Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Reasons for a NO vote

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Reasons for a NO vote

Old 13th Jan 2019, 10:28
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
A strike is the ONLY thing that will restore balance to the Management / pilot relationship at CX!!!
Yes bring it on.. There are still plenty of pilots around the world who would love to take the places of the strikers.
Bueno Hombre is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2019, 13:00
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes BH, there are always pilots around who have no integrity, self-worth or character. Always been the case. CX tried it with those types during the ASL debacle of the mid-90's....and they are still trying to clean up the mess they made. It is also worth noting that a strike would never happen, because as we got near to the date, the HK Govt would put intolerable pressure on CX management to settle with the pilots and avoid a shutdown. It's just a shame that we haven't taken them on to that level...yet. As for you TB comment....selfish and immoral describes the few cretins who have broken the ban and undermined the efforts of their 3000+ colleagues who have endured and sacrificed during our CC and TB. They are the ones who deserve contempt (and which they will receive every day of their miserable CX careers).
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2019, 15:16
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Age: 46
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bueno Hombre View Post
Training Ban might be considered by others to be both Selfish and Immoral.
Hong Kong deserves better..
Capitalism and freewill is a bitch, ain’t it?

Maybe go back to the communist utopia up north if you don’t like it. Or just wait a few years longer, it might still exist and finally fully destroy Hong Kong as promised in 97. Flip of a coin really.

But with your screen name, maybe Fidel’s or Chavez’s/Maduro’s shangri-la is more up your alley? Hope you got a wheel barrow to carry the millions needed to make run to the market for a carton of milk.
Sqwak7700 is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2019, 23:39
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bueno Hombre

You really have no idea what you’re talking about. If you knew the truth you would be ashamed of yourself. I’m embarrassed to even dignify your nonsensical posts with a reply but I feel I must.

If you had paid even the slightest attention to the airline industry over the past two decades you would be aware of how much the Cathay pilots have endured. It has been 25 years of industrial attack (That’s not a typo, the number is 25). Cathay was once the most sought after pilot job in the world. Now...not so much. How do you think that happened? Who do you think has borne the brunt of that shameful decline? Any ideas?
Still stumped? Try google....

raven11 is offline  
Old 13th Jan 2019, 23:54
  #45 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lav
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@Bueno Hombre - You are not a bueno hombre. You are flame baiting, scare mongering and attempting to shape the opinions and actions of the unfortunate souls for whom PPRuNe is their sole source of information. You are encouraging those who are allegedly your brethren to put on a corporate straight jacket, eliminate their ability to earn, and be abused by the capricious whims of a venal and self-interested company. THAT IS SELFISH AND IMMORAL.

You state that, "There are still plenty of pilots around the world who would love to take the places of the strikers". Didn't the memo reach you on the 3rd floor that there is a world-wide pilot shortage? It's real and it's everywhere. I would love to watch Cathay scramble to replace the entire pilot group, he!!, even a fraction of the group. Why do you think there's no run-around CC/TB - lack of personnel everywhere! Just ask the Flight Attendants how many got sacked.

