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PR Holders Verses Work Permits

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

PR Holders Verses Work Permits

Old 13th May 2020, 13:57
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: May 2020
Location: Docklands UK
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PR Holders Verses Work Permits

There has been some pretty unfair treatment recently in the way HKA have laid off some of our pilots and the point being raised is Permanent Residents verses Work Permits.

The Hong Kong Government strongly advocates that employers must give first preference to the local work force for filling job vacancies.

The aviation sector in Hong Kong has largely been left alone in this area because there has been a shortage of locally qualified pilots since the inception of aviation in Hong Kong. Other industries have long been extremely protective and advocate locals first for many different positions.

The work force is shrinking and everyone is trying to hang on to what ever they can get, but if you are a PR Holder or HK Passport Holder now is the time to rejoice.

I have had numerous calls and e-mails with the labour department and immigration department this week and their stance is definitive when it comes to protecting the local work force and our rights.

Many of us have moved our families here, put children into new schools and made huge lifestyle adjustments, it is your right to be protected after you have done your 7 years, paid your taxes and decided to call Hong Kong home.

The labour department take the stance that a PR holder cannot not be made redundant when the company is still exercising work permits for other employees of the same qualification.

Get on the phone to the labour tribunal / immigration department if your company starts furloughing PR pilots while still employing others under the work permit scheme.

Hope this helps Good Luck
EddyTemple is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 00:54
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You'd be in for a long legal fight for that PR to be worth anything....
schweizer2 is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 01:33
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This will be very relevant if they close bases for those that arenít PR.
Fly747 is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 03:30
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There are essentially 3 key points that the departments pointed out to me that you can file a violation against your employer if you have been treated unfairly.

1.) Section A of the importation of labour : local workers must be given priority in filling job vacancies available in the job market

2.) Details of plan to train up local workers to fill the post(s) under application and to increase productivity (This includes retraining if necessary to fill a similar position)

3.) Number of imported workers, if any, engaged in the job titles or in the job categories

"If an employer breaches any statutory provision (including the Employment Ordinance, the Employees' Compensation Ordinance and the Immigration Ordinance), any provision of the standard employment contract or any condition of the SLS, the employer concerned may be subjected to administrative sanction resulting in withdrawal of approval for labour importation. Subsequent SLS applications for importation of workers will be barred for two years counting from the relevant date."

A two year ban on imported workers might make things a bit dit difficult when the industry ramps up again.

Permanent Resident Card holders are classed as part of the local workforce.
Discrimination or harassment on the grounds of sex, pregnancy, marital status, disability, family status and race are prohibited.

You can lodge a claim with the labour department it costs about $25. You can not be terminated until the tribunal mediation is completed and the employer is liable back payment of salaries owing up until completion of the mediation. Time to mediation Seven to Nine months.


Best of Luck
EddyTemple is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 08:42
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Join Date: Oct 2018
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Originally Posted by EddyTemple View Post
There has been some pretty unfair treatment recently in the way HKA have laid off some of our pilots and the point being raised is Permanent Residents verses Work Permits.

The Hong Kong Government strongly advocates that employers must give first preference to the local work force for filling job vacancies.

The aviation sector in Hong Kong has largely been left alone in this area because there has been a shortage of locally qualified pilots since the inception of aviation in Hong Kong. Other industries have long been extremely protective and advocate locals first for many different positions.

The work force is shrinking and everyone is trying to hang on to what ever they can get, but if you are a PR Holder or HK Passport Holder now is the time to rejoice.

I have had numerous calls and e-mails with the labour department and immigration department this week and their stance is definitive when it comes to protecting the local work force and our rights.

Many of us have moved our families here, put children into new schools and made huge lifestyle adjustments, it is your right to be protected after you have done your 7 years, paid your taxes and decided to call Hong Kong home.

The labour department take the stance that a PR holder cannot not be made redundant when the company is still exercising work permits for other employees of the same qualification.

Get on the phone to the labour tribunal / immigration department if your company starts furloughing PR pilots while still employing others under the work permit scheme.

Hope this helps Good Luck
If there were to be redundancies etc etc those who would lose their jobs would have been in Cathay and Hong Kong less than 7 years. The time that it takes to get PR! Further any Hong Kong citizen or PR holder who was made redundant due to LIFO principal and contractural agreement would be most likely a Second Officer or Junior First Officer! The company and the government in my opinion would easily be able to issue work permits to more senior pilots especially those of the rank of Captain and SFOs & RQs who would be forced off the bases if such a thing were to happen as SOs and JFOs do not have the qualifications nor experience to perform these roles (at least that's how the legal argument would be made)

Now if they tried to lay off a PR Captain in Hong Kong and replace him/her with a non PR pilot on a work permit then in my opinion your argument would have merit, I just don't think that as it stands it does.

