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How to Negotiate

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

How to Negotiate

Old 1st May 2018, 02:14
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Never You Mind
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How to Negotiate

This video is about buying cars so whenever he mentions a car just mentally insert CoS, enjoy.

Mill Worker is offline  
Old 1st May 2018, 09:43
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 186
The AOA must make it explicitly clear to the company and the members that no agreement will be presented to the membership for consideration which would cost any pilot $, housing, COS to implement.

The company received legal advice that they couldn't change housing without agreement. Even though the company calls housing a 'policy', it has been in place for so long that in effect it is a COS.

The company will now be waiting for enough C Scalers to vote for a deal which would see an improvement to HKPA at the expense of the B Scale housing package. The company is waiting for 50 + 1. It must be made clear that this will not be allowed to work.

The company will have to increase HKPA anyway as the turnover of SOs and FOs is costing them too much. Recruitment is at a critical point. We have staff quitting for been told to meet impossible targets and those recruits who do show up have been failing the SIM check (so the SIM check has been made easier).
controlledrest is offline  
Old 1st May 2018, 12:59
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
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Originally Posted by controlledrest View Post
The company received legal advice that they couldn't change housing without agreement.
Source? That would be an important bit of info if it were confirmed.
main_dog is offline  
Old 1st May 2018, 13:29
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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In the mean time an EY330 skipper got hired as FO at UAL.

One should ask why 99% of the ex AA guys went back. Some were here on the left seat as well.

Think about this way: every time you are at despatch, about to go to work or returning from it, AT, DP etc. come down the stairs with 5-6 body builders looking guys heavily armed and take money out of your pockets.
poydras is offline  
Old 2nd May 2018, 07:38
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: with the other ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
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Captain Dart is offline  
Old 2nd May 2018, 14:06
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
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Originally Posted by Captain Dart View Post
This is what happenes when you treat your pliots like crap...they leave and they tell their friends not to join!!!

Their 150 pilots shortage will not be sorted out until they sort the managgment out. Same as CX more and more will leave!
Frogman1484 is offline  
Old 2nd May 2018, 19:08
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Anna. I just landed from a European port. Thought you might like to know, both FO's leaving. SO also leaving as soon as he has his QF position confirmed. For your accounting purposes, that makes 11 pilots I have flown with in the month of April that confirmed to me that they are leaving. I am one (1) Captain, and 11 random crew over the month are going. Not at some nebulous point in the future, but imminently. All experienced, and even the relatively inexperienced SO says he can't wait to get away from here. You and your management seem to be living in "LaLaLand". I suggest you use these negotiations to satisfy the career expectations of ALL your crew, or that 11 will seem a drop in the ocean by the end of next year.
Apple Tree Yard is offline  
Old 2nd May 2018, 19:12
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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...and btw, the SO told me that he "would rather drink cyanide than have drinks with you or your kind".... quote.
Apple Tree Yard is offline  
Old 2nd May 2018, 22:02
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
Think it's time to go fishin

Or huntin

Or water skiin

Or hikin

Too nice outside to be cooped up in a room with folks not ready to make a deal.

Maybe call back later in the summer and get together then for a howgozit

Or sometime downline when the company is really ready to make a deal.
Shep69 is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 00:54
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 558
Exactly right Shep... perhaps our reps should be strolling into the negotiating room with a cooler, rods and fishing tackle just to send a clearer message.
main_dog is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 00:58
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
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I am sure that a “generous and conciliatory” (according to the company propagandist) will be made early on to get them through the hump of crew shortage this summer and have them flop over the line into the new sodomised patterns of the CMP, which they believe will save them through its instant productivity gains. Expect short term sweeteners and no long term structural change.

NO CONCESSIONS, the AOA leverage can only increase over the summer.
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 01:07
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Join Date: May 2011
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No Clause 7

yeah. And NO clause 7. We will not sacrifice the ability to go back into CC and TB for ONE STINKING DAY.
plainpilot11 is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 03:08
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Hong Kong
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I don’t understand people’s problem with clause 7. It’s the only thing we should be willing to give them for an agreement when we give up CC and TB they are dead anyway and will not give leverage in the future.
Brokeidiot is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 03:25
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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Plus the clause 7 only prevented the aoa leaders from organising CC/TB. Couldn't stop if it was put forward by the members
TurningFinalRWY36 is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 03:35
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 50
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This whole negotiation is a front.

The GC will have to sit through it because any walk away early, will be twisted in the media to bash the pilots for being difficult and spoilt brats. It will be the public reason flights are cancelled or orders delayed. It will also be the reason upgrades will not be accelerated and used as a tool to divide and conqour the group. The company is flogging the business situation while it can.

It's all BS.

Nothing will ever change.

