Polar Arbitration III(a)
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Originally Posted by cptvac and for the most part rob rilly and Lancedvr
you too can sign your own posts even on this forum. Or did your Mama name you Whale?
The Atlas crew side has at least gone onto the ALPA National Boards in which their names are in full view of all ALPA members. That cannot be said of the Polar side. Only an ex-Polar guy who has now withdrawn after realizing his misinformation and an ex-Polar MEC Vice Chairman to say he knew nothing after the ALPA board ruling on Polar's filing of false charges showed up and quickly withdrew after his excuse of ignorance. Log on and use the search function for "Atlas" or "Polar".
As to the arbitration being put off till the 19th, that had a lot not mentioned of the events. I won't go into myself since you will not like the answer, which it will only prolong this thread. You should be more interested in what the ALPA Executive Board is going to say in January.
交渉することを学びなさい。あなたのある議長を信じてはいけない。
Last edited by fuegolibre; 15th Dec 2007 at 13:50.
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It was nice of the Atlass MEC to send a lackey to testify on behalf of the company at the arbitration about furloughing PFE's out of seniority this past week. I'm sure he was going to tell the arbitrator about how the Atlass crewmembers were being hurt by the Polar MEC. "we cant' get rid of Standsted, AABO, our work rules suck, etc." Fact is the Atlass crews have a most junior unfriendly contract. They have multiple classes of crewmembers; Gateway/No Gateway. They have not shown solidarity among themselves, now they demand it from a Polar pilots while reveling in the demise of Polar. All the while they sell each other out for the almighty dollar (outbasing). Poor Paul. What a no win situation for him. Testify and not help the company and he is screwed. Testify and help the company he is a scumbag to his fellow pilots. Unfortunately for him, he has to actually face his fellow pilots. Couldn't any of the two semi retired MEC members make it? You know the guys who don't even remember what the cockpit of a 747 looks like. Too busy with their outside interests? When are you going to understand that Scope is the lifeblood of a union? That is what this whole thing is about. Without the protections of scope all of the work rules, pay and benefits are meaningless. Are you going to take the word of Cato, AAWH, and DHL that everything will be Okay? Check out the history of these entities then look at this link http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html. You are the frog and Cato is the scorpion.
Everyone wants a new contract, better pay, work rules etc. What you have failed to learn is that sacrifices must be made. It is hard to get what you want in this environment. Labor has few tools since the RLA is very management friendly. These arbitrations are not fun for anyone. But they are the only tool that labor has to leverage their position.
Blast away merc, looking forward to your spin on what happened this week, I'm sure you will post it as soon as Cato feeds it to your MEC.
Everyone wants a new contract, better pay, work rules etc. What you have failed to learn is that sacrifices must be made. It is hard to get what you want in this environment. Labor has few tools since the RLA is very management friendly. These arbitrations are not fun for anyone. But they are the only tool that labor has to leverage their position.
Blast away merc, looking forward to your spin on what happened this week, I'm sure you will post it as soon as Cato feeds it to your MEC.
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Not wanting to speak for anyone, but maybe the Atlas MEC was responding to the attention the Polar MEC gave to the ALPA Sponsored scab list ADR. BTW, ALPA National has certainly noticed.
Here was Polars chance of a lifetime to show the world the tons of evidence the Polar MEC said they had against the Atlas crew members. One Polar guy shows up with hearsay. So much for integrity!
Again I say, when the average line Polaroid finds out how much they've been lied to, there's going to be a lynching. That may be some of the motivation for delays? BTW, scope is just the latest delay. When and if they were to get the scope they want, then there will be something else...trust me.
Here was Polars chance of a lifetime to show the world the tons of evidence the Polar MEC said they had against the Atlas crew members. One Polar guy shows up with hearsay. So much for integrity!
Again I say, when the average line Polaroid finds out how much they've been lied to, there's going to be a lynching. That may be some of the motivation for delays? BTW, scope is just the latest delay. When and if they were to get the scope they want, then there will be something else...trust me.
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<<Couldn't any of the two semi retired MEC members make it? You know the guys who don't even remember what the cockpit of a 747 looks like.>>
Just out of curiosity, have the 2 Bobs seen one lately?
Just out of curiosity, have the 2 Bobs seen one lately?
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Can anyone tell me why the Chairman of the Atlas Air Negotiating Committee, who was to testify as a witness for AAWH against the Polar union, was at the Polar F/E furlough arbitration hearing this past week?????? 
To me, it says a lot about union solidarity for all pilots at Atlas Air.
To me, it says a lot about union solidarity for all pilots at Atlas Air.
