The Great PO/5Y Debate
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did get some of the Atlas side of the Alternative hearing evidence in lieu of the outright suing the Polar MEC and Strike Breakers Committee. No documentary evidence was produced by the Polar side during the hearing as I understand it. Just verbal testimony by one Polar guy which backed up the Atlas side of the suite.
This is a power point file in which I converted into a web flash slide show since a lot of folks don't have power point. The original had some bell's and whistles that do not convert for web presentation (sound and animation).
Click on the link and then click on the images to proceed to the next one:
Slide Show of Atlas Presentation to the Hearing Members
It has many parts that have been here before, but new stuff has been added. Guess only recent post facto discoveries were added.
I have info on the recent Polar/Atlas management grievance if Atlas should be allowed to take priority on the the merger grievance, but since I will not betray a confidence, I'll let cptvac give out that info if he so willing. What do you say "M"? I know you have it.
This is a power point file in which I converted into a web flash slide show since a lot of folks don't have power point. The original had some bell's and whistles that do not convert for web presentation (sound and animation).
Click on the link and then click on the images to proceed to the next one:
Slide Show of Atlas Presentation to the Hearing Members
It has many parts that have been here before, but new stuff has been added. Guess only recent post facto discoveries were added.
I have info on the recent Polar/Atlas management grievance if Atlas should be allowed to take priority on the the merger grievance, but since I will not betray a confidence, I'll let cptvac give out that info if he so willing. What do you say "M"? I know you have it.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Miami
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What no comment from Merc about the latest Polar VARS? It's a shame that those poor Polar crewmembers at being sooooo deceived by their MEC.
[U]I'd rather lose on my feet than win on my knees./U]
[U]I'd rather lose on my feet than win on my knees./U]
Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe thats because no one really understands what he said. I've never heard so much lawyer BS in my life. This from a guy that still doesn't understand the difference between profits and revenues. I knew there was spin due, but this one is a doosy.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My response to the arbitration is Click Here under the Polar Arbitration thread.
In Bobb's VARS, I find it really funny he thinks himself Randy Clark's best friend now while at the same time saying that their is no merger despite what Mr. Clark says HERE IN PDF in a letter to both Bobb and the Atlas MEC Chairman. Then again, Bobb and Robin are full of contradictions. Especially with the truth. Of course their is the AAWH CEO thoughts on it HERE IN PDF.
Bobb's (or really Robin's) VARS is here:
In streaming Mp3
I wouldn't call it going out standing on your feet. More like going out on your hands and knees bleeding from all of your orifices wondering who is next in line. Much like how Polar and Atlas management has done to the Atlas crew members a number of times in the past as shown in my previous posted slide show above. It appears that your Bobb/Robin team is making sure it's membership is pulling a very long jail house train.
In Bobb's VARS, I find it really funny he thinks himself Randy Clark's best friend now while at the same time saying that their is no merger despite what Mr. Clark says HERE IN PDF in a letter to both Bobb and the Atlas MEC Chairman. Then again, Bobb and Robin are full of contradictions. Especially with the truth. Of course their is the AAWH CEO thoughts on it HERE IN PDF.
Bobb's (or really Robin's) VARS is here:
In streaming Mp3
I wouldn't call it going out standing on your feet. More like going out on your hands and knees bleeding from all of your orifices wondering who is next in line. Much like how Polar and Atlas management has done to the Atlas crew members a number of times in the past as shown in my previous posted slide show above. It appears that your Bobb/Robin team is making sure it's membership is pulling a very long jail house train.
Last edited by mercpc9; 18th Nov 2007 at 16:19.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is very simple really.
Bobbrobin wanted to place the company's grievance over the (lack) of merger on the bottom of the Polaroid grievance list. This indicates to the world that he doesn't have a case - why delay if you think you are right?
The company filed a grievance over that, as the Polar grievance backlog was caused by the Polar MEC themselves (THEY have never put all those grievances forward for hearings).
The arbitrator told Bobbrobin that the company's grievance WILL go to the top of the pile.
It is incredible to me that Bobbrobin considers this a win. What is more incredible is that MF (and others) believe them. Fact is that the current Polar MEC has won only a single grievance. And that grievance caused the loss of almost all of their FE jobs. During their tenure the number of jobs at Polar has gone from over 300, to 170, with more losses to come. They have gone from 15 flyable airplanes, down to 7 - two of which are on loan from Atlas.
So tell me again who you believe? Tell me how good this whole fight has been for the Polaroids. I said this over a year ago - winning a battle does not necessarily mean you have won the war. At some point you have to realize that the company can do business how it wants. The union cannot keep a company from merging - no matter how strong the scope language is.
