So what's up at Polar? (Merged again & again)
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MetAl,
Couldn't have said it better. We find out about some of the "Stuff" Friday from the MEC.
If they do go thru with the merger, an arbitrator will decide what the merged list will look like. Polar will want Atlas stapled to the bottom of theirs because they are the real men here, having gone on strike and "won". Besides, it will be on their certificate. I bet we end up with some kind of ratio, and a two year seat lock.
Of course, it sounds like they'll only have nine planes, so not as many folks to deal with. I bet less than 300.
Then Cato and company will walk in and offer Polars pay and Atlas's work rules....duhhhh. That's why they wanted to stick to 10.5%. And you guessed it, when the dust settles, an arbitrator will decide.
As long as Polariods are going around with a list in their back pocket, their will be real issues around here. There will be accusations of eyedrops in coffee, luggage messed with, ect. Their MEC has to make clear that it has to end now.
Couldn't have said it better. We find out about some of the "Stuff" Friday from the MEC.
If they do go thru with the merger, an arbitrator will decide what the merged list will look like. Polar will want Atlas stapled to the bottom of theirs because they are the real men here, having gone on strike and "won". Besides, it will be on their certificate. I bet we end up with some kind of ratio, and a two year seat lock.
Of course, it sounds like they'll only have nine planes, so not as many folks to deal with. I bet less than 300.
Then Cato and company will walk in and offer Polars pay and Atlas's work rules....duhhhh. That's why they wanted to stick to 10.5%. And you guessed it, when the dust settles, an arbitrator will decide.
As long as Polariods are going around with a list in their back pocket, their will be real issues around here. There will be accusations of eyedrops in coffee, luggage messed with, ect. Their MEC has to make clear that it has to end now.
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Whale driver, Polar's MEC has made clear that it is over and we must move forward.most of the Polar guys will do that . some( like at Atlas with your last contact) , won't.
the list that some guys will carry in their pockets is a list of those guys suspended by AAWWH management for refusing to cross Polar lines. the reason they carry that list is to make sure those guys don't ever pay for a drink in front of a Polar crew ( small token of gratitude).
when it comes to the "scabbing" incidents, all the "strike incident reports" are being investigated. I believe most are not real incidents and will be dismiss.
you are right when you say that an arbitrator will decide on the "new" contract and on the "new "senority list and the time of the seat locks. however, Polar's crew staffing will remain at the current level no matter how few airplanes we fly, as long as an Atlas plane flies with a Polar call sign (part of our scope clause alliance thing).
as far as I'm concern, I heve alrady moved on and I'm ready, if we merge,to work together to achieve a better contract next time around. we can't do anything about the past but learn from it and prepare for the future.
if Polar gets sold, then good luck on your future contact negotiations.
my 2 cents
the list that some guys will carry in their pockets is a list of those guys suspended by AAWWH management for refusing to cross Polar lines. the reason they carry that list is to make sure those guys don't ever pay for a drink in front of a Polar crew ( small token of gratitude).
when it comes to the "scabbing" incidents, all the "strike incident reports" are being investigated. I believe most are not real incidents and will be dismiss.
you are right when you say that an arbitrator will decide on the "new" contract and on the "new "senority list and the time of the seat locks. however, Polar's crew staffing will remain at the current level no matter how few airplanes we fly, as long as an Atlas plane flies with a Polar call sign (part of our scope clause alliance thing).
as far as I'm concern, I heve alrady moved on and I'm ready, if we merge,to work together to achieve a better contract next time around. we can't do anything about the past but learn from it and prepare for the future.
if Polar gets sold, then good luck on your future contact negotiations.
my 2 cents
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What a Shame
This thing could have turned out so well for the cargo pilots. Defining struck work was a "bone of contention" between Atlas and Polar during Atlas' contract negotiations. During this round the Polar and Atlas MEC's worked so closely together to deal with this issue. The Polar group spent a lot of time identifying specific flights that they have historically done. The Atlas guys acknowledged these flights but came up with the best solution ever. "We can not be compelled to cross a legal picket line." What a graceful solution to a tough problem. What happened? After the strike the definition of a "picket line" was a hot topic. Shakey guidance from the Atlas MEC results in indecision. This was followed by brave guidance from the Atlas MEC Chair. (I am confused now.) Injuncitons follow. Net result in my opinion. The aviation community in general sees Atlas Pilots (except for a few stand up individuals) as scabs. ASMI (Aircraft Scabs Maintainance Insurance). Stand by UPS and FedEx.
Next step integrating two hostile pilots groups. Gee, doesn't this company do it's best to operate safely.