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Originally Posted by JohnGalt
Can anyone tell me why the Chairman of the Atlas Air Negotiating Committee, who was to testify as a witness for AAWH against the Polar union, was at the Polar F/E furlough arbitration hearing this past week??????
To me, it says a lot about union solidarity for all pilots at Atlas Air.
https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/Des...cumentID=41172
Last edited by fuegolibre; 20th Dec 2007 at 05:39.
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I don't think so fuegolibre. Polar has been hanging on due to the excellent representation of our MEC. If any Atlas crews have been hurt, it is through your management. I suggest you read Miami Freight's excellent posting. It says it all. The union only wants the CBA followed and the MEC is fighting tooth and nail to make it so. What is wrong with that? If he succeeds, then fantastic, but if he fails, we all know the MEC did their best and that is all that can be asked for. You should be so lucky with your council.
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They didn't get all the witnesses done by both sides. I think the trouble now is getting everyone's schedules to match for a couple of days to finish the cross examinations (management, arbiter, and the Polar group).
BTW, the Atlas pilot rep was not there to testify despite what you have been told by Hair and Henderson.
BTW, the Atlas pilot rep was not there to testify despite what you have been told by Hair and Henderson.
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"fuegolibre" says the Atlas pilot rep was not there to testify...
So the Atlas Chairman of their Negotiating Committee was not there at the Polar F/E furlough arbitration hearings (this week in Washington and last week in NY) to testify for AAWH against the Polar union--------then what the h.ll was he there for?????? He was obviously sanctioned to be there by the Atlas MEC.
As "fuegolibre" says further, "...I guess to protect the interests of Atlas Air crewmembers..." from the bad guys at Polar. My, My, My. Can you imagine a Delta senior union official showing up at a Fedex union arbitration against Fedex and saying I'm here just to make sure, you the Fedex pilots union, don't do something to screw up our relationship with Fedex mgt and cause us harm. Pitiful!!!
Absolutely pitiful!!!!
Many allegations have been made against the Atlas MEC concerning their being in bed with Cato and AAWH mgt. Merc, fuego, and his fellow echoers say no and where is the evidence to support such an allegation.
Well-----the Atlas Negotiating Committe Chairman's attendance at a Polar-AAWH arbitration hearings speaks volumes as to the Atlas MEC incestuous relationship with their mgt.
What gives the right to the Atlas Air MEC to be a "butinsky" in someone else's interests. Obviously, Atlas Air negotiating committee chairman would not be there if it was not allowed by Cato/AAWH mgt. He was there. Cato/AAWH mgt/Atlas MEC said ok. Evidence.
So the Atlas Chairman of their Negotiating Committee was not there at the Polar F/E furlough arbitration hearings (this week in Washington and last week in NY) to testify for AAWH against the Polar union--------then what the h.ll was he there for?????? He was obviously sanctioned to be there by the Atlas MEC.
As "fuegolibre" says further, "...I guess to protect the interests of Atlas Air crewmembers..." from the bad guys at Polar. My, My, My. Can you imagine a Delta senior union official showing up at a Fedex union arbitration against Fedex and saying I'm here just to make sure, you the Fedex pilots union, don't do something to screw up our relationship with Fedex mgt and cause us harm. Pitiful!!!
Absolutely pitiful!!!! Many allegations have been made against the Atlas MEC concerning their being in bed with Cato and AAWH mgt. Merc, fuego, and his fellow echoers say no and where is the evidence to support such an allegation.
Well-----the Atlas Negotiating Committe Chairman's attendance at a Polar-AAWH arbitration hearings speaks volumes as to the Atlas MEC incestuous relationship with their mgt.
What gives the right to the Atlas Air MEC to be a "butinsky" in someone else's interests. Obviously, Atlas Air negotiating committee chairman would not be there if it was not allowed by Cato/AAWH mgt. He was there. Cato/AAWH mgt/Atlas MEC said ok. Evidence.
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First, I have no inside info on why he was there.
But, if he was there because he was present at previous proceedings (merger negotiations) that are of importance to this arbitration, why not. What, you don't like it because he may actually curtail some free wheeling spin of the truth (lying) by the Polar MEC at this and other proceedings? If he's there to maintain some semblance of truth, bravo.
BTW, Atlas/Polar is just a wee bit different that your FedEx/Delta example, but don't let that stop the spin......
But, if he was there because he was present at previous proceedings (merger negotiations) that are of importance to this arbitration, why not. What, you don't like it because he may actually curtail some free wheeling spin of the truth (lying) by the Polar MEC at this and other proceedings? If he's there to maintain some semblance of truth, bravo.