The issue here is that one persons pride and his refusal to back away from a statement he made to a certain VP of OPs may cause 170 pilots to lose their jobs, and is certainly causing 700 pilots to lose pay and benefits from lack of a new contract.
ONE PERSON is causing this - and everyone just sits by and lets it happen.
Bobbrobin wanted to place the company's grievance over the (lack) of merger on the bottom of the Polaroid grievance list. This indicates to the world that he doesn't have a case - why delay if you think you are right?
The company filed a grievance over that, as the Polar grievance backlog was caused by the Polar MEC themselves (THEY have never put all those grievances forward for hearings).
The arbitrator told Bobbrobin that the company's grievance WILL go to the top of the pile.
It is incredible to me that Bobbrobin considers this a win. What is more incredible is that MF (and others) believe them. Fact is that the current Polar MEC has won only a single grievance. And that grievance caused the loss of almost all of their FE jobs. During their tenure the number of jobs at Polar has gone from over 300, to 170, with more losses to come. They have gone from 15 flyable airplanes, down to 7 - two of which are on loan from Atlas.
So tell me again who you believe? Tell me how good this whole fight has been for the Polaroids. I said this over a year ago - winning a battle does not necessarily mean you have won the war. At some point you have to realize that the company can do business how it wants. The union cannot keep a company from merging - no matter how strong the scope language is.
The issue here is that one persons pride and his refusal to back away from a statement he made to a certain VP of OPs may cause 170 pilots to lose their jobs, and is certainly causing 700 pilots to lose pay and benefits from lack of a new contract.
ONE PERSON is causing this - and everyone just sits by and lets it happen.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 18th Nov 2007 at 16:36.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: atlanta
Age: 58
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The award doesnt compel the Polar crewmembers to do anything. Alright,, so its expedited. Big deal.
The Polar crewmembers have a scope clause in the contract(operational merger tied to a certificate)and we expect it to be honored.
As simple as that.
The Polar crewmembers have a scope clause in the contract(operational merger tied to a certificate)and we expect it to be honored.
As simple as that.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
5y no doubt, is populated by a few hotshot fanatics - as is Polar.
The pissing contest between these "hotshots" had gotten out of hand and should have been checked (especially Polar's retort). System wide, the remaining crewmembers on both sides were otherwise honorable. . . . . .to bad that immoral history cannot be erased.
The pissing contest between these "hotshots" had gotten out of hand and should have been checked (especially Polar's retort). System wide, the remaining crewmembers on both sides were otherwise honorable. . . . . .to bad that immoral history cannot be erased.
Last edited by L-38; 1st Dec 2007 at 16:35.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"These immoral acts on the Polar side cannot be erased".
Merc, I suspect that you (and whale) would throw a wrench into any future 5y/Polar negotiations (thereby making a future combined but cohesive crew force impossible).
It may prove futile, but I support PAC 23's attempt to go it alone.
Merc, I suspect that you (and whale) would throw a wrench into any future 5y/Polar negotiations (thereby making a future combined but cohesive crew force impossible).
It may prove futile, but I support PAC 23's attempt to go it alone.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Nevada
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With us or against us?
Well Merc and Whale you have both done a fine job fanning the flames between Polar and Atlas pilots. You've had a wonderful time twisting reality to fuel your ongoing propaganda machine. Now you are gearing up to drive a wedge between the Astar and Polar pilots. Since you are so sure of your accusations why not put your name on your posts so we can all know the geniuses behind the monikers.
Captain Henderson and Captain Hair work at the direction of the Polar pilot group. 100% of the Polar pilot group have directed the MEC to oppose the illegal merger from going forward. Our contract is quite clear on what is a legitimate merger. If you haven't taken the time to read it for yourself do it and then mind your own business. I suggest you use your time more appropriately and direct your MEC to enter contract negotiations as will the Polar MEC very shortly.
The overwhelming majority of the Atlas pilot group and Polar pilot group want these issues behind us. The company has done a fantastic job of influencing a small group (including yourself) of individuals working hard to keep the two groups from working together. I suggest you figure out who's side you are going to be on, Mgmt or ALPA pilots. Right now the majority of Atlas/Polar pilots feel you are with Mgmt. If you are so sure that I am wrong you will not have any problem posting your name here. In fact if you put your name here I will drop my resolution to file the Article VIII charges and consider you entitled to your opinion. If you do not put a name to your posts then we all know your true intention is to use your propaganda in direct opposition to the two ALPA pilot groups. This by the way is worthy of an Article VIII filing. So what's it going to be Merc/Whale, will you be with us or against us?
Captain Henderson and Captain Hair work at the direction of the Polar pilot group. 100% of the Polar pilot group have directed the MEC to oppose the illegal merger from going forward. Our contract is quite clear on what is a legitimate merger. If you haven't taken the time to read it for yourself do it and then mind your own business. I suggest you use your time more appropriately and direct your MEC to enter contract negotiations as will the Polar MEC very shortly.
