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How to Negotiate

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

How to Negotiate

Old 3rd May 2018, 18:41
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 955
Well said shep69.
They're so used to lying and chicanery that it's their (not so) new baseline. They're unable to negotiate in good faith - they need counseling and therapy to recondition themselves to be honest and forthright.
The irony of this impasse is that they've made otherwise compliant and cooperative employees change our "DNA" as well, and even if/when cc ends, many of us will never answer a 2747 call unless compelled to, or click on an OCN. Ever.
Well done, Swires - you've really screwed it up this time.
Cpt. Underpants is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 01:19
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 186
A place to start: honour the agreed to 25 year housing for non-C Scale.

Next. Increase the C Scale package (at no expense to any other staff) so that existing staff are retained and applicant quality is improved. (Does CAD know that new joiners are failing 528s at record numbers and the selection sim has been made even easier to try to increase recruit numbers?)
controlledrest is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 03:06
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 80
(Does CAD know that new joiners are failing 528s at record numbers and the selection sim has been made even easier to try to increase recruit numbers?)

Sounds like something the travelling public should be made aware of..
Start Fore is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 03:41
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Hiro Nakimura View Post
Just did a Fleet forum. A Greg H came in to talk to us. Apparently he has been helicoptered in to help turn the titanic around.

What a [email protected]#$ing moron. The guy is clueless. He is a small insecure man who can't handle being challenged.

Abandon ship everyone, with an idiot like that in charge there is no hope.
Harsh, but no doubt fair.
Freehills is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 05:03
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 66
Hiro, neither harsh nor fair. Just a childish rant from you. I found the man intelligent and open. I wish him all the luck in the world dealing with the children that seem to infest the AOA.
shortly2 is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 05:51
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: nfa
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by shortly2 View Post
Hiro, neither harsh nor fair. Just a childish rant from you. I found the man intelligent and open. I wish him all the luck in the world dealing with the children that seem to infest the AOA.
Don't break your leg climbing down from that pedestal.

GH is just another in a long line of Swire managers. They seem to think they have all the answers yet time after time they prove themselves utterly incapable of understanding the operation, the competition, and most importantly their employees. They refuse to go outside their incestuous circle to actually find credible expertise and insist on merely rearranging the cards over and over expecting that eventually they'll stumble on a solution. It might work in Solitaire but not a way to run a multinational corporation with tens of thousands of employees.

He wants the HKAOA to fold its tent and take what's on offer - more specifically, give up what they're told to give. Modern communications and social media means everyone has access to information instantly and that record doesn't fade with time. No room for half truths and narrative manipulation. CX management thinks we're a bunch of mushrooms living in the dark and eating up the bs they continuously shovel. Most guys understand this and are already on the way out the door.
bm330 is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 05:56
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Not in JFK
Posts: 45
BM probably the best post I’ve read on here this year.
letsfly75 is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 10:28
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 410
No concessions, please:

Emirates to park 45 aircraft due shortage of pilots.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 11:26
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 329
Sounds like another round of “missed opportunities” for CX.

Imagine if we had a properly manned, motivated and efficiently rostered workforce that could soak up some of the extra traffic that will be in the market!

Tell ‘im he’s dreamin
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 4th May 2018, 12:49
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 5
Tell Greg there will be no concessions from any group of pilots. Further, ALL groups of pilots expect and will hold out for a proper package, one that fulfills broken promises of the past, and makes up for years of abuse and deceit from our management. If there is the slightest hint of anything less being offered, close your briefcases and walk away. Just as hundreds of our pilots are now doing. Either our management respect the value and scarcity of their pilot workforce, or they can plan a pity party with EK management and figure out a place to park all their shiny jets together.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 5th May 2018, 00:53
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: CYYZ
Posts: 69

Air France-KLM CEO to step down after employee pay vote

May 4, 2018Helen Massy-Beresford

Air France-KLM CEO Jean-Marc Janaillac will submit his resignation next week after a majority of Air France employees rejected a pay proposal in a staff-wide consultation that had been his high-stakes bid to extract the airline from a costly labor relations crisis.

A series of Air France strikes—13 one-day walkouts so far in recent weeks—have cost the company at least €300 million ($359 million). Janaillac launched the consultation in April in a bid to break the deadlock, saying at the time that he would be “personally accountable for the consequences of the vote”.

The vote period ended today, Friday May 4, with 46,771 staff on French contracts at Air France given the chance to have their say electronically on the multi-year pay proposal management had put forward. With a participation rate of 80.33%, 55.44% of employees voted "no", Air France said.

“As a result, the pay agreement proposal of April 16 ensuring a 7% wage increase over 4 years, including a 2% increase in 2018, is no longer valid,” the company said, and Janaillac is following through on his promise to be personally accountable.

He will meet the Air France-KLM and Air France boards May 9 to submit his resignation, Air France said in a statement, adding that it would be their responsibility to take the appropriate measures to ensure the continuity of the group and Air France during the transition period, with Air France management, and its CEO Franck Terner, overseeing the day-to-day operations of the company.

The "growth pact" proposal, which promised a 7% wage increase over four years as well as individual increases, included scope for adjustments if Air France's financial result was less than €200 million ($246 million) and to apply a reversion clause in case of higher inflation or a negative financial result.

