Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

PR Holders Verses Work Permits

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

PR Holders Verses Work Permits

Old 16th May 2020, 17:14
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 32
Originally Posted by doolay View Post
Each seperate COS has a Redundancy Clasue that specifically mentions the CPA Common Redundancy List and specifically points to Last In First Out in event of Redundancies.
Does it now...?
YeahNahYeah is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 17:43
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by YeahNahYeah View Post
Does it now...?
Precisely.

How can you have anything but complete respect for leaders who stress midweek not to believe the media or rumors but to rely on official company correspondence whilst simultaneously secretly amending the contract weíll probably be presented with while telling us nothing about the change, itís necessity or how it may affect us.

I for one have complete faith the jellyfish will stand up for his pilots with the same fortitude he always has.

Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 17th May 2020 at 00:33.
Progress Wanchai is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 18:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 819
So, the first domino falls. I agree that the surreptitious way this was accomplished is in line with the normal cretinous way this company does things (that would be you Tom). Regardless, the likely events this week will probably include the following:

1) closure of bases
2) new COS20 for everyone. You can sign or resign. They did this in 99. I find it hard to believe they won't go down that road again.
3) new COS does not have a redundancy clause. Therefore be very careful about signing. It is likely they will cherry pick the pilots they want (eg: 747 pilots are bullet proof...but will be on the lower pay and benefits of the new COS).
4) likely will offer a meager redundancy package for the senior people. Once they have established numbers, they will then lay off based on point 3 above.

Do I have any specific knowledge...small bits and pieces. Do I have the big picture...no (and I hope I am wrong on every point). I can certainly tell you though that there are big changes coming this week or next. I think this first move by the company clearly shows they are going to handle it in their usual draconian and thoughtless fashion. Tom, I might remind you of the term "unintended consequence". You'll be learning that no doubt over the next while (but don't worry everyone, he'll be protect as a Swire prince...he'll be fine).
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 18:51
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: London
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
So, the first domino falls. I agree that the surreptitious way this was accomplished is in line with the normal cretinous way this company does things (that would be you Tom). Regardless, the likely events this week will probably include the following:

1) closure of bases
2) new COS20 for everyone. You can sign or resign. They did this in 99. I find it hard to believe they won't go down that road again.
3) new COS does not have a redundancy clause. Therefore be very careful about signing. It is likely they will cherry pick the pilots they want (eg: 747 pilots are bullet proof...but will be on the lower pay and benefits of the new COS).
4) likely will offer a meager redundancy package for the senior people. Once they have established numbers, they will then lay off based on point 3 above.

Do I have any specific knowledge...small bits and pieces. Do I have the big picture...no (and I hope I am wrong on every point). I can certainly tell you though that there are big changes coming this week or next. I think this first move by the company clearly shows they are going to handle it in their usual draconian and thoughtless fashion. Tom, I might remind you of the term "unintended consequence". You'll be learning that no doubt over the next while (but don't worry everyone, he'll be protect as a Swire prince...he'll be fine).
No doubt big changes are coming the world sadly has changed...

The bases; colleagues and I have been talking this over and non of us (we are all Hong Kong based) can see why the company would close the bases, there is argument over if they save the company money or not but the basings review carried out last year was adamant that bases saved the company money and were good for the operation! Forget the money aspect they afford tremendous operational flexibility and perhaps less of an issue now with the economy but offer a marvellous pilot recruitment and retention tool.

Not to mention the immediate cost of closing the bases would be huge at a time that all expenditure is being heavily scrutinised! So in all seriousness why would they close the bases? This is further supported by the fact we have pilots right now on conversion courses to go onto bases surely those would have been stopped if they were closing the bases (I take that back knowing this mob they probably forgot)

Yes they closed the cabin crew bases in USA and Canada but that is completely different.
LLLQNH is online now  
Old 16th May 2020, 21:28
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 819
I am not trying to be a management apologist (although i'll undoubtedly be accused of being one). In fact, I have spent 20+ years fighting the management in more ways than you can imagine. Moving on: I can tell you categorically that the bases no longer save the company money. If you continue with that premise, you will completely miscalculate your response and strategy towards the managements attacks that are surely coming. I won't bother to explain why the bases are no longer viable, please just accept that the cost benefit no longer outweighs the liabilities. Fact. (if they manage to transition most if not all pilots to COS20, they will not longer have a housing issue pertaining to base cost savings).