Last edited by LLLQNH; 14th May 2020 at 09:07.
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Old 14th May 2020, 11:38
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.....and then you are given 3 months pay in lieu.....
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 14th May 2020, 15:53
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Challenging times for everyone

The based guys returning is a valid point and I'm not so familiar with the complexity of the CX employment contracts.

HKA have let go of Permanent Resident pilots of equal rank & qualification to those who have been kept under work permit sponsorship scheme. The pilots let go were given spurious reasons as to their dismissal, financial times, downsizing ect.

The Permanent Residence / National card has always been played in most nations so it will be interesting to see how well the HKG government protect their own.

Best of Luck.
EddyTemple is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 04:53
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and then you are given 3 months pay in lieu.....
That would only work with sackings. Redundancy is a completely different thing.

Be hard to explain in a court why a senior guy was 'sacked' and a guy 500 numbers junior wasn't. COS is very clear.
doolay is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 05:07
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Fellas, stop tying yourselves up in knots. It is quite simple how they are planning this. They will be closing most if not all bases. Then they will offer all of the displaced pilots a return to Hk. Problem is they will be returning on the "new" HK terms, which will hardly be acceptable to many. Many will probably resign and take the meager "redundancy package" that will be offered. Once that is resolved, they will then lay off several hundred crew. Not before firing as many as they can for the slightest disciplinary reason (and I might add...they are already doing that weekly). Overall, this time next year we will be down probably 500+ pilots. As I have said previously, the company can and should pull back from this action. Sadly, either this or some variant thereof is the likely outcome. Good luck to all.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 06:02
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Do you think they'd ever try the angle that seniority / LIFO only works for the scope of a particular COS? A is separate to B is separate to C is separate to Z...
YeahNahYeah is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 06:09
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No. There is one seniority list, and that is clear both contractually and legally.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 06:12
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Originally Posted by YeahNahYeah View Post
Do you think they'd ever try the angle that seniority / LIFO only works for the scope of a particular COS? A is separate to B is separate to C is separate to Z...
Each seperate COS has a Redundancy Clasue that specifically mentions the CPA Common Redundancy List and specifically points to Last In First Out in event of Redundancies.
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Old 15th May 2020, 07:55
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Join Date: Jul 2015
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get out there. No one force you to go and live in there.
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Old 15th May 2020, 08:50
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Not to mention that the Oz EBA was only just signed and they are the cheapest Cx Pilots in the World.......might as well leave them there and use them when they can. Due to the exchange rate a Capt on the Oz base doesn’t earn much more than a senior FO in HK and without ANY expat benefits at all. Granted a screwing for the HK guys seems to be coming and the difference will be less in future.....
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Old 15th May 2020, 09:42
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Gents, don't fall in the same bias trap over and over...

HK pilots think it will be based guys
747 pilots think it will be pax guys
seniors think it will be juniors
locals think it will be expats etc etc

Nobody knows, could be none, could be anyone

Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 11:14
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Join Date: May 2012
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yep

(my reply is apparently too short)

so, to reiterate

yep



JMock is online now  
Old 15th May 2020, 13:22
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong View Post
Gents, don't fall in the same bias trap over and over...

HK pilots think it will be based guys
747 pilots think it will be pax guys
seniors think it will be juniors
locals think it will be expats etc etc

Nobody knows, could be none, could be anyone
Wow, you got out of your usual spilt milk crying rut and put a thinking cap on. Good post and congratulations on the positive progress.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 19:46
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Thanks.

PS Speaking about progress. A further quick use of my thinking cap says me that your vote against the offered payrise cost you a minimum of 30 000 USD so far (and counting).

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 15th May 2020 at 20:03.
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Old 15th May 2020, 22:27
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Join Date: Feb 2005
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Ha, not progress after all. Just an anomalous spike. Broken clocks...
Piet Lood is offline  
Old 15th May 2020, 23:48
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Exactly! Two steps forward, one step back. Nothing a few thousand in therapy canít sort out. Otherwise, itís back to crying to mum on the telephone. Iím sure she would love to hear from her baby boy.
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