You either have zero self respect or you are not part of the pilot group.
Amber Vibes is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 00:12
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The most compelling reason to vote “NO!” Is that this “agreement “ does not fix the “trust” issue.
It certainly does NOT fix the rampant distrust between the aircrew and their employers. You get the impression that they are about to steal your eyeballs and once the peace agreement is signed they will come back for the sockets.
Reread this “agreement” again and the sense of betrayal and the feeling of being mugged just will not go away.
One percent pay increase is insulting, derisory and deliberately meant to show contempt to the aircrew. It comes at a time when the airline is allegedly making a HUGE operational profit on it’s day to day airline operations, which is the part your best efforts contribute towards. If any loss is manufactured by the accountants it is because of Management’s misdeeds and failings (fuel hedging etc, etc etc,etc,etc) , not yours. So why pay for their errors, so they can justify their huge bonus?
If you believe one per cent is what you are worth and believe that it is really all that they can afford (when everyone else got 3 percent) then you will vote “yes”.
kenfoggo is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 00:23
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There is one profound aspect to the coming outcome of the vote. It will determine, once and for all whether we are a group of professionals deserving of industry comparable conditions of service, pay, retirement and overall benefits. Or, it will determine once and for all that we are a pathetic, beaten, weak, characterless group of self-flagellating losers who basically get what we deserve. For most of us, it will at least provide the clarity as to whether there is any further hope in staying. Ironically, if the vote is majority "yes", it will be the final nail in the coffin of doubt as to whether to stay or escape for a proper career at an employer more deserving. It will actually bring on the final crisis that our mindless management are hoping at all costs to avoid, a mass and exponentially increasing resignation rate. It will be cathartic, either way. I hope and believe that my fellow colleagues possess more personal pride, integrity and self worth than this derisory offer suggests we are worth. One percent...really? If that is what you think you are worth, then give the company the satisfaction of your vote. If you believe that your professional value is greater than what this malicious, dishonest and soulless management are saying you are worth, then shove this right back in their faces. NO.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 00:23
  #48 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lav
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Excellent post Kenfoggo, but let's look at the forest through the trees. That 1% isn't part of the agreement. You are agreeing to those fascistic terms in exchange for future negotiations for that 1% payrise. In short, if this proposal gets a yes vote, YOU STILL DON'T GET THAT 1% PAYRISE!! You still have to negotiate for it. Given their past behaviour and the multitude of promises not honored what do you think will happen here? Even if there was a credible promise to give the 1%, IT'S STILL 1 PHUKING PERCENT!!.
Amber Vibes is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 04:40
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Amber Vibes, if you are going to have a rant you must educate yourself. 1 percent is the default offer if after the promised “pay negotiations “ cannot come to a better agreement. The 1 percent stands firm to be imposed unless a better agreement can be achieved by the HKAOA negotiators.
Please everyone reread the “agreement” to be sure you know what you are voting for or against.
kenfoggo is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 05:08
  #50 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lav
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Fair enough, I stand corrected. However, it is still 1 PHUKING PERCENT! If you vote yes, there is no way in he!! they will ever give you anything more than that. Why would they? You all will be totally straight-jacketed and basically enslaved. No more voice, no more leverage, no more pretense of rights or at least a contract that says you have rights --- probably not ever. There is nothing to lose if you vote no, except 1%. Where do you go from there? This is it. It's a watershed moment. You will probably never have them where you have them again, especially with market conditions as they are. All this would go away if you show them you're not afraid to take it to the next level. Just ask the flight attendants. The very idea that people need to be told to vote no is mind boggling.
Amber Vibes is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 06:48
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Amber Vibes View Post
Fair enough, I stand corrected. However, it is still 1 PHUKING PERCENT! If you vote yes, there is no way in he!! they will ever give you anything more than that. Why would they? You all will be totally straight-jacketed and basically enslaved. No more voice, no more leverage, no more pretense of rights or at least a contract that says you have rights --- probably not ever. There is nothing to lose if you vote no, except 1%. Where do you go from there? This is it. It's a watershed moment. You will probably never have them where you have them again, especially with market conditions as they are. All this would go away if you show them you're not afraid to take it to the next level. Just ask the flight attendants. The very idea that people need to be told to vote no is mind boggling.
Who in their right mind would enter into pay negotiations with the default that if agreement cannot be reached ( and rember it hasn't been reached in the last 4 years ) then the company pays 1%. The company need not even turn up to the negotiations and you would be agreeing to 1%. Ridiculous prospect. No pre-conditions, no end to CC and TD until negotiations are completed and the bottom line is 3% increase backdated to match all other CX employees.

KA DPA pushing for 0%. Outrageaous position to take.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 06:55
  #52 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lav
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Who in their right mind would enter into pay negotiations with the default that if agreement cannot be reached ( and rember it hasn't been reached in the last 4 years ) then the company pays 1%. The company need not even turn up to the negotiations and you would be agreeing to 1%. Ridiculous prospect. No pre-conditions, no end to CC and TD until negotiations are completed and the bottom line is 3% increase backdated to match all other CX employees.

