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CX SFO (main thread)

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CX SFO (main thread)

Old 25th Sep 2019, 08:34
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 543
Its been a while since they trained visuals or circuits in our rotating sim scedule. Although this is more of a question of not breaking visual contact with the contact traffic, it would be nice to get back to some more manual handling, other than the same old jet upset stuff. (And donít get me started on that bloody mouth music they make you do these days)
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Old 25th Sep 2019, 22:54
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Norwich
Age: 56
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Few of the guys I fly with have any interest/desire of flying the jet manually. Even when offered most will disconnect at a 1000 ft when fully configured. It is a skill that is quickly being eroded and there’s always a reason not too...LH sector, too tired, too busy etc. Apparently the next guidance from on high will be autopilot in at 200ft after takeoff....
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 00:01
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Originally Posted by norfolkungood View Post
Few of the guys I fly with have any interest/desire of flying the jet manually. Even when offered most will disconnect at a 1000 ft when fully configured. It is a skill that is quickly being eroded and thereís always a reason not too...LH sector, too tired, too busy etc. Apparently the next guidance from on high will be autopilot in at 200ft after takeoff....
I think it should be a convention to hand fly until clean with some exceptions (threats). On the arrival, I certainly understand allowing the autopilot to fly until fully configured because there are many more threats (than on most departures) and fatigue is quite often a significant consideration. On days when the weather is good, traffic is lite, and fatigue isnít a problem; I highly recommend hand flying below 10kí, even / especially on raw data.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 00:56
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
Its been a while since they trained visuals or circuits in our rotating sim scedule. Although this is more of a question of not breaking visual contact with the contact traffic, it would be nice to get back to some more manual handling, other than the same old jet upset stuff. (And donít get me started on that bloody mouth music they make you do these days)
Well said.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 12:30
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Oxford
Posts: 12
This thread has been a very interesting read, as someone whoís potentially considering applying for the position as a First Officer I just have one question with regards to company procedures/policy. What is the company policy on manual and raw data flying, is it allowed or are they very restrictive on it?
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 13:06
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 42
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Manual flying there are no restrictions.

Raw data is not allowed.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 15:57
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Oxford
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by SloppyJoe View Post
Manual flying there are no restrictions.

Raw data is not allowed.
Cheers for the info, it is much appreciated! Whatís the overall opinion of the skippers at CX when it comes to manual flying, is it encouraged or frowned upon?
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 16:11
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by CessNah View Post


Cheers for the info, it is much appreciated! Whatís the overall opinion of the skippers at CX when it comes to manual flying, is it encouraged or frowned upon?

Very little is generally done. Some on climb out until clean (or up through mid teens) some on arrival usually after fully configured or on or turning final. There are various reasons I guess ó not defending or not defending it ó just telling it like it is. Skippers donít mind one way or another unless traffic is busy and/or weather.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 16:34
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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I will add that there tends to be an concerted effort at CX to fine tune the profile to meet all the stated FDAP configuration, speed, and vertical speed requirements / restrictions whilst at the same time flying an efficient arrival (minimum fuel burn). This lends itself towards Autopilot and Autothrottle engaged until fully configured and on speed for landing. Iím not saying itís right or wrong, but thatís how itís typically done.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 04:41
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 527
Originally Posted by SloppyJoe View Post
Manual flying there are no restrictions.

Raw data is not allowed.
Sorry Sloppy, but where are you getting that from? While itís true that no F/D departures are no longer allowed as of a few years ago, there are no restrictions on raw data approaches as far as I know? Not that anybody does them.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 05:09
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
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main_dog is correct. and people do do raw data approaches. me for instance.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 05:22
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 527
That’s good to hear because I do too on occasion, was worried that I had missed some change and had been doing so “illegally”
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 07:36
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
I will add that there tends to be an concerted effort at CX to fine tune the profile to meet all the stated FDAP configuration, speed, and vertical speed requirements / restrictions whilst at the same time flying an efficient arrival (minimum fuel burn). This lends itself towards Autopilot and Autothrottle engaged until fully configured and on speed for landing. Iím not saying itís right or wrong, but thatís how itís typically done.

You guys must have different STAR codings? Because when in a 5 mile arrival trail, CX always seems very low on profile. Figured it must be a long haul fatigue thing not to bother with profile finesse ?

I always tell my colleagues the easiest 5 to get on command training is your raw data assessment. You know itís coming so get the proficiency with captains who are happy to let you hand fly. KA you can do them but thereís a bizarre flow chart to follow.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 11:35
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Moonbase A
Posts: 27
My personal observation is ,and sadly this comes from the training dept as well.
Hessitation to use VS in later stages of approach.
A sickening LNAV VNAV/ managed mode operation.
I got told off on a linecheck for using VS on radar vectors to maintain 3 times table.
New CX pilots are not pilots anymore but FMA observers, not looking outside
for other traffic and anticipating what could happen next.
At home base dragging a widebody in from 1700 ft flying level.
embarrasing!
And if you try to help they look at you like you committed a crime.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 13:58
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,866
Originally Posted by sjimmy View Post
My personal observation is ,and sadly this comes from the training dept as well.
Hessitation to use VS in later stages of approach.
A sickening LNAV VNAV/ managed mode operation.
I got told off on a linecheck for using VS on radar vectors to maintain 3 times table.
New CX pilots are not pilots anymore but FMA observers, not looking outside
for other traffic and anticipating what could happen next.
At home base dragging a widebody in from 1700 ft flying level.
embarrasing!
And if you try to help they look at you like you committed a crime.
This is exactly right. The problem is... the VNAV unaltered brings the aircraft in low and fast with deceleration much closer to the field than realistically occurs. I find that altering the VNAV to decelerate earlier and stay higher (3 times table or even above if slowed) helps, especially for our lesser experienced aviators. That said, I still go to VS or ďspeed on elevatorĒ the moment VNAV starts doing something I donít want or like. You can always go back to VNAV if it suits. Why training doesnít teach these concepts is beyond me???

If I were in training (which I never will), I would insist my trainees know the approximate track miles to touchdown and correlated altitude at all times. It is much the same as knowing what airport to go to at all times if there were to be a severe emergency enroute requiring an immediate diversion. At the end of the day, it is basic airmanship. CX doesnít value this anymore, they want rote seat warmers doing little more than a robot could do.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 14:08
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by CessNah View Post
This thread has been a very interesting read, as someone whoís potentially considering applying for the position as a First Officer I just have one question with regards to company procedures/policy. What is the company policy on manual and raw data flying, is it allowed or are they very restrictive on it?
No idea what your background or experience is btw. If you are used to light airplanes and hand flying (or military fast jets and/or trainers) it is a completely different environment and mission (having done both) ó no matter where you go. More of that of a systems manager with defined roles. Again just the way it is.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 15:26
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 527
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
If I were in training (which I never will), I would insist my trainees know the approximate track miles to touchdown and correlated altitude at all times. It is much the same as knowing what airport to go to at all times if there were to be a severe emergency enroute requiring an immediate diversion. At the end of the day, it is basic airmanship.
Exactly right. That and knowing the basic attitudes for all main phases of flight are the absolute foundations of our job. I must be becoming a dinosaur.
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