The company has decided that they are presented with a once in a lifetime opportunity to completely restructure the airline. If you feel otherwise, please explain. Further, please explain why they wouldn't take advantage of this opportunity. Do you think they would not miss the chance to eradicate ARAPA ? If not, then explain. Do you think they will miss the chance to rid themselves of foreign bases that have much more limiting legal strictures? If not, then please explain. Do you think they will miss the opportunity to force everyone onto a new COS. If not, please explain. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that CX will not get complete support from the CAD and the Government. They will).

If this weekends change to COS18 (disgusting btw) is not a warning shot across the bow, I don't know what is. The entire industry has been devastated. CX management, based on their past 25 year history is obviously inclined to take maximum advantage of the opportunities this presents. If they didn't do so now, how could they ever again in the future claim circumstances sufficient to enable wholesale cuts to our contracts?

I am simply laying out the likely future. I am not saying I like it. I do not. It's better to face life based on reality than fantasy and wishful thinking.

Last edited by mngmt mole; 16th May 2020 at 21:39.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 22:51
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 173
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
I can tell you categorically that the bases no longer save the company money. If you continue with that premise, you will completely miscalculate your response and strategy towards the managements attacks that are surely coming. I won't bother to explain why the bases are no longer viable, please just accept that the cost benefit no longer outweighs the liabilities..

How about you put up some data to support your premise that bases don't save money? A based pilot's salary is lower than a HKG pilot's salary. There is no housing on a base. Even if the company massively cuts HKG housing, any amount will be greater than the zero housing on a base. Then there is the education allowance.

I do agree that the managers will be wetting themselves with this opportunity to shaft us, but HKG costs crew costs will always be higher than based crew costs.
controlledrest is offline  
Old 16th May 2020, 23:07
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: London
Posts: 15
No doubt that they will make changes, I can see them keeping the bases for the next few years make the changes in Hong Kong (based pilots salary's are cheap already and they have the immediate cost reduction from all the based pilots for the short to medium term In the form of the concessions that they have given the company) then no longer put people onto bases, and let them fade out, for FOs if you want to upgrade you come back to Hong Kong and join all of us on the new COs.

I believe that they even said that you return to Hong Kong on your previous contract if it is still available, well if everyone in HKG is on COS 18/20 then you can't return on previous contract as it's not available!

Reckon that the next few weeks and months will all be about Hong Kong based pilots, any decisions about closing bases will come later after the ground work is done back here in the main base.
LLLQNH is online now  
Old 16th May 2020, 23:27
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 819
Controlled. I understand my comments are disturbing. It's not my job to provide the evidence. That is the company's job. All I can tell you is that I have seen the numbers. There are many metrics that are included in the overall costings on this. The day of bases being a cost effective entity are over. I don't like that fact any more than you obviously do. I might add; once the company bullies everyone onto much lower contracts, the bases will be even more cost ineffective. Simply a consequence of the times we are living in. More to the point, once CX began lowering the overall pay and benefits of the HK pilots (COS18 as an example), it was only a matter of time before the day was reached that the bases were no longer cost effective. Needless to say, this event has brought that reality quickly to the fore. We'll see what this week brings. Perhaps our management will reign in their baser instincts and look to the long term. We'll see... (btw, the suggestion that the previous post lays out is highly likely. Bases may be tackled after HK has been dealt with. Ultimately, bases will be tackled).
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 00:53
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 305
Mngmt Mole

Your conclusion in regards of closing the bases is flawed. If management would offer a new contract to the Hong Kong based pilots to reduce cost, nothing would prevent CX to negotiate new terms with the bases as well. Donít forget the bases were the first to agree on a temporary reduction in pay last month. The base closure clause is enforceable in all base jurisdictions and would cost CX a chunk of money. Some jurisdictions have mandatory severance pay in their labor laws which would add to the contractual liabilities CX has. At least for those who chose not to return to Hong Kong.

