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Engagement survey....

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Engagement survey....

Old 9th Mar 2019, 00:43
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 48
Posts: 193
Engagement survey....

Two years ago the survey results were so bad that it was necessary to follow up with interviews from the survey provider, to find out exactly where the root of the problems are and how things could be fixed. The result was it was so bad, it couldn't be fixed!

Last year's survey is worse! To further substantiate the survey results the most recent TA showed even more crews had been turned off and we're not swallowing the lies any more.

Now you say you are going to fix the distrust. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see it done. But the guys I fly with are either one foot out the door. Or believe nothing will change and it's more fluff. I have to agree. World wars are sorted out in less time than this industrial dispute!

I hope you can prove me wrong but as a start why not address these areas:
HKPA
Statue holiday pay.
13th month excluded from captains 2 years ago. ( That was really wise...)
Bypass pay.
Flat out honesty and transperancy.
Flights like Perth... You know the issue but nobody will actually address the problem... Instead it's soft solutions and intimidatory pressures but they don't really address the issue do they?

I am sure the other readers of this would like to add to the list.

Maybe then you won't need an engagement survey.

Please prove us all wrong and stop this ship from sinking. It might mean you don't get your bonus but wouldn't that be putting money where your mouth is. Or, "Leadership through action" in your terms. Maybe then, we would see the commitment and true value you hold for your crews. The same true value and commitment that you always speak about.

Honestly, good luck. I hope you prove us wrong. It would make you the best manager of all time and set the required direction for all that follow, and truly complete the badly needed transformation.

Also on a side note, that photo of you, I hope your ok old boy? because you don't look well?
RAT Management is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 02:19
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Bouvet Island
Posts: 104
If our Ass. had any balls, they would expel from the Ass. anyone who fills out that survey. There should not be a SiNGLE pilot who fills that survey out.

I’m not.
plainpilot11 is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 04:35
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Venezuela
Posts: 28
It's over. Most are leaving, about to leave or looking to leave. It's finally dawned on the post 49er generation that this place is shit, and will only ever get worse. POS18 etc etc
CX will be left with those who have no option but to stay.
CyberT is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 05:10
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 473
It goes much much deeper than policy. The vast majority of pilots have no confidence in the individual managers to turn this around. Yes men and blow-in's for a few years from Swire populate the 9th floor and don't have the airline as their first priority but rather their bonus and next Swire posting. On the 3rd floor are wannabee's. None with management experience just the ability to bend over and take whatever senior management want to insert so they can report back to their wives that they are management types. Pathetic.

If this airline is to survive and expand a completely new team (from outside the Swire world) is needed. Thats what AA and BA did and it worked. New blood for a new beginning not the same old same old Swire vampires sucking the life out of the company.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 05:53
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: wherever I go, there I am.
Posts: 1,895
. Why not address these areas:
HKPA
Statue holiday pay.
13th month excluded from captains 2 years ago. ( That was really wise...)
Bypass pay.
Flat out honesty and transperancy.
Flights like Perth... You know the issue but nobody will actually address the problem... Instead it's soft solutions and intimidatory pressures but they don't really address the issue do they?
These all cost money and will cut into his bonus. Instead, we get told that EFF, CMP, and EFB are somehow improvements for our benefit. They are not. They are simply work tools. And we are getting a new 'portal' that will improve communications. Wonderful, but communication is only effective if you act on it. No point just listening and then putting your head back in the sand, which is exactly what they are doing.

So you want to build trust through Action and Leadership-and you're just realising that NOW? Geezus we're worse off than I thought!

Why do we need to 'celebrate' working for an airline flying planes around the world? I just want to go to work, do my job and go home.
Pay me fairly, give me a fair roster every month that allows me a comfortable family life, treat me as a grown-up, not a naughty school boy and you will have a happy pilot. It's just that simple.

You say there are countless opportunities for us in promotional events, recruitment and International Women's Day! Gee thanks, but you do realise that we joined this airline to be pilots, not to volunteer our precious time to stand on your parade floats, or try to recruit poor saps on an ever deteriorating contract?

And as far as opportunities in training, you do realise there is a Training Ban on?

Lastly it's very hard for us to trust you when the Company is announcing a couple $Billion in profit and looking into buying competitor airlines, while just a few short weeks ago you were telling us there is 'no more money', as well crying poor and surreptitiously bringing in POS18 during negotiations.






Last edited by Dan Buster; 9th Mar 2019 at 06:08.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 06:13
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
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Excellent post, Dan Buster.
Amber Vibes is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 07:05
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 473
Spot on Dan.

Management have cried wolf once too often. Now the house really is blowing down.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 07:29
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Originally Posted by plainpilot11 View Post
If our Ass. had any balls, they would expel from the Ass. anyone who fills out that survey. There should not be a SiNGLE pilot who fills that survey out.
Disagree, The intent of CC is to not help the company to any further extent than our contract, whilst remaining legal, professional and wholly fulfilling our contract. In what way do you think that filling out the survey and telling them exactly how bad things are, and why, is helping them? It’s an opportunity to put some official numbers out there to the whole CPA and Swire community which can’t be hidden or spun showing how bad things are. If your personal non-official intent is to hamper things and make life hard or uncomfortable, then again, fill out the surveys! Just to say NO to be opposing a request is missing the opportunity to assist with the “own goal” which this survey produces, every time.