The overwhelming majority of the Atlas pilot group and Polar pilot group want these issues behind us. The company has done a fantastic job of influencing a small group (including yourself) of individuals working hard to keep the two groups from working together. I suggest you figure out who's side you are going to be on, Mgmt or ALPA pilots. Right now the majority of Atlas/Polar pilots feel you are with Mgmt. If you are so sure that I am wrong you will not have any problem posting your name here. In fact if you put your name here I will drop my resolution to file the Article VIII charges and consider you entitled to your opinion. If you do not put a name to your posts then we all know your true intention is to use your propaganda in direct opposition to the two ALPA pilot groups. This by the way is worthy of an Article VIII filing. So what's it going to be Merc/Whale, will you be with us or against us?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
100% of the Polar pilot group have directed the MEC to oppose the illegal merger from going forward.
If the assumptions are correct, please post the definition. If the assumptions are wrong, please post the reality.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: atlanta
Age: 58
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Again,,, The Polar pilots have a scope clause in their contract(operational merger tied to a certificate) and we expect it to be honored.
Its a scope clause. It really cannot get anymore simple than that.
Its a scope clause. It really cannot get anymore simple than that.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If 5y's venom is as strong and as vindictive as reflected by you, merc, then a merged company (like that of Northwest and Republic) should be avoided.
It will be a miserable place to work for many years, and I'm not sure that D. Bourne's soap will get you any cleaner.
It will be a miserable place to work for many years, and I'm not sure that D. Bourne's soap will get you any cleaner.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: US
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not sure that D. Bourne's soap will get you any cleaner.
It is interesting that your post has two fonts. Kind of reinforces the idea that most of you Polar posters are just cutting and pasting what Bobbrobin are telling you to say. Can't you think for yourselves?
It is certainly NOT the average Polar pilot that Atlas pilots have issues with. In fact both sides have been very cordial when we have to DH with each other. And trust me the Atlas pilots do not want to merge - with anyone. But they recognize that this is going to happen. The root of the issue is that the Atlas pilots believe that the company will make this happen - as do the admittedly few Polar pilots I have talked to. Bobbrobin on the other hand, at various times have believed that the merger was a myth, that the company would not really do it, and now they believe that they can block this merger - it is a power play plain and simple. And all of this after at one point agreeing to the merger and in fact complaining that Bourne was THE impediment to the merger.
No, what the Atlas pilots want is to GET ON WITH IT. If Bobbrobin are so sure that they are right then why delay things like they did with the Horowitz arb? Are they going to continue to do that. Didn't they send the choice of hotels at the last arbitration hearing to the arbitrator too? Delay, delay, delay, that is their tactics. And regardless of what others think, there is no way for Atlas pilots to force the company to the negotiating table - so the ONLY way for Atlas pilots to get to a contract is through the merger. That is what makes them angry. No contract, no raise, no new scope rules, no AABO integration, no QOL changes - and every bit of it can be laid at the feet of Bobbrobin.
ALL of the financial data indicate that if Polar is spun off it will die. Your ONLY option is to go through with the merger. So if you don't want to merge then quitting is your best option as there will probably be no Polar. So why go through all this angst?
Git 'er done.
Last edited by WhaleFR8; 3rd Dec 2007 at 20:28.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: KLAX
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"It is interesting that your post has two fonts. Kind of reinforces the idea that most of you Polar posters are just cutting and pasting what Bobbrobin are telling you to say. Can't you think for yourselves?"
Ya swung and you missed, Whale. . . No joy. . . . Fact is, I have not communicated with Bobb / Robin for years (especially since I had quit as a committee chairman after criticizing him at breakfast years ago - of course he remains a hard working member of my MEC and I'm allowed to do that as it's my laundry, not yours.).
I do cut / paste my own content from mcrsft word. . . must have screwed up on the transfer however . . so solly.
Ya swung and you missed, Whale. . . No joy. . . . Fact is, I have not communicated with Bobb / Robin for years (especially since I had quit as a committee chairman after criticizing him at breakfast years ago - of course he remains a hard working member of my MEC and I'm allowed to do that as it's my laundry, not yours.).
I do cut / paste my own content from mcrsft word. . . must have screwed up on the transfer however . . so solly.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When all is said and done, I want to work for and retire from this company. I want it to grow and prosper. We most definitely need a union, but not one that seems intent on killing the golden goose.
I'm quite happy to see the Atlas MEC corral the goose
I don't see the point of the Polar MEC trying to shoot it,
to prove a point
I'm quite happy to see the Atlas MEC corral the goose
I don't see the point of the Polar MEC trying to shoot it,
to prove a point