1. Umbrella emasculates our union for the foreseeable future leaving us completely open to any new attack on T&Cs

2. Defined as a “turd with sprinkles” even by it’s main NC supporter

3. Doesn’t come close to what was polled as minimum for HKPA

4. Is a reduction in terms of ARAPA

5. Contains an offensive 1% “payrise” when everyone else just got 3%. Forget about keeping up with inflation if we accept this. In fact, forget about ever getting another payrise once POS18 get trained up

6. Gives the company everything they want in exchange for all the above

The fact alone, that it is recommended by a corrupted GC and Chairman.

I believe there is a misconception here.

The company is our employer, and we are employees.

We are not citizen in a democracy.

We do not have voting rights. POS 18 is not up for a vote.

We can only vote in an internal union referendum wether to accept the latest company offer or to continue with the status quo. The other vote on offer is with your feet. That's it. All our wish lists, our minimum requirements, our envisions of an acceptable future package, all that is just a castle in the sky. The company doesn't have to negotiate anything at all. They do occasionally sit down and talk with our representatives. It is completely voluntarily to my knowledge, there is no legal requirement to find an agreement with us under Hong Kong law.

Additionally, I warn to overestimate the power of a training ban. There are ways around it. They might cost something, but so would giving in to demands.

We are not as strong as some of you believe.
This could end in a tragedy.

The last rejection is already hurting us.
Don't make the same mistake twice.

If we vote yes we will never be able to use the training ban again EVER.

The training ban can be unhinged. Simply take enough away from the line pilots and give it to the trainers. How many would still respect the ban if it would be a way to remain on full ARAPA? How many would quit?

You guys are at risk to underestimating the powers of the other side.

STW makes a valid point.

The vote is between what’s on offer, or the status quo with its 3 amenable company policies.
The current rumor is; management believe that they’ve got very unlucky with their timing and are aiming for a NO vote, then hold out anticipating a 2019 recession, before walking away entirely (ala 2001). The one thing we’ve got in our favor is management don’t have a great track record of predicting future financial markets, although the law of averages suggests they’re overdue.

Oasis,

there are multiple ways to attack the training ban:

1) ARAPA only to trainers, rest on frozen HKPA or significantly cut ARAPA. An instant killer move.

2) Increase pay only for trainers/ reduce pay for line pilots proportional to the ratio line pilots : trainers. Cost neutral. If you cut ARAPA or freeze HKPA for line pilots only you can't even spend it all on trainers.

3) Preferential treatment of trainers in non-pecuniary areas, e.g. leave bidding, requests, basings, parking, travel benefits, part-time, seperate seniority list, fleet transfer, weekends/school holidays off, take away FOCs from line pilots and give it to trainers, 11 for their ID90 tickets, free stays at the Headland, commuting contracts etc Anything is possible. Cost neutral-ish

4) Externalise training to other agencies. I would not be surprised if they are already in talks. Offer companies like Flight Safety long-term contracts and they will invest and do the job.

5) Hire contract trainers

You could use a combination of the above or start one by one.

One way or the other, the company will get what they want in the end. If the pressure is high enough the measures could be drastic.This is Hong Kong, Ground Zero of corporate greed, a Disneyland for managers, a wet dream of every shareholder. We do not have rights worth mentioning. Our union is basically a social club with insurance benefits, no disrespect to the active members. We do not have any real power, except leaving. I don't think enough will leave.

Trainers could step back from their posts as we speak, but they don't. Some individuals already broke the ban. I don't believe there is enough solidarity among us to stop people from joining training if the benefits are high enough.

6) Mitigate the training ban by transferring aircraft between entities. Personally I doubt it makes little difference which way the vote goes, KA and AHK are to expand at the cost of a shrinking CX.

If the vote goes one way, management have a scapegoat.
If it goes the other, it’ll still happen but quieter.
The days of CX pilots flying freighters (or even 330’s) are numbered. Senior pilots, particularly captains, won’t care too much that they work for a shrinking airline that is removing the least desirable patterns. Junior pilots may be less amused.

If there were ways around the training ban they would have done so already. They tried STW. Remember the attempt with DA? All done trying to scare the kids?

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....03dbfe172b.gif


You’ve described yourself as an expat who married a local, then became sanguine to the abuse that you’ve received. You’ve claimed that you are a B Scale expat. I find it difficult to believe that a person from a first world country could be as ignorant of the global industry as you pretend to be. I don’t believe that you're a B Scale pilot. That leaves three options;

1. You’re a troll, or

2. You’re a management troll.

3. All of the above with a scab mentality.


I’m reminded of a YouTube video showing a young Hong Kong local boy crying on his knees, taking a beating from his skinny little girlfriend. She had the money.

[/QUOTE]

That’s a 2 sided argument.

There are a number of crew who are selling property and shares, converting provident fund to cash, on the conviction the economy is about to tank.
Then we’ve crew who firmly believe that time will buy us greater leverage.

They can’t both be right.

Genius.

Don’t all arguments have at least two sides ? Learning to quote on the interwebs is important too.

Good luck.

So to sum it up.

JP believes calling me a manager is much better than bringing up actual arguments, Dan likes expletives, Viking wants one contract for all (!), Cpt Underpants thinks the GC is in it and is voting in favor but actually isn't, and United is just adding insult to injury.

What a team.