I think Polar is history. The law suits against AAWH and ALPA will go on for years but in the long run the Atlas crews will prevail because they have shown themselves to be the most malleable to management. Cato holds all of the cards. He loves his pilots to be subservient. Polar has not proved to be easy to deal with.
It was a brave move but futile move by the Polar pilots. Unfortunately corporate America rules.
Think twice before applying to Atlas. I'd rather have my back covered by an Evergreen or Kallita guy any day.
Next step integrating two hostile pilots groups. Gee, doesn't this company do it's best to operate safely.
I think Polar is history. The law suits against AAWH and ALPA will go on for years but in the long run the Atlas crews will prevail because they have shown themselves to be the most malleable to management. Cato holds all of the cards. He loves his pilots to be subservient. Polar has not proved to be easy to deal with.
It was a brave move but futile move by the Polar pilots. Unfortunately corporate America rules.
Think twice before applying to Atlas. I'd rather have my back covered by an Evergreen or Kallita guy any day.
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GD,
Sounds like the way to go. When I heard about the lists, I assumed the worst, thanks for straighting me out.
As for furloughs, while Atlas is doing alliance flying, AAWH "implies" your scope clause can be read differently. Check out the good ole AAWH Rumor Board, question 3042. No, I didn't ask the question. I bet the question and answer were written by the same fellow.
Sounds like the way to go. When I heard about the lists, I assumed the worst, thanks for straighting me out.
As for furloughs, while Atlas is doing alliance flying, AAWH "implies" your scope clause can be read differently. Check out the good ole AAWH Rumor Board, question 3042. No, I didn't ask the question. I bet the question and answer were written by the same fellow.
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I had hoped this had died, but it hasn't. Recent confrontations in ICN and ANC at the provoking of Polar crews indicate otherwise.
The MEC present and past at Polar (Bobb Henderson now and past Bob Fell previous) has continued a hate campaign against the Atlas crewmembers within our industry.
Despite the fact that the Polar MEC Chair (at that time Bob Fell) was willing to fly mutually agreed upon struck work, Atlas aircraft and customers, in our 11th hour of negotions/countdown to strike, we supported Polar during the 2005 Polar strike despite their complete lack of support for the Atlas crewmembers during our turn in the slot.
We supported Polar 1000% times more than they ever did us. I'm sorry, 1000% times no support from Polar is nothing. So let me say we supported Polar when they never supported us in the past. Figure the math yourselves. Of course they stabbed us in the backs on many other things, but that is besides the point.
After this, they continue a campaign of hate against Atlas crew members for them settling for less than what was offered prior to their strike despite our extra ordinary support. Yeah, I have what was offered before versus what was offered during the strike. More than one guy added it up and you are getting less than what was on the table before the cost of the strike from your paychecks and signing bonuses lost. I guess Chairman Henderson didn't mention that or he is sticking to his line of kick the Atlas pilots for Polar problems.
Here is the cut down version of the Atlas VARS in MP3 for the Polar guys that can't read.
Here it is in in PDF
Here is the Woerth Letter that goes with it.
In PDF
Polar MEC Bobb Henderson even touches on Polars lack of support for Atlas while coveting support for themselves. All while behind the scenes he was/is bad mouthing us to every MEC within ALPA that he could and to his membership. I bet this letter never made it to the Polar membership as it was agreed upon.
In PDF
The MEC present and past at Polar (Bobb Henderson now and past Bob Fell previous) has continued a hate campaign against the Atlas crewmembers within our industry.
Despite the fact that the Polar MEC Chair (at that time Bob Fell) was willing to fly mutually agreed upon struck work, Atlas aircraft and customers, in our 11th hour of negotions/countdown to strike, we supported Polar during the 2005 Polar strike despite their complete lack of support for the Atlas crewmembers during our turn in the slot.
We supported Polar 1000% times more than they ever did us. I'm sorry, 1000% times no support from Polar is nothing. So let me say we supported Polar when they never supported us in the past. Figure the math yourselves. Of course they stabbed us in the backs on many other things, but that is besides the point.
After this, they continue a campaign of hate against Atlas crew members for them settling for less than what was offered prior to their strike despite our extra ordinary support. Yeah, I have what was offered before versus what was offered during the strike. More than one guy added it up and you are getting less than what was on the table before the cost of the strike from your paychecks and signing bonuses lost. I guess Chairman Henderson didn't mention that or he is sticking to his line of kick the Atlas pilots for Polar problems.
Here is the cut down version of the Atlas VARS in MP3 for the Polar guys that can't read.
Here it is in in PDF
Here is the Woerth Letter that goes with it.
In PDF
Polar MEC Bobb Henderson even touches on Polars lack of support for Atlas while coveting support for themselves. All while behind the scenes he was/is bad mouthing us to every MEC within ALPA that he could and to his membership. I bet this letter never made it to the Polar membership as it was agreed upon.
In PDF
Last edited by cfire; 8th Nov 2005 at 17:59.
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Thanks Danny
Hats off to Danny Fine, the proprietor of this web site for his removal of the purported Atlas Scab list.
Our only hope is that Danny will divulge the identiy of the poster to the appropriate authourities.
Good on ya Danny.
Our only hope is that Danny will divulge the identiy of the poster to the appropriate authourities.
Good on ya Danny.
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No hats off for this and the guy was wrong to remove the list
It should have been left has a testiment to those brave individuals that stood up for what they believed without cowering to intimidation and bigotry.
If you want to remove your hat do so to one and all of those people mentioned in the list.
It should have been left has a testiment to those brave individuals that stood up for what they believed without cowering to intimidation and bigotry.
If you want to remove your hat do so to one and all of those people mentioned in the list.
I have to admit that I was starting to enjoy it. I had almost forgotten how bigoted those Eastern guys were before they blew themselves out of the water for example.
Then there was Tigers, Transamerica, Capitol etc all of them convinced that the management was hiding money under the bed.
Some of that was possibly true but was it worth dying for?
Then there was Tigers, Transamerica, Capitol etc all of them convinced that the management was hiding money under the bed.
Some of that was possibly true but was it worth dying for?
Top Dog
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Lets leave it at that. Its time to move on.
Thanks to the many of you who emailed me on this subject. I was away for the weekend without computer access, so I only saw the thread Monday morning. Fortunately one of the "higher up" Mods managed to pull the post. Thanks for your understanding & patience.
Thanks to the many of you who emailed me on this subject. I was away for the weekend without computer access, so I only saw the thread Monday morning. Fortunately one of the "higher up" Mods managed to pull the post. Thanks for your understanding & patience.
Last edited by CR2; 8th Nov 2005 at 08:49.
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BD,
Thats not the way to do things. Tell ya what, let's put it up to the pilots to vote. Polar stapled on the end of Atlas, or Atlas stapled on the end of Polar. The one with the most votes win. Now that sounds fair and democratic to me.
Thats not the way to do things. Tell ya what, let's put it up to the pilots to vote. Polar stapled on the end of Atlas, or Atlas stapled on the end of Polar. The one with the most votes win. Now that sounds fair and democratic to me.
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WD
Makes about as much sense as anything I have heard. Unfortunately, no one will get to vote on it. According to ALPA merger policy it is up to the merger committee to come up with a list - if they cannot do so then, like anything else these days, it comes down to lawyers and arbitrators. That is one reason why I find Furlough Fodders post so ridiculous, hence my equally ridiculous reply to him.
Additionally, there will soon be no "Polar side," it will all be ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. Something the Polaroids seem to forget is that they are owned by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. All the airplanes (or leases) are owned by ATLAS AIR world wide holdings. The Polar employees are paid by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. Both certificates are owned by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings.
Furlough food is there any part of Polar being owned by ATLAS AIR that you do not understand?
Makes about as much sense as anything I have heard. Unfortunately, no one will get to vote on it. According to ALPA merger policy it is up to the merger committee to come up with a list - if they cannot do so then, like anything else these days, it comes down to lawyers and arbitrators. That is one reason why I find Furlough Fodders post so ridiculous, hence my equally ridiculous reply to him.
Additionally, there will soon be no "Polar side," it will all be ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. Something the Polaroids seem to forget is that they are owned by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. All the airplanes (or leases) are owned by ATLAS AIR world wide holdings. The Polar employees are paid by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings. Both certificates are owned by ATLAS AIR worldwide holdings.
Furlough food is there any part of Polar being owned by ATLAS AIR that you do not understand?
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Beaver Diver
Just a question about the China route authority granted to Polar. If the company shifts all planes and crew to the Atlas ticket will they lose those rights or will they be trasferred to Atlas' certificate?
Just a question about the China route authority granted to Polar. If the company shifts all planes and crew to the Atlas ticket will they lose those rights or will they be trasferred to Atlas' certificate?
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FYI. The current straight scoop from ALPA National:
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From: "AAI072 Fastread" <[email protected]>
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Subject: ALPA, AAI MEC, and PAC MEC Statement on "Scab" lists
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Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:17 AM
Subject: ALPA, AAI MEC, and PAC MEC Statement on "Scab" lists
Memo
To: Atlas and Polar Crewmembers
From: Captain Paul Rice, Vice President- Administration, ALPA
Captain Dave Bourne, Chairman, Atlas MEC
Captain Bobb Henderson, Chairman, Polar MEC
Date: November 11, 2005
ALPA has been informed that anonymous persons have purported to disseminate so-called "scab" lists of Atlas crewmembers. Such lists are not authorized and are repudiated by the Atlas and Polar MECs and ALPA. ALPA and your MEC remind you that the only body authorized to make findings that an ALPA member has actively participated in strikebreaking activities is a Hearing Board established pursuant to Article VIII of the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws. To date no findings have been made by a Hearing Board that any Atlas crewmember has engaged in strikebreaking activities during the Polar strike. The persons who are attempting to disseminate such lists are warned that making such reckless, inaccurate and inflammatory allegations is a serious matter that subjects the accusers to possible discipline, potential Article VIII sanctions, and potentially significant personal liability. ALPA calls on anyone engaging in such acts to immediately cease this inappropriate conduct.
cc: Executive Council
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Subject: ALPA, AAI MEC, and PAC MEC Statement on "Scab" lists
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Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:17 AM
Subject: ALPA, AAI MEC, and PAC MEC Statement on "Scab" lists
Memo
To: Atlas and Polar Crewmembers
From: Captain Paul Rice, Vice President- Administration, ALPA
Captain Dave Bourne, Chairman, Atlas MEC
Captain Bobb Henderson, Chairman, Polar MEC
Date: November 11, 2005
ALPA has been informed that anonymous persons have purported to disseminate so-called "scab" lists of Atlas crewmembers. Such lists are not authorized and are repudiated by the Atlas and Polar MECs and ALPA. ALPA and your MEC remind you that the only body authorized to make findings that an ALPA member has actively participated in strikebreaking activities is a Hearing Board established pursuant to Article VIII of the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws. To date no findings have been made by a Hearing Board that any Atlas crewmember has engaged in strikebreaking activities during the Polar strike. The persons who are attempting to disseminate such lists are warned that making such reckless, inaccurate and inflammatory allegations is a serious matter that subjects the accusers to possible discipline, potential Article VIII sanctions, and potentially significant personal liability. ALPA calls on anyone engaging in such acts to immediately cease this inappropriate conduct.
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Route Authority
Non Sched,
Belated answer to your question is that apparently some route authority is transferable and some is not, and without a lot of research I can't tell which is which. Probably AAWH or the DOT can tell - perhaps you could ask them.
I have heard a RUMOR that the China routes may be transferable. For example if Atlas were to sell Polar to UPS it would probably be for the China route authority, thus allowing them to compete with FedEx. However, I wonder if the aircraft leases and the route authority would be utilized by UPS and the Polar pilot group go the way other UPS purchases have gone.
Others have told me that some route authority can be transfered within the business. So it is possible that the China, Japan, or SA routes could also be transferred to Atlas from Polar (or Vice Versa).
Having said all that, it appears that in most cases the route authority follows the certificate. This is one reason AAWH has said the Polar certificate will be the "surviving certificate." However, AAWWH has proven itself adept at creative accounting, so it would not be a stretch to think that creative certificate and route authority manipulation is out of the question.
I guess the short answer is - who knows - best bet if you work for Polar OR Atlas is to have your CV polished and ready to mail.
bd
Belated answer to your question is that apparently some route authority is transferable and some is not, and without a lot of research I can't tell which is which. Probably AAWH or the DOT can tell - perhaps you could ask them.
I have heard a RUMOR that the China routes may be transferable. For example if Atlas were to sell Polar to UPS it would probably be for the China route authority, thus allowing them to compete with FedEx. However, I wonder if the aircraft leases and the route authority would be utilized by UPS and the Polar pilot group go the way other UPS purchases have gone.
Others have told me that some route authority can be transfered within the business. So it is possible that the China, Japan, or SA routes could also be transferred to Atlas from Polar (or Vice Versa).
Having said all that, it appears that in most cases the route authority follows the certificate. This is one reason AAWH has said the Polar certificate will be the "surviving certificate." However, AAWWH has proven itself adept at creative accounting, so it would not be a stretch to think that creative certificate and route authority manipulation is out of the question.
I guess the short answer is - who knows - best bet if you work for Polar OR Atlas is to have your CV polished and ready to mail.
bd
Last edited by Beaver Driver; 15th Nov 2005 at 05:45.
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Lack of faith in the managment team in place, is more like it. If they spent half as much effort in growing the business as they did in fighting labor, they would have to turn down work, and be hiring like crazy.
Instead, they spend ten million to keep the employees from getting one million.
Instead, they spend ten million to keep the employees from getting one million.