BTW, Atlas/Polar is just a wee bit different that your FedEx/Delta example, but don't let that stop the spin......
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I know everyone would love to think that there is some really deep conspiracy between the Atlas union and management, but there isn't. The Polar MEC and Robin Hair just want their membership to believe it that way.
The simple fact is, the presence of the Negotiation chair of the Atlas membership is to see first hand what can affect the Atlas crewmembers again as a result of this arbitration. Anything less would be irresponsible to the Atlas membership. It also falls very - very short of the Polar MEC crashing uninvited Atlas council meetings, phone conferences, Global Pilots Alliance Meetings with DHL, and a few others uninvited. Besides, the arbiter had no problem with the chairman's attendance.
One of the Polar council demands (#4 of 5) of remedy in this arbitration is the retaking of Atlas flying and A/C again to upgrade 37 and the rehiring of the furloughed F/E's. Which of course would mean possible stagnation at the Atlas crews council if not a possible furlough again. #4 noted here in an excerpt of Polars demanded remedy:
The contract customers and A/C mentioned are the same exact flying that was taken originally from the Atlas crews during their initial contract negotiations and then given to the Polar council as a negotiation tactic by the company against the Atlas council resulting in about 170 Atlas furloughs. Noted on slide 11 on this Click Here For Flash Slide Show(opens a new window - click on each image for next slide).
So essentially, it is like a thief that got caught stealing - went to jail and then gets out only to sue you for what he stole from you (though for a short time) to begin with in this arbitration.
I would say there is an interest in the Atlas council sitting in to listen in on what is going on. I'm kind of surprised that the Polar council has taken such a view, unless they go into the "say anything" mode again to win.
The simple fact is, the presence of the Negotiation chair of the Atlas membership is to see first hand what can affect the Atlas crewmembers again as a result of this arbitration. Anything less would be irresponsible to the Atlas membership. It also falls very - very short of the Polar MEC crashing uninvited Atlas council meetings, phone conferences, Global Pilots Alliance Meetings with DHL, and a few others uninvited. Besides, the arbiter had no problem with the chairman's attendance.
One of the Polar council demands (#4 of 5) of remedy in this arbitration is the retaking of Atlas flying and A/C again to upgrade 37 and the rehiring of the furloughed F/E's. Which of course would mean possible stagnation at the Atlas crews council if not a possible furlough again. #4 noted here in an excerpt of Polars demanded remedy:
The contract customers and A/C mentioned are the same exact flying that was taken originally from the Atlas crews during their initial contract negotiations and then given to the Polar council as a negotiation tactic by the company against the Atlas council resulting in about 170 Atlas furloughs. Noted on slide 11 on this Click Here For Flash Slide Show(opens a new window - click on each image for next slide).
So essentially, it is like a thief that got caught stealing - went to jail and then gets out only to sue you for what he stole from you (though for a short time) to begin with in this arbitration.
I would say there is an interest in the Atlas council sitting in to listen in on what is going on. I'm kind of surprised that the Polar council has taken such a view, unless they go into the "say anything" mode again to win.
My statement on my previous post pretty much stands despite how much you don't like hearing the truth.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...7&postcount=47
BTW, does anyone want the full list of demanded remedies in this arbitration that the arbiter has agreed to address in this?
Last edited by fuegolibre; 22nd Dec 2007 at 22:35.
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I do have insight why he was there. He was there to represent the Atlas Pilots and to make sure that the hearings were conducted honestly and with integrity. Something that the Polar MEC should understand as they claim that is what they do for the Polar Pilots.
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"So essentially, it is like a thief that got caught stealing - went to jail and then gets out only to sue you for what he stole from you"
Wow, what an analogy! . . . . I had thought it was more like Polar being almost bankrupt, cold and hungry, brought in from the rain, offered shelter and then raped.
An Air Force reservist friend of mine who fly's C5's into DOV, RMS and KWI had told me that now and then he hears a Polar call sign on the field. When he looks, it's always another Atlas airplane. . . Historically, Polar has flown a lot of AMC flying, and today they fly almost zero of it.
- - - - - MR. Arbitrator - Give unto Polar what is Polar's! - - - -
Wow, what an analogy! . . . . I had thought it was more like Polar being almost bankrupt, cold and hungry, brought in from the rain, offered shelter and then raped.
An Air Force reservist friend of mine who fly's C5's into DOV, RMS and KWI had told me that now and then he hears a Polar call sign on the field. When he looks, it's always another Atlas airplane. . . Historically, Polar has flown a lot of AMC flying, and today they fly almost zero of it.
- - - - - MR. Arbitrator - Give unto Polar what is Polar's! - - - -
Last edited by L-38; 22nd Dec 2007 at 20:12.