KA DPA pushing for 0%. Outrageaous position to take.
Oh, that's right. The generous 1% they are offering won't even be backdated. So basically a middle finger from management for your sacrifice and toil. Contract compliance and training ban all for nought! They want to biatch slap you guys and admonish you to never try this again. It is beyond disrespectful.
Amber Vibes is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 08:50
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Who in their right mind would enter into pay negotiations with the default that if agreement cannot be reached ( and rember it hasn't been reached in the last 4 years ) then the company pays 1%. The company need not even turn up to the negotiations and you would be agreeing to 1%. Ridiculous prospect. No pre-conditions, no end to CC and TD until negotiations are completed and the bottom line is 3% increase backdated to match all other CX employees.

KA DPA pushing for 0%. Outrageaous position to take.
unitedabx,

I respect this is more a forum for emotional venting than actual discussion, but I’ll try anyway.
The HKAOA is not in CC/TB over pay (or ARAPA). Nor will it ever be again. It is in CC/TB over RP’s and HKPA. While you personally can have you’re own level of self imposed industrial action, only the members decide when AOA industrial action begins and ends and for what purpose.

Try it just for fun. Propose a members motion to add pay or ARAPA to our current industrial campaign. It won’t pass as it’ll be seen to dilute a potential HKPA increase. Look no further than the thread where a former GC member unashamedly admitted the NC/GC unsuccessfully attempted to divert a pay offer into HKPA. It’s a safe bet that given the choice, any discretionary budget surplus the FOP department may offer our way, the GC/members will negotiate/vote to have it included into the HKPA tables rather than a pay rise, or ARAPA be returned to previous levels. The robbing of Peter to pay Paul has already started and will only get worse.

The DPA can afford to do nothing as their housing formula forms part of their COS, As far as protecting xpat benefits is concerned, the HKAOA aren’t afforded the luxury of doing nothing. Unfortunately negotiations regarding pay or housing will never be enhanced with the leverage of an organized, sanctioned industrial campaign. When AT cancelled ARAPA, she understood the pilot demographics.
Progress Wanchai is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 09:32
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unitedabx. You appear to be misinformed about what the DPA are pushing for, it certainly won't be 0%. The membership have accepted this for 3 years running, there won't be another.
The upcoming 'negotiations' should be short and sweet as crew numbers are under pressure on the red side of the crew room too now.
Should a reasonable basic pay rise deal not be offered then I think the company can expect CC and a TB. Simples.
MPPCAG is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2019, 16:49
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Escaped from the Zoo
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sqwak7700 View Post
Reasons for voting no:

Just one. The company wants you to vote yes.
Nuff said.

NO.
Chimptastic is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2019, 05:31
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MPPCAG View Post
Unitedabx. You appear to be misinformed about what the DPA are pushing for, it certainly won't be 0%. The membership have accepted this for 3 years running, there won't be another.
The upcoming 'negotiations' should be short and sweet as crew numbers are under pressure on the red side of the crew room too now.
Should a reasonable basic pay rise deal not be offered then I think the company can expect CC and a TB. Simples.
And I honestly wish you guys and gals the very best in achieving that. Power to you.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2019, 07:14
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: FL310
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Chimptastic View Post
Nuff said.

NO.
can you just feel their desperation right now

NO...
BubbaJ is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 02:38
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 52
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Because if you vote Yes they gain a considerable amount. Sure, you will gain a little now. But that will not offset what they will do to you later.

Why the propaganda to sell you a Yes vote? Because even they know it's not worthy of a Yes vote on paper alone.... They have to hard sell you the reasons by conveniently only highlighting the gains.... But glossing over the pains. As well as throw in the empty promises of bases, part time rosters, w-patterns all on a proviso of course that will never come to reality.

Who reads the fine print....? Ask anyone who bought a boat in DB... Sorry to tie this in, but it's a very real example of how only focusing on the good leaves you dangerously exposed. Condolences to those affected.

Simply it's not right.

They want you to vote Yes.

Do you need any other reason to vote No.

RAT Management is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:14
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
VOTE NO, NOTHING LOST, NOTHING GAINED, but certainty to avoid the destruction of the CC/TB leverage, whatever it’s effectiveness.
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 03:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Imagine you are in a poker game with high stakes ( a bit like the scene with James Bond in Casino Royale ) and you come to a refreshment break. Before you go you display your cards to your opponent and he says "don't worry I will not remember them". Well if you vote YES that is exactly what you are doing, revealling your cards before the game is over. Keep your cards close to your chest and vote NO.
unitedabx is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.