Unions led by the main pilots' union the SNPL have been calling for a bigger pay increase to take into account the preceding years of stagnating salaries.

Janaillac took the helm at Air France-KLM in July 2016 and later that year launched Trust Together, the group’s strategic plan aimed at allowing the Franco-Dutch group to regain the offensive and boost competitiveness in the face of fast-growing rivals. As part of the plan, Janaillac oversaw the creation of new carrier Joon as well as the signature of a wide-ranging north Atlantic joint venture with Virgin Atlantic and Delta Air Lines and partnerships with China Eastern Airlines, Jet Airways in India and Vietnam Airlines.

The results of the vote and the departure of its CEO come on the same day that Air France-KLM reported first-quarter results hit by the strike impact, with unit costs up 2.1% at constant currency, fuel and pension charges and 1.7% of that increase related to the strikes. Operating loss widened to €118 million from a loss of €33 million in the first quarter of 2017, with about €75 million of strike impact, the airline said, while it said its 2018 operating profit would be “notably below” 2017’s because of the financial impact of the strikes, currency fluctuations and a fuel bill €350 million ($419 million) higher than the previous year.

More strikes are planned for May 7 and May 8.
Sea Eggs is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 03:25
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 66
BM. I agree with a fair bit of what you said. But you missed the point. At my FF I found the maligned gentleman open, frank, encouraging and obviously intelligent. Insecure? Not open to challenge? Moronic? OK he is a bit altitude limited. He took a mountain of flack with generosity. Anyway I completely disagree with the post against which I commented. At the end of the day, do we want to sort the problems out or not? Blithering on about no retreat and no surrender is just a part of a line from a comedy movie. The world is more complex than that. We need both parties in the negotiation/s to be prepared to give a little than maybe we will, both groups, gain a lot. And NO I am not management and YES I have been here a long time and I still like the place, Hong Kong and Cathay.
shortly2 is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 03:56
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: nfa
Posts: 124
As long as you, I and everyone else understands, the only career he is worried about is his own. His career is with Swire, not CX. If he thinks that career will be better served by selling out you, I and everyone else, he'll do it in a heartbeat and never loose a wink of sleep.
bm330 is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 05:01
  #34 (permalink)  
CCA
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Up there
Posts: 171
Shortly2 what fleet are you on?
CCA is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 07:27
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 230
Shortly2- in what specific areas do you think that the pilots can “gain a lot” in these negotiations?
kenfoggo is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 09:01
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 513
Originally Posted by shortly2 View Post
I wish him all the luck in the world dealing with the children that seem to infest the AOA.
Wow, you sound like someone with a balanced perspective.

I suppose the pilots should just give up and endure another pay cut, after a series of pay cuts and abuses over the past two decades, because to do otherwise would be ungrateful....?
raven11 is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 10:22
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by raven11 View Post


Wow, you sound like someone with a balanced perspective.

I suppose the pilots should just give up and endure another pay cut, after a series of pay cuts and abuses over the past two decades, because to do otherwise would be ungrateful....?
so I’m a SO and NO I’m not management.
All I can say is bring on a TA
SO’s will sign it !!!!!
Tired of being the losers here. I don’t see any financial support for SO’s that have there upgrades delayed to 5 years offered ?
Bring it on !!!’

#ttw for the SO’s
backtothegrindstone is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 10:40
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 290
Originally Posted by backtothegrindstone View Post


so I’m a SO and NO I’m not management.
All I can say is bring on a TA
SO’s will sign it !!!!!
Tired of being the losers here. I don’t see any financial support for SO’s that have there upgrades delayed to 5 years offered ?
Bring it on !!!’

#ttw for the SO’s
I want to get this right, you want something now for the 3-5 years you'll be an S/O and sacrifice the possible improvments that will benifit you for 20-30 years (as in when you're a captain).
Avinthenews is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 10:45
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by Avinthenews View Post
I want to get this right, you want something now for the 3-5 years you'll be an S/O and sacrifice the possible improvments that will benifit you for 20-30 years (as in when you're a captain).
wow how naive are you? CX is no longer a long term solution!!! We all know this. Clearly you don’t !!! Weldone ;-)
sign the TA
get a upgrade
get hours
get out !!!!!

Thats the way it will work.
Trust me it will happen and go through . The AOA has caused this also. Not just the company. Both to blame.

Goodbye - once I have hours to leave ;-)
backtothegrindstone is offline  
Old 6th May 2018, 13:41
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 5
He's a troll, ignore him. He might want to consider that without a deal that satisfies ALL groups, there won't be a training department left to provide him his precious upgrade. The trainers aren't going to get screwed and then happily train a group that was responsible for that. This negotiation is about righting 20+ years of wrongs. There will never be a better chance to establish a basis for a proper career than than the one we have now. Nearly all the pilots I speak with understand that, and are resolute in seeing this through to the end. Backtothegrindstone is the type of troll we can expect to hear from over the coming weeks. Our management can't help themselves.

Hang on...thought I had better add a bit of this: !!!!!!! ;-) !!!!! (-: s, !!!!! %$&*%^ !!!!!! (just to make backtothegrindstone feel at home).
mngmt mole is offline  

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