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(1) WhaleFR8 says…..”I do have insight why he was there. He was there to represent the Atlas Pilots and to make sure that the hearings were conducted honestly and with integrity….” [Sounds a little like Alexander Haig after Reagon was shot in 1981----I’m in charge]
(2) WhaleDriver says….”What, you don't like it because he may actually curtail some free wheeling spin of the truth (lying) by the Polar MEC at this and other proceedings? If he's there to maintain some semblance of truth, bravo….”
My, My, My….What idiotic, moronic, and insane statements!!!
Can you imagine how the arbitrator would react to such statements? To be told that he is incapable of managing a fair and impartial hearing is beyond belief.
The arbitrator is an esteemed and well regarded professional who has conducted 100’s of arbitrations over the past 30 years. To imply that this gentleman cannot preside over a fair arbitration on the matters at hand is totally freaking nuts. Says a lot about intellect and creditability of WhaleFR8 and WhaleDriver.
(3) fuego says…..”The simple fact is, the presence of the Negotiation chair of the Atlas membership is to see first hand what can affect the Atlas crewmembers again as a result of this arbitration. Anything less would be irresponsible to the Atlas membership.
A fair statement. If I were the Atlas MEC, I would want to know everything possible that could affect my pilots. My problem would be one of ethics. If I could cut a deal and get in bed with AAWH mgt to gain this insight, I would have to weigh the pros and cons of such a decision. The upside is I get info. The downside is that I would be negatively viewed by my union brethren in the industry for interfering in somebody else’s business. The Atlas MEC chose to get the “info” and the Atlas Negotiating Committee Chairman chose to be the Alger Hiss.
The Polar union objected to the presence of the Atlas Air Negotiating Committee Chairman at these hearings. The arbitrator agreed that this was a fair challenge and asked AAWH why this “third party” was present. Jim Cato, AAWH mgt, then piped up and said that this mole, sorry, I mean individual, was to be a witness and testify on AAWH’s behalf. The arbitrator ruled saying that if this was so, then the “third party” could stay.
So it really boils down to ethics. The Atlas MEC and the Atlas Negotiating Committee Chairman should ask themselves these questions:
--- What price do I sell my soul for?
--- How low do I stoop to obtain my objectives?
--- Can I look myself in the mirror?
--- How much do I value my word and integrity?
(2) WhaleDriver says….”What, you don't like it because he may actually curtail some free wheeling spin of the truth (lying) by the Polar MEC at this and other proceedings? If he's there to maintain some semblance of truth, bravo….”
My, My, My….What idiotic, moronic, and insane statements!!!
Can you imagine how the arbitrator would react to such statements? To be told that he is incapable of managing a fair and impartial hearing is beyond belief.
The arbitrator is an esteemed and well regarded professional who has conducted 100’s of arbitrations over the past 30 years. To imply that this gentleman cannot preside over a fair arbitration on the matters at hand is totally freaking nuts. Says a lot about intellect and creditability of WhaleFR8 and WhaleDriver.
(3) fuego says…..”The simple fact is, the presence of the Negotiation chair of the Atlas membership is to see first hand what can affect the Atlas crewmembers again as a result of this arbitration. Anything less would be irresponsible to the Atlas membership.
A fair statement. If I were the Atlas MEC, I would want to know everything possible that could affect my pilots. My problem would be one of ethics. If I could cut a deal and get in bed with AAWH mgt to gain this insight, I would have to weigh the pros and cons of such a decision. The upside is I get info. The downside is that I would be negatively viewed by my union brethren in the industry for interfering in somebody else’s business. The Atlas MEC chose to get the “info” and the Atlas Negotiating Committee Chairman chose to be the Alger Hiss.
The Polar union objected to the presence of the Atlas Air Negotiating Committee Chairman at these hearings. The arbitrator agreed that this was a fair challenge and asked AAWH why this “third party” was present. Jim Cato, AAWH mgt, then piped up and said that this mole, sorry, I mean individual, was to be a witness and testify on AAWH’s behalf. The arbitrator ruled saying that if this was so, then the “third party” could stay.
So it really boils down to ethics. The Atlas MEC and the Atlas Negotiating Committee Chairman should ask themselves these questions:
--- What price do I sell my soul for?
--- How low do I stoop to obtain my objectives?
--- Can I look myself in the mirror?
--- How much do I value my word and integrity?
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"I do have insight why he was there. He was there to represent the Atlas Pilots and to make sure that the hearings were conducted honestly and with integrity."
Isn't that the arbitrators job?
Isn't that the arbitrators job?