If they don't know what we want by now after HPE then what is the point of this sham of a negotiation.

Utter BS. Is all iican say.

They have already said there is no money for us and further reinforced it with an update on the business situation on the first day of negotiations.

If it looks like it! If it smells like it! then it's sure as [email protected]#?… going to taste like it.... So why would you even put your finger in and have a try.....Jesus.....
RAT Management is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 06:22
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 290
This is way beyond RPs now, we have to claw back every piece of loose wording that allows CX to basically screw with your life for an entire career. They need to pay every time they juggle your life when they see fit, wether it's short term throwing reserve at you or long term leaving you stuck on a fleet that absolutely sucks and everything in between. As soon as it cost them money they'll stop doing it and perhaps we can have some sort and long term stability and plan a long term future and lifestyle with the ability to move fleets as our age and family change over possibly 30+ years.

It's now or never, we will never be in a position to fix the wrongs done over the past several decades. Some half arsed solution that ends CC will mean a career at CX/KA is truly over, shiny Jets will get them in the door and rusty seniority hand cuffs will keep you here! While the hits will keep coming relentlessly!
Avinthenews is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 06:28
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Join Date: May 2018
Location: US
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I can't post a link yet but look up the song "Toes" by the Zac Brown Band. This song seems to fit the situation and how most of us don't really care anymore. Just substitute Cathay for GA and it fits.

This line seems very fitting...

"Adiós and vaya con Dios
Going home now to stay
The senoritas don't care-o when there's no dinero
I've got no money to stay"
Magnum Ursus is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 12:16
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: CYYZ
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Air France grounds one 787 over union pilot training conflict


Apr 27, 2018 Helen Massy-Beres

Air France said it would be forced to ground one of its new Boeing 787 aircraft and reduce its flight frequency from Paris to Guangzhou, China over a disagreement with its main pilot union the SNPL about pilot training.

The news comes as Air France is locked in a wider conflict with its unions over pay: the airline group has launched a company-wide staff consultation on its latest pay proposal in a bid to break the deadlock, but three unions have called for a further four days of strike action on May 3, 4, 7 and 8, which would bring the total number of days of strike action in recent weeks to 15.

From May 2, the carrier will operate 3X-weekly to Guangzhou from its Charles de Gaulle hub, instead of five, using a Boeing 777 on the route to replace the 787, a spokesman said.

That involves canceling nine flights or 40% of its services over the month, but because the 777 has a larger capacity, equates to only a 17% reduction in seat capacity, the spokesman added.

The airline has made the changes to its schedule for a month initially but needs the SNPL to agree to renew an agreement allowing for 777 instructors to train 787 pilots to ensure more flights and aircraft are not affected.

Helen Massy-Beresford, [email protected]
Sea Eggs is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 13:09
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: in time anda space
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fleet forum

Just did a Fleet forum. A Greg H came in to talk to us. Apparently he has been helicoptered in to help turn the titanic around.

What a [email protected]#$ing moron. The guy is clueless. He is a small insecure man who can't handle being challenged.

Abandon ship everyone, with an idiot like that in charge there is no hope.
Hiro Nakimura is offline  
Old 3rd May 2018, 14:33
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
Not that hard.

Union gives a list of specifics and says here is what we require (which reflects a realistic retroactive inflationary adjustment as well as RPs--although RP-07 is not all that much different than RP-16 and neither are very strong documents). Perhaps add an extra 5% for some wiggle room back down to baseline in pay to 'compromise'. Restoration of 13th month and housing certainty an absolute requirement; without that a non-starter. And probably shore up the 13th month (and some other stuff) in concrete so folks can't be screwed in the future.

Company says 'cannot'

Union says 'well, give us a call when you can'

Then off fishin'

I don't like to name call personally. I believe there have been some grossly poor decisions made, but these decisions made I think were made not understanding the backlash they would create. Or the true damage a 'rolling reserve' scheduling process can do to an airline (where rosters are more placeholders than anything else). There is good reason most majors have 'owned' rosters backfilled with real reserve assets.

IMHO the 'hedging loss' and other chicanery is simply a red herring and ruse. In any case, it's not something we base OUR decision making process around.

IMHO, the company loves to play 'stupid.' IMHO they also like to warp the truth.

Problem is when you do either you can't really figure out if someone really IS stupid or is pretending, or is telling the truth or lying. So this doesn't work that well regardless. And you create a void of trust which cannot be easily fixed.

IMHO they also love the fat chick bait and switch; where they promise and stall to get them through gaps then right back to bizness as usual. Stall, stall, stall.

So absent a concrete yes, it's time to walk away. And go do something fun.

But probably not go to a rigged carnival game. It'll remind you too much of work.
Shep69 is offline  

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