IMO, the association should encourage 100% engagement with stating how disengaged we are. Notwithstanding that, I will do whatever the Ass. mandates next time it comes round, last time it was deemed a personal choice.

White None is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 08:12
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
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Originally Posted by White None View Post


Disagree, The intent of CC is to not help the company to any further extent than our contract, whilst remaining legal, professional and wholly fulfilling our contract. In what way do you think that filling out the survey and telling them exactly how bad things are, and why, is helping them? It’s an opportunity to put some official numbers out there to the whole CPA and Swire community which can’t be hidden or spun showing how bad things are. If your personal non-official intent is to hamper things and make life hard or uncomfortable, then again, fill out the surveys! Just to say NO to be opposing a request is missing the opportunity to assist with the “own goal” which this survey produces, every time.

IMO, the association should encourage 100% engagement with stating how disengaged we are. Notwithstanding that, I will do whatever the Ass. mandates next time it comes round, last time it was deemed a personal choice.

CC means you work to your contract, no more, no less.
Where in your contract does it say "engage in employment surveys "?
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 08:37
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
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They’re hoping we’ll suffer from survey fatigue & not bother. The sycophants will always do it so the less honest pilots do the better their numbers. Just fill it out & be honest, they’ll get the message. They may not do anything about it but at least they’ll know!
Loopdeloop is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 09:01
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
CC means you work to your contract, no more, no less.
Where in your contract does it say "engage in employment surveys "?
Happy to discuss the Pro’s and Con’s of this but let’s not dress up the objection to this with it breaking CC; when the last survey went in it did not - period. Are the NC breaking CC because they are engaging with the company beyond their contract? Ridiculous I know, but state your actual objections without being robotic.

For me and the other 1580 pilots who participated last time, we judged that it was a choice, and a chance to express our discontent for our benefit.

White None is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 10:30
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Promote "feeling listened to and respected" and "building trust through leadership"... really?? Thats the sort of crap you get from a consultant who sees an 18% participation rate.

All of the real issues (mostly not mentioned in the results unsurprisingly) require money to fix, and this DFO, like all before him, don't control the money.

Chris: just tell your bosses they have massively overshot and to give you the money to resolve all of the very well documented current issues. Or this continues to get worse, parked aircraft worse.
mr did is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 11:56
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Note the Management Yukspeak;

'FEEL listened to.'

They're not actually going to listen to us, but it will feel like they are listening.
Do they really think we fall for this crap anymore?
Dan Buster is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 12:30
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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The attention to detail and outright skill at Turd Polishing is breathtaking; unfortunately we’re the ones who squeezed out the Turds so we’re not falling for it. As usual though, the double speak is probably aimed up rather than down, one can only hope that the higher powers can see through it, although maybe they just don’t care?
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 14:27
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 683
Haha..., ANOTHER survey ! If a company's success was measured by the number of surveys conducted, CX really WOULD be the worlds greatest airline. As the more eloquent above me have pointed out, this is nothing more than another deflection to senior management, who they hope are being fooled into believing that some sort of real management is being done in HK. Sadly, as someone else mentioned, the house is continuing to blow down (burn down!). Dan Buster, your post was right to the point. Shame that the AM and the CK's of the world are only listening to the voices in their heads.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 15:45
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by White None View Post


Happy to discuss the Pro’s and Con’s of this but let’s not dress up the objection to this with it breaking CC; when the last survey went in it did not - period. Are the NC breaking CC because they are engaging with the company beyond their contract? Ridiculous I know, but state your actual objections without being robotic.

For me and the other 1580 pilots who participated last time, we judged that it was a choice, and a chance to express our discontent for our benefit.

Buy yourself a boxing punch bag, hang it in the garage and take your frustrations out on it. By playing the companys management games and you are by completing surverys when they ask you to you just play straight into their hands. FOR ONCE why not do nothing and see what the management response is. How would the DFO start his letter ? Think what a message that would send. You say you filled out the survey last time ? How's that worked out for you ? Did you get your pay increase ? Did you get a change in management attitudes ? Did you get the promise of a filfilling career ? You got f***k all and still you want to play their games. Buy the punch bag.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 18:41
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Greener Pastures
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A far clearer messege would be sent by 100% of pilots not completing the survey.

It was always a complete waste of time. In my 6.5 years at CX, nothing improved - things only got worse, despite surveys and all sorts.

Simply take the 20 mins you would have spent wasting your time filling it out, and relax, have a beer and spend time with friends or family.
Roy De Kantzow is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 18:51
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: somewhere
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An Engagement Score of 18 per cent ! ! Most companies would realise that the staff/management relationship is completely and irretrievably broken. But what we get from the DFO is delusional ,disingenuous rubbish about the way forward and how many improvements have been made . While all the time he continues to create an environment where any pilot , if he or she has an opportunity to leave , cannot see a reason to remain at Cathy Pacific. Even the Chief Pilot Boeing Fleet cannot see the point in hanging around, he’s also off to pastures new.
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Old 9th Mar 2019, 19:23
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 96
The opposite of love is not hate. It is apathy.

When people really don’t give a shite anymore you are not in a good place.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2019, 20:52
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 683
Let it continue to burn. After all, the management seem to keep adding fuel to the fire.
mngmt mole is offline  

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