In terms of base vs HKG cost you might want to talk to the GMA as he has the latest base cost analysis numbers which in some jurisdictions contradict what you are saying.

For pilot redundancies to happen I would expect management announce a reduction in airplanes first. From the latest communications it sounds to me that there is a great deal of uncertainty within CX how our recovery could look like. Hence the delay in talking to the HKAOA. Maybe management is cautiously optimistic and instead of achieving immediate cost savings via redundancies is trying to achieve the same with reducing pilot renumeration across the board to be more flexible. On the other hand CX rejected the government aid package and as such is free to lay-off employees. The latest change to COS18 indicates to me that possible redundancies will be not be made in seniority within that group (747 pilots might stay). Anyways, as far as I know COS18 pilots would have never been included on the official redundancy list.

But hey, who knows? One thing is for sure, no-one here on this board has any inside information.

Decisions like this will be ultimately made by the CEO and Board of Directors. Hopefully they will make their decision soon.
GTC58 is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 01:05
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 364
You're all largely missing the point of any possible base closures. In fact, it is a roundabout way to force resignations.

If I was a 60 plus year old Captain in London, do you think I would come back to HKG on the new COS20? Or even COS08 with no ARAPA. Not Likely. I would call it a day.

That's how CX would save money. Surreptitiously forcing the resignations of older pilots and perhaps financially secure younger pilots with no intention of dragging their family to the cesspit.
Flying Clog is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 01:43
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 305
Yes thatís true. But at the cost of 6 months redundancy pay and depending on jurisdiction and YOS a bunch of severance pay.
GTC58 is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 02:02
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 32
I didn't expect my question to be so prescient... which means either they read the post, though it was a beaut idea, and somehow got signoff from finance, hr, legal (+ outside counsel? and the board?) in less than 12-24 hours; or they've had it in the works for a while...

if it's the former then I would expect the due diligence to be pretty rushed! How solid can it be when the weather is this good and the kids are at home? A Pui O cowpat is probably just as valuable. If it's the latter, then I'd be looking at what they were saying or not saying at least a month ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if the goal is to get everyone on to individually negotiated contracts that get people to rely on statutory protections. There's no need for common COS if there's no ties to bind people together.
YeahNahYeah is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 02:26
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 364
Originally Posted by GTC58 View Post
Yes thatís true. But at the cost of 6 months redundancy pay and depending on jurisdiction and YOS a bunch of severance pay.
Not if the officer voluntarily resigns, to prevent a forced move to HKG against his will.
Flying Clog is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 02:47
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
Not if the officer voluntarily resigns, to prevent a forced move to HKG against his will.
I really hope the company doesn't think this way. In many of these countries there's a pretty strong legal system (some even where a plaintiff bears no cost unless the case is won) and I'm fairly certain such a thing would trigger all kinds of grievances and legal maneuvers. You can't cancel a CA simply to willingly evade the layoff in order of seniority provisions within it. Or in an attempt to stiff those with pay protection. And if this was the plan there would be a likely paper (electronic) record of it somewhere and devious plans get found out. Regardless this would be very expensive for the company.

Not to mention I'll bet such an individual would be older and older people sometimes aren't too speedy. And their parts break. So you have the potential to bring on some seriously unhappy dead weight (at least if they wanted to be dead weight) which sucks your resources down in the short term. Yes, in the long run you might get your plan but I'd bet it'd be a lot more costly than simply leaving things alone. It's sure as heck going to cost more than a year or two of pay per person any way you slice it.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 03:10
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 364
Oh, you bet your bottom dollar this is how they think. This is exactly how they think and operate.

