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CX SFO (main thread)

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CX SFO (main thread)

Old 20th Oct 2019, 04:13
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by petrichor
The "visual" reference is in relation to being visual with the aircraft on approach - NOT with the runway.
Either are an okay for ATC to clear you for the visual!
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 04:49
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rsb
I’d rate US ATC services as similar to many 3rd world country ATC services. Their use of non-standard RT, lack of empathy with non-english speaking airline crew, ridiculously fast speaking and unnecessary visual approaches for long haul airliners causes unnecessary extra RT, go-arounds and incidents.
You obviously haven’t been to LHR. Now, that airport definitely has the best ATC services in the world. And guess what, it’s limited on real estate, maxed out capacity wise and doesn’t need the use of visual approaches to achieve that capacity.


I operate A320s for scheduled pax service from KLAS. A lot into DEN, LAX, DTW, ORD and ATL. All of those airports have more aircraft movements than LHR (and, as an ex Eurocontrol trainee: on the radar every aircraft is the same size, so pax count doesn't matter). If you don't see the runway or the preceding traffic: don't accept the visual. If you see the runway and the preceding traffic and don't accept the visual: find a different career. I flew in the EU for 7 years, now in the US for 15, if you can't fly, you can't fly.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...raft_movements
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 09:31
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Thread drift: Funnily enough, Hans, once you take out LHR's night curfew, it then equals DFW for movements per hour (roughly).
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 09:52
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hans brinker
I operate A320s for scheduled pax service from KLAS. A lot into DEN, LAX, DTW, ORD and ATL. All of those airports have more aircraft movements than LHR (and, as an ex Eurocontrol trainee: on the radar every aircraft is the same size, so pax count doesn't matter). If you don't see the runway or the preceding traffic: don't accept the visual. If you see the runway and the preceding traffic and don't accept the visual: find a different career. I flew in the EU for 7 years, now in the US for 15, if you can't fly, you can't fly.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...raft_movements
Well Hans, I take on board the previous points about accepting visual separation and the wrong heading, and basically I agree. However, I venture that you are a lot more hands-on current by flying your A320 than the majority of long haul line crew. Please consider that many Captains do one takeoff and landing every 35 days and FO less so. I would change your final words to 'if you can't fly much, you can't fly much. I've been operating 4 CX types into SFO for more than 3 decades. As skills have deteriorated, I have consequently briefed to never accept accept the visual separation [you just can't follow, for example an A320 , in a B744 bugged up for 160kts Vapp ] and always brief the expected headings, altitudes, intercept and speeds which rarely vary. Finally, please don't forget you have a responsibility to safely manage ATC as well...
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 12:44
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by spleener
Well Hans, I take on board the previous points about accepting visual separation and the wrong heading, and basically I agree. However, I venture that you are a lot more hands-on current by flying your A320 than the majority of long haul line crew. Please consider that many Captains do one takeoff and landing every 35 days and FO less so. I would change your final words to 'if you can't fly much, you can't fly much. I've been operating 4 CX types into SFO for more than 3 decades. As skills have deteriorated, I have consequently briefed to never accept accept the visual separation [you just can't follow, for example an A320 , in a B744 bugged up for 160kts Vapp ] and always brief the expected headings, altitudes, intercept and speeds which rarely vary. Finally, please don't forget you have a responsibility to safely manage ATC as well...
One take off and landing in every 35 days or more for F/Os is just not acceptable, what are the CAD doing?
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 13:29
  #86 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by hans brinker
If you see the runway and the preceding traffic and don't accept the visual: find a different career.
Comments like that make you sound like a complete tosser. It is possible that the crew got a false deviation of the loc by an aircraft crossing the runway.

What they do at SFO you will not find in any FCOM as being a visual approach. It is an ILS approach with the traffic separation handed back to the crew.

LHR and DXB are the busiest 2 runway airports in the world, and they can achieve all their movements without the use of visual approach’s. Those airports also have a higher seat count per movement which is an indicator of the wake separation required.


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Old 20th Oct 2019, 13:44
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Originally Posted by swh


Comments like that make you sound like a complete tosser. It is possible that the crew got a false deviation of the loc by an aircraft crossing the runway.

What they do at SFO you will not find in any FCOM as being a visual approach. It is an ILS approach with the traffic separation handed back to the crew.

