8th Feb 2008 at 05:47.
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All the Atlas pilots are trying to do is to get this merger done. You three are actively trying to screw with the Atlas pilots career. And much like the scab announcer (did I mention we now know who he is?) are cruising for legal action - is that what you want?
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"So due to some language in your CBA you think you can hold onto the work of others?"
No, however we think that we should fly at least a majority of our own AMC contract. If it is someone else's work, then why do they constantly use our flight numbers?
Point is - We've got the labor, management today bids for AMC in our name, however they have no intention of us flying it. Sound's like a CBA avoiding end run that has been fielded out of bounds. Hear the whistle?
We both know that both Polar and Atlas have each substantially benefited from ample AMC flying beginning well prior to the R Fell fiasco of '99.
No, however we think that we should fly at least a majority of our own AMC contract. If it is someone else's work, then why do they constantly use our flight numbers?
Point is - We've got the labor, management today bids for AMC in our name, however they have no intention of us flying it. Sound's like a CBA avoiding end run that has been fielded out of bounds. Hear the whistle?
We both know that both Polar and Atlas have each substantially benefited from ample AMC flying beginning well prior to the R Fell fiasco of '99.
Last edited by L-38; 8th Feb 2008 at 06:06.
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If it is someone else's work, then why do they constantly use our flight numbers?
This seems to keep coming up. Noted it on the ALPA national boards also with an ex-Polar guy. Seems like no current Polar guy will show their face there. I also noted that it was rebutted and the only flying that is done for Polar are the flights that are done due to AOG Polar flights. They are subsequently subbed out to Atlas to recover the flight which is allowed in your contract. Of course, I'm sure you would rather have the customer suffer or have it go to Kallitta instead instead of Atlas.
Looks like rob L. has a new bone to chew on. Curious who gave it to him. To bad it is on a none-issue and essentially wrong. But that won't keep him from chewing on it. I think the record stands pretty clear that the Atlas crews have been on the right side with "Battle Stars", the ADR findings on the "Scab Issue", and a number of other things. Sling as much mud as you can and see what sticks seems to be the Polar motto. Despite the initial mess, we and ALPA National eventually always prove that these stories, used as tools for getting what Polar wants, are the rantings of a group bent on the destruction of others for their own benefit. Usually requiring ALPA National to apologize for Polar actions as in the past.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 8th Feb 2008 at 11:08.
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Rob Lilly
I would suggest you call Larry before you attempt to use what little knowledge you have of the jumpseat world and get yourself in trouble. We also know who you are so I am not sure why you continue to hide behind a screen name and refuse to take this discussion to the ALPA boards where it really belongs.
I would suggest you call Larry before you attempt to use what little knowledge you have of the jumpseat world and get yourself in trouble. We also know who you are so I am not sure why you continue to hide behind a screen name and refuse to take this discussion to the ALPA boards where it really belongs.
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On behalf of professional pilots everywhere, it's time for Polar pilots to quick pissing and moaning about ancient history and time for the few to stop stirring the pot. Get over it, merge, unify, keep your Scope protections and get an industry leading contract for what is a great group of pilots (both sides). For starters, how about demanding Cato's termination as a bargaining chip? If Atlas and Polar guys would do their homework, they would see that that has been sucessfully done in the past more times than not. After that, fight to mix the Atlas pay scale with the Polar work rules. Bottom line is this: Dividing the pilot groups is apparantly the goal of the management. To keep the infighting alive is to play into their hands.
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Rob Lilly
I would suggest you call Larry before you attempt to use what little knowledge you have of the jumpseat world and get yourself in trouble. We also know who you are so I am not sure why you continue to hide behind a screen name and refuse to take this discussion to the ALPA boards where it really belongs.
I would suggest you call Larry before you attempt to use what little knowledge you have of the jumpseat world and get yourself in trouble. We also know who you are so I am not sure why you continue to hide behind a screen name and refuse to take this discussion to the ALPA boards where it really belongs.
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"Get over it, merge, unify, keep your Scope protections and get an industry leading contract for what is a great group of pilots (both sides). For starters, how about demanding Cato's termination as a bargaining chip? If Atlas and Polar guys would do their homework, they would see that that has been sucessfully done in the past more times than not."
UPS FR8, You are not privy to the requirements laid out in the ALPA Merger Policy. Merged contracts are not done under Section 6 of the RLA like usual contract amendments. A merged contract will be settled at arbitration if necessary. There are no bargaining chips. Right now Polar has good scope, there is no guarantee that we will emerge with good scope. AAWH wants to run two seperate airlines with one merged crew force. They don't want the crews to be tied to the certificates. Without scope where would we be left if they decide to sell off one of the airlines? Answer: on the street.
PS. Even if we could, why use up a chip to get rid of Cato? Eventually his antics will cost the Company more money than he saves and he will "leave to pursue other interests."
UPS FR8, You are not privy to the requirements laid out in the ALPA Merger Policy. Merged contracts are not done under Section 6 of the RLA like usual contract amendments. A merged contract will be settled at arbitration if necessary. There are no bargaining chips. Right now Polar has good scope, there is no guarantee that we will emerge with good scope. AAWH wants to run two seperate airlines with one merged crew force. They don't want the crews to be tied to the certificates. Without scope where would we be left if they decide to sell off one of the airlines? Answer: on the street.
PS. Even if we could, why use up a chip to get rid of Cato? Eventually his antics will cost the Company more money than he saves and he will "leave to pursue other interests."
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Just read a copy of the recent Polar VARS and Polar Neg. Committee messages. Compared it to the ALPA National Executive Council resolution ordering Atlas and Polar crew forces together to negotiate for the upcoming merger. The Polar message and the ALPA National resolution seem to say completely different things. Even had my wife read them to see if I was seeing things. Even she said "WTF - over". Looks like more wasted Atlas crewmember time and money while one side continues their dream.
Last edited by nitty-gritty; 15th Feb 2008 at 21:05.
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This seems pretty straight forward to me and is pretty much what all the Atlas crewmembers posting on here have been saying for a couple of years.
Atlas pilots do not wish any ill on the Polar pilots at all despite the sacrifices they have endured for, and the abuse they have suffered at the hands of, Polar crewmembers. It is just time to finish the merger. Get it done. The whole company is merged except for the pilots - and that is due to the Polar MEC, and only the Polar MEC.
From the CEO of Atlas – in his 2/14/2008 letter to Atlas and Polar Crewmembers;
From the VP of Operations August 2007:
Atlas pilots do not wish any ill on the Polar pilots at all despite the sacrifices they have endured for, and the abuse they have suffered at the hands of, Polar crewmembers. It is just time to finish the merger. Get it done. The whole company is merged except for the pilots - and that is due to the Polar MEC, and only the Polar MEC.
From the CEO of Atlas – in his 2/14/2008 letter to Atlas and Polar Crewmembers;
“…Despite what some continue to assert, the merger has not been called off – the Company remains committed to completing it as soon as possible.
Since my appointment as CEO I have continuously expressed what I sincerely believe to be true – merging the Atlas and Polar crew forces is in everyone’s best interests. For both our Atlas and Polar Crewmembers it makes no sense to continue to battle – whether through arbitrations or even separate negotiations – for the right to the same aircraft and flying. For our Polar Crewmembers in particular it makes no sense to be restricted to a fleet of only six and one-half aircraft, without the real potential for growth that exists at Atlas as we add both -400 aircraft and the new -8 aircraft to meet the continued demand for ACMI flying, including the further ACMI opportunities with DHL Express. And for the Company it makes no sense not to have the efficiencies attendant to a merged crew force. More simply put, from any reasonable perspective this is one occasion where labor and management’s interests are the same.”
Since my appointment as CEO I have continuously expressed what I sincerely believe to be true – merging the Atlas and Polar crew forces is in everyone’s best interests. For both our Atlas and Polar Crewmembers it makes no sense to continue to battle – whether through arbitrations or even separate negotiations – for the right to the same aircraft and flying. For our Polar Crewmembers in particular it makes no sense to be restricted to a fleet of only six and one-half aircraft, without the real potential for growth that exists at Atlas as we add both -400 aircraft and the new -8 aircraft to meet the continued demand for ACMI flying, including the further ACMI opportunities with DHL Express. And for the Company it makes no sense not to have the efficiencies attendant to a merged crew force. More simply put, from any reasonable perspective this is one occasion where labor and management’s interests are the same.”
“…Our responses were unequivocal – there were no plans to sell or otherwise spin-off Polar. However, to maximize the value in Polar - where as a standalone airline it had never been profitable – an investment partner in Polar was quite likely.” ….
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Originally Posted by rob rilly
Just keep reading and believing J.C. & D.B. and you will stay confused. Everyone listens to their Atlas VARS B.S. too.