And, of course, it does usually end up with them treading on their dicks, and in front of a court. But that's never stopped them before, and they don't learn.
Flying Clog is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 05:45
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 819
Slasher. There is not a single chance the company is going "to leave things alone". There is zero chance they aren't going to maximise their advantage. Unfortunately fate has handed them the opportunity of a lifetime. They will not fail to maximise the outcome in their favour. Difficult days are approaching.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 13:21
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
Not if the officer voluntarily resigns, to prevent a forced move to HKG against his will.
Based pilots are employed by a CX legal entity for that base. If CX closes the base, they also have to close that entity. You can not voluntary resign from a company that does not exist anymore. Base contracts have a clause that you have the right to return to Hong Kong and some even specify the contract you have to be employed on as well. Basically, you have been offered employment with a different company in a different jurisdiction (country). If you chose not to return to Hong Kong, redundancy and severance pay is required in some jurisdictions as the only thing that matters is that the company you were employed with does not exist anymore and your employment in that jurisdiction was terminated due to this.

In summary, a based pilot who does not want to return to Hong Kong does not voluntary resign when the base is closed, but only reject the employment offer for a Hong Kong pilot position. 2 different things. Labor law does not care about employment offers in other jurisdictions.

Last edited by GTC58; 17th May 2020 at 15:40.
GTC58 is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 14:00
  #38 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Docklands UK
Posts: 8
Seniority is company policy, but the basic core of Hong Kong Law states that employment preference shall be given to the local work force.

PR holders & Passports should not be made redundant when there is locally available talent to fill the positions.

If you have been let go with the recent purge at HKA I strongly urge you to take action and notify the immigration department and labour tribunal.
EddyTemple is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 16:59
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 580
Originally Posted by GTC58 View Post
Based pilots are employed by a CX legal entity for that base. If CX closes the base, they also have to close that entity. You can not voluntary resign from a company that does not exist anymore. Base contracts have a clause that you have the right to return to Hong Kong and some even specify the contract you have to be employed on as well. Basically, you have been offered employment with a different company in a different jurisdiction (country). If you chose not to return to Hong Kong, redundancy and severance pay is required in some jurisdictions as the only thing that matters is that the company you were employed with does not exist anymore and your employment in that jurisdiction was terminated due to this.

In summary, a based pilot who does not want to return to Hong Kong does not voluntary resign when the base is closed, but only reject the employment offer for a Hong Kong pilot position. 2 different things. Labor law does not care about employment offers in other jurisdictions.
Dream on... so he rejects the employment offer as designated in his contract to do exactly what for the based corporate entity that no longer exists... 🙄
Kitsune is offline  
Old 17th May 2020, 17:31
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post
Dream on... so he rejects the employment offer as designated in his contract to do exactly what for the based corporate entity that no longer exists... 🙄
In at least one of the jurisdictions offshore fiscal responsibility will eventually be tied to the parent corporation so there's no 'shell corporation' shield. The only option to evade this would be for the parent to go bankrupt and place the asset distribution to creditors (which would include obligations toward unpaid pilots) before a bankruptcy court. I have no idea how this would work or if it even could work for an entity like CX.

So any involuntary furlough out of seniority would be a huge expensive quagmire. Doesn't mean they wouldn't try it with some scheme but in the long run IMHO they'll likely lose the case. Be interesting to see what they come up with.

The easiest way to avoid the mess is simply to furlough by seniority -- which is exactly what the contract says -- and/or have an attractive voluntary package of temp leave/retirement. Which is what US carriers (who have similar seniority based contract provisions) did. There's really not any way around seniority based furlough (if it comes to needing to furlough) that won't result in legal action (which given the specifics of the contract they're likely to lose anyway) and be costly for the company in any case. But I guess it'll give something for the newly furloughed guys to do. Guess we'll see one way or another.

Slasher1 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.