LHR and DXB are the busiest 2 runway airports in the world, and they can achieve all their movements without the use of visual approach’s. Those airports also have a higher seat count per movement which is an indicator of the wake separation required.


If CX had complied with their initial instructions there would never have been a need for a visual approach, end of story.
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Old 20th Oct 2019, 16:11
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Originally Posted by deja vu
If CX had complied with their initial instructions there would never have been a need for a visual approach, end of story.
How do you know what the crew actions were ?

None of the public domain data provides those details, you are just making assumptions. Much like the public domain data does not provide the ATC actions, or the actions (or lack thereof) of other aircraft around at the time.
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 01:46
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hkgfooey
How do you know what the crew actions were ?

None of the public domain data provides those details, you are just making assumptions. Much like the public domain data does not provide the ATC actions, or the actions (or lack thereof) of other aircraft around at the time.
I don't know what the crew actions there were, just what crew actions there were NOT. Listen to the transcript again. It was 31 seconds from the time CX acknowledged a left turn heading 010 until they asked " what was the heading again". And it got worse. I ask you what has unknown ATC actions or that of other aircraft have to do with this fundamental error.?
What is the most disappointing and dangerous aspect of this is the inability of some on this thread to acknowledge there was a mistake at all, and hence not to learn from it. I am not sure these are the people I want up front when I fly.
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 05:18
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by swh


Comments like that make you sound like a complete tosser. It is possible that the crew got a false deviation of the loc by an aircraft crossing the runway.

What they do at SFO you will not find in any FCOM as being a visual approach. It is an ILS approach with the traffic separation handed back to the crew.

LHR and DXB are the busiest 2 runway airports in the world, and they can achieve all their movements without the use of visual approach’s. Those airports also have a higher seat count per movement which is an indicator of the wake separation required.

Love tossing just as much as the next guy. LHR isn't even in the top 10 by movements.

Last edited by hans brinker; 21st Oct 2019 at 05:49.
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 05:47
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by spleener
Well Hans, I take on board the previous points about accepting visual separation and the wrong heading, and basically I agree. However, I venture that you are a lot more hands-on current by flying your A320 than the majority of long haul line crew. Please consider that many Captains do one takeoff and landing every 35 days and FO less so. I would change your final words to 'if you can't fly much, you can't fly much. I've been operating 4 CX types into SFO for more than 3 decades. As skills have deteriorated, I have consequently briefed to never accept accept the visual separation [you just can't follow, for example an A320 , in a B744 bugged up for 160kts Vapp ] and always brief the expected headings, altitudes, intercept and speeds which rarely vary. Finally, please don't forget you have a responsibility to safely manage ATC as well...
Yes, late night post. Currently bid 4 leg 4 day trips, 4 times/month, so get 8 landings per month (ask me about the time when I flew 800 legs in 6 months...). I remember doing a visual in my first year with my current operator, and while cranking it in trying to not overshoot final getting a "speed" alert (A320 telling you that you are losing energy). 60+ year old captain took control, AP/AT/FD off, assessed situation, and said, "looks good to me, you want it back?". He is my role model, and accepting skills to deteriorate because of lack of recency isn't great. Not trying to toss, but you can follow a A320, as long as you start with enough distance if your Vapp is that high. I do believe too many of us don't do enough to stay current, and I definitely feel most companies discourage pilots from staying current.


I have been looking at my reply, before I press submit,for the past half hour seeing if I can make it less offensive but not sure if I can, so sorry...

Last edited by hans brinker; 21st Oct 2019 at 05:57.
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 05:56
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OK4Wire
Thread drift: Funnily enough, Hans, once you take out LHR's night curfew, it then equals DFW for movements per hour (roughly).
You could be right, but DFW is pretty quite at night without a curfew. Would be interesting to see the hourly rush-hour rate for each.
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 06:13
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Clog
main_dog is correct. and people do do raw data approaches. me for instance.
Hollander?
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Old 21st Oct 2019, 07:54
  #94 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by hans brinker
Love tossing just as much as the next guy. LHR isn't even in the top 10 by movements.
All of the airports that have more movements than LHR do so by having between 3-7 runways. Hence my comment that LHR and DXB are the busiest two runway airports in the world.

ATL has around 180,000 movements per runway, LHR 33% higher at 240,000. The seats per movement in LHR is also significantly higher, which means